BoxRec

In sports in which performance is measured todays athletes outperform all the old-timers. I find it very bizarre that people would favor guys from Johnson's era when records show modern athletes to be faster and stronger than their predecessors.
This seems to go against the most basic logic.

Jack Johnson was tiny compared to the heavyweights of today and some of todays big men are very athletic with good hand speed.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:In sports in which performance is measured todays athletes outperform all the old-timers. I find it very bizarre that people would favor guys from Johnson's era when records show modern athletes to be faster and stronger than their predecessors.
This seems to go against the most basic logic.

Maybe we should have a thread specifically for this topic where the debate could be played ou,t seems to be coming up alot lately.

dempseyfire

Did you read what I wrote about Johnson's lack of an amateur background? You can't compare a fighter's early record from 1900 to one in the 1990s . . .COMPLETELY different situation. Fritz Sdunek is a very good trainer, and Klitschko was fed a huge bunch of stuff for over 30 pro fights before slightly stepping it up. Johnson couldn't have done that if you wanted to. Back then you got no money until you began beating recognized, quality fighters. Especially if you were black. Simple as that.

Yes, I read it. Are you aware Johnson participated in various battle royals prior to facing Choynski? Also you claim McVey had some un-recorded fights prior to meeting Johnson. I think you're right, which is why you should agree with me that Johnson also had some un-recorded fight before getting Ko'd by a past his prime light heavyweight. Johnson's trainer was the same man who trained Peter Jackson. Sdunek was an amateur type of trainer in the early stages of Vlad's career. His advice is rudimentary at best.

How do you know Johnson didn't hit as hard as Brewster or Sanders? I've read numerous accounts of Johnson's punching ability. I've never heard anyone say he was a light hitter.

Because I have seen Brewster land more impressive blows and cleanly knocks guys out. Johnson had to pound on Burns, and old man Jim Jeffries before hurting either of them. He took bums like Ross the distance. If Brewster fought the same group of white hopes, he Ko's them far sooner. Johnson’s title reign re-defined what ducking is. He did not face the best black or white contenders as champion. If you really think Johnson hits as hard as Brewster, the forum is you’re to present your point of view.

Williard actually used his height and reach and relied his whole gameplan on the left jab. No he wasn't as well-skilled or fluid as Klitschko but he was also a lot more durable and had much better stamina.

I don't dispute this. I just dispute that Johnson threw enough punches or pressed the action enough to question Wlad's stamina.

Wlad can't be countered from the outside? Did you see the Sanders fight? Wlad also has no uppercut so all he can do is hope to grab Johnson fast enough so he can't do anything. Johnson is much quicker and shiftier than Brewster.

Yes I saw the fight. Sanders is completely different from Johnson. He's very big, very aggressive and hits harder from the South paw angle. Johnson’s hand speed is not significantly better or even better than Sanders. Sanders is also a south paw. Sandes did not counter Wlad, he went right at him, caught him cold, then took him out. Johnson gives up 6” in reach, up 6" in height and 50 pounds in weight vs Vlad. How many uppercuts did Johnson land on the 6'6" Willard? I have seen the films. I can not recall one. It is not so easy to land an uppercut on an opponent who is 6" taller. I think your intention here is good, but in terms of style and physics of boxing your conclusions have room for improvement.

Johnson never said Hart whipped him . . and Nat Fleisher said it was a robbery!!!! Where are you getting this from????

In his bio, in and Out of the Ring, Johnson flat out admitted losing to Hart. Nat Fleisher, who coincidentally was Johnson biggest fan wrote that Johnson tired badly down the stretch vs Hart. Sometimes the truth about boxing legends does not coincide with popular myth.

Johnson was versatile . . .he could fight long drawn out fights, or start quick and be aggressive (as he did in the Martin and Mcvey rematches). Frank Moran, very much a power puncher, landed his best shots on Johnson and Jack laughed in his face. Funny, every time someone lands flush on Wlad he stumbles like a pupper and grabs on for dear life.

Upon further thinking it might take longer but no doubt Johnson wins by KO before the 8th round

.

Versatile you say? How so? Johnson is relitively stationary on film, doesn't throw many combinations, had no hook, and had a relatively low guard. Johnson used tactics that would get him docked points or booed out of the ring in modern times. I speak of his numerous clinching, which also involved hitting and holding. If you watch the entire Moran vs Johnson fight, you will see it is close. The moment you speak of it but a clip on Unfrogivable Blackness. Moran was nothing special. Johnson should have fought Gunboat Smtih instead. Except Smith was too good to be a white hope. Indeed, he defeated Willard and Moran, and also knocked Johnson out of the ring in a sparring session. Johnson never gave a re-match to draws vs Light heavy O'Brien, nor did he give Jim Johnson a re-match when Jack Johsnon quit in round 10 of a 20 round fight. It might surpise you to know that Papa Jack in fact quit once before that vs Klondike Haines.

It unlikely that Johnson could take Vlad's power shots. He certainly did not hit as hard as Brewster or Sanders, nor did he have the right type of style to expedite Vlad's questionable stamina. Any way you slice it, Johnson is not likely to win this one.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:In sports in which performance is measured todays athletes outperform all the old-timers. I find it very bizarre that people would favor guys from Johnson's era when records show modern athletes to be faster and stronger than their predecessors.
This seems to go against the most basic logic.

Jack Johnson was tiny compared to the heavyweights of today and some of todays big men are very athletic with good hand speed.

Point well taken, but each fighter is an indivual case. I do think that Jack Dempsey would beat Vlad eaisly because unlike Johnson he had the punch, results vs large heavies, and style to do so.

pound per pound wrote:

dempseyfire

Did you read what I wrote about Johnson's lack of an amateur background? You can't compare a fighter's early record from 1900 to one in the 1990s . . .COMPLETELY different situation. Fritz Sdunek is a very good trainer, and Klitschko was fed a huge bunch of stuff for over 30 pro fights before slightly stepping it up. Johnson couldn't have done that if you wanted to. Back then you got no money until you began beating recognized, quality fighters. Especially if you were black. Simple as that.

Yes, I read it. Are you aware Johnson participated in various battle royals prior to facing Choynski? Also you claim McVey had some un-recorded fights prior to meeting Johnson. I think you're right, which is why you should agree with me that Johnson also had some un-recorded fight before getting Ko'd by a past his prime light heavyweight. Johnson's trainer was the same man who trained Peter Jackson. Sdunek was an amateur type of trainer in the early stages of Vlad's career. His advice is rudimentary at best.

How do you know Johnson didn't hit as hard as Brewster or Sanders? I've read numerous accounts of Johnson's punching ability. I've never heard anyone say he was a light hitter.

Because I have seen Brewster land more impressive blows and cleanly knocks guys out. Johnson had to pound on Burns, and old man Jim Jeffries before hurting either of them. He took bums like Ross the distance. If Brewster fought the same group of white hopes, he Ko's them far sooner. Johnson’s title reign re-defined what ducking is. He did not face the best black or white contenders as champion. If you really think Johnson hits as hard as Brewster, the forum is you’re to present your point of view.

Williard actually used his height and reach and relied his whole gameplan on the left jab. No he wasn't as well-skilled or fluid as Klitschko but he was also a lot more durable and had much better stamina.

I don't dispute this. I just dispute that Johnson threw enough punches or pressed the action enough to question Wlad's stamina.

Wlad can't be countered from the outside? Did you see the Sanders fight? Wlad also has no uppercut so all he can do is hope to grab Johnson fast enough so he can't do anything. Johnson is much quicker and shiftier than Brewster.

Yes I saw the fight. Sanders is completely different from Johnson. He's very big, very aggressive and hits harder from the South paw angle. Johnson’s hand speed is not significantly better or even better than Sanders. Sanders is also a south paw. Sandes did not counter Wlad, he went right at him, caught him cold, then took him out. Johnson gives up 6” in reach, up 6" in height and 50 pounds in weight vs Vlad. How many uppercuts did Johnson land on the 6'6" Willard? I have seen the films. I can not recall one. It is not so easy to land an uppercut on an opponent who is 6" taller. I think your intention here is good, but in terms of style and physics of boxing your conclusions have room for improvement.

Johnson never said Hart whipped him . . and Nat Fleisher said it was a robbery!!!! Where are you getting this from????

In his bio, in and Out of the Ring, Johnson flat out admitted losing to Hart. Nat Fleisher, who coincidentally was Johnson biggest fan wrote that Johnson tired badly down the stretch vs Hart. Sometimes the truth about boxing legends does not coincide with popular myth.

Johnson was versatile . . .he could fight long drawn out fights, or start quick and be aggressive (as he did in the Martin and Mcvey rematches). Frank Moran, very much a power puncher, landed his best shots on Johnson and Jack laughed in his face. Funny, every time someone lands flush on Wlad he stumbles like a pupper and grabs on for dear life.

Upon further thinking it might take longer but no doubt Johnson wins by KO before the 8th round

.

Versatile you say? How so? Johnson is relitively stationary on film, doesn't throw many combinations, had no hook, and had a relatively low guard. Johnson used tactics that would get him docked points or booed out of the ring in modern times. I speak of his numerous clinching, which also involved hitting and holding. If you watch the entire Moran vs Johnson fight, you will see it is close. The moment you speak of it but a clip on Unfrogivable Blackness. Moran was nothing special. Johnson should have fought Gunboat Smtih instead. Except Smith was too good to be a white hope. Indeed, he defeated Willard and Moran, and also knocked Johnson out of the ring in a sparring session. Johnson never gave a re-match to draws vs Light heavy O'Brien, nor did he give Jim Johnson a re-match when Jack Johsnon quit in round 10 of a 20 round fight. It might surpise you to know that Papa Jack in fact quit once before that vs Klondike Haines.

It unlikely that Johnson could take Vlad's power shots. He certainly did not hit as hard as Brewster or Sanders, nor did he have the right type of style to expedite Vlad's questionable stamina. Any way you slice it, Johnson is not likely to win this one.

I said Wlad had no uppercut. Didn't mention if Johnson would land an uppercut on Wlad or not. The best way to deter a smaller opponent from coming inside is the uppercut, and Wlad, a tall fighter, doesn't even employ that weapon.

Battle royales are now equivalent to years and years of Soviet amateur experience and training???? OK. That makes a lot of sense.

You are exaggerating the stats. Wlad is 6'6, 240. Johnson was, according to various sources, around 6'1. At his best vs Ketchel and Jefferies a solid and trim 210. That's 30 lbs difference. Brewster is also 6'1 and a chubby 225. Lean and mean he'd easily be under 215. Sanders as well is talla t 6'4 but in shape would be 215 or less.

Did Sander's and Brewster's 10 lbs of fat ensure them victory vs Klitscko? Wlad has reach and height advantages in this matchup as he would in many but that is not deciding this fight.

Johnson had a broken arm vs Johnson, not even his distractors will point to that charade as some loss like you are implying (same with O'Brian . . Johnson didn't try but no-one thought if he'd taken it seriously he would've lost . . .thus why no-one cared to see a rematch). Gunboat Smith actually avoided Johnson. Read the print. He stated that "Johnson will wait" Despite decking Jack (only from his mouth will you hear that he knocked him cold . . .I am very cynical), he knew Johnson owned him.

Anyway, Smith had a good run until he lost several times to Jim Coffey . . .who went on to lose several times to . . .Frank Moran. Your logic then that Johnson picked Moran to avoid Smith is hogwash.

For those who say that Klitscko is only vulnerable to big puncher please answer this:
Who is the best fighter that Purrity knocked out besides Klitschko?
Who is the best fighter that Sanders knocked out besides Klitschko?
Who is the best fighter that Brewster knocked out besides Klitschko?

None of these of guys would have reputations of being big punchers if they hadn't fought Klitschko.

Jack Johnson certainly hit as hard as these guys. He was also much more accurrate than these guys. There is no reason to think that Johnson couldn't knockout Klistchko.

dempseyfire

I said Wlad had no uppercut. Didn't mention if Johnson would land an uppercut on Wlad or not. The best way to deter a smaller opponent from coming inside is the uppercut, and Wlad, a tall fighter, doesn't even employ that weapon.

Battle royales are now equivalent to years and years of Soviet amateur experience and training???? OK. That makes a lot of sense.

You are exaggerating the stats. Wlad is 6'6, 240. Johnson was, according to various sources, around 6'1. At his best vs Ketchel and Jefferies a solid and trim 210. That's 30 lbs difference. Brewster is also 6'1 and a chubby 225. Lean and mean he'd easily be under 215. Sanders as well is talla t 6'4 but in shape would be 215 or less.

Did Sander's and Brewster's 10 lbs of fat ensure them victory vs Klitscko? Wlad has reach and height advantages in this matchup as he would in many but that is not deciding this fight.

Johnson had a broken arm vs Johnson, not even his distractors will point to that charade as some loss like you are implying (same with O'Brian . . Johnson didn't try but no-one thought if he'd taken it seriously he would've lost . . .thus why no-one cared to see a rematch). Gunboat Smith actually avoided Johnson. Read the print. He stated that "Johnson will wait" Despite decking Jack (only from his mouth will you hear that he knocked him cold . . .I am very cynical), he knew Johnson owned him.

Anyway, Smith had a good run until he lost several times to Jim Coffey . . .who went on to lose several times to . . .Frank Moran. Your logic then that Johnson picked Moran to avoid Smith is hogwash.

The best way to keep a smaller fight away is to jab and hit him on the way in with a cross, then tie up and push off again, not use the uppercut. Who told you it was the other way around?

You're giving out too many excuses for Johnson. If he was a skilled as you say there is no fuss whatsoever in his results. He didn't try there, he wasn't healthy here. This is hearsay. Let's talk about the films. The films have a way of revealing the truth.

Vlad does not use an uppercut often, but since he has a tremendous knock out percentage...better than Foreman, Tyson or Joe Louis, does he really need to master this punch? For a moment ponder what if Vlad resume was littered with middle weights or light heavyweights. Oh, and give him those 6 oz glove too increase his power even more.

I am not exaggerating the tale of the tape between Vlad and Johnson. It’s a blow out even if you want to use one of Johnson's career high weights. On film, Johnson best performance is vs Burns, and Johnson is less than 200 pounds for the fight.

If your objective, you will embrace my point on GunboatSmith being viewed as too risky for Johnson as valid.

First off, GuboatSmith never lost to Coffey while Johnson was champion. In fact, he beat Coffey 1914 while Johnson was champion.

We need to review who Gunboat fought while Johnson was champion:

1912 - Defeats Moran
1913 - Defeats Willard
1913 - Defeats Flynn
1913 - Defeats Ross
1913 - Defeats Langford -Gasp

Johnson offered Moran, Willard, Flynn, and Ross title shots, but not Gunboat who beat them more decisively than Johnson! Think about that for a moment then tell me why Gunboat Smith never got a shot. While Johnson was champ Gunboat Smtih was likely the best white contender out there. The difference is, he was not a " white hope ". He had ability and might have tken the title. The quote you give is eyewash at best since Johnson paid Gunboat as his sparring partner. Sparring partners are eager to make the guy paying them look good. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. In fact you lie to make him look good.

pound per pound wrote:

dempseyfire

I said Wlad had no uppercut. Didn't mention if Johnson would land an uppercut on Wlad or not. The best way to deter a smaller opponent from coming inside is the uppercut, and Wlad, a tall fighter, doesn't even employ that weapon.

Battle royales are now equivalent to years and years of Soviet amateur experience and training???? OK. That makes a lot of sense.

You are exaggerating the stats. Wlad is 6'6, 240. Johnson was, according to various sources, around 6'1. At his best vs Ketchel and Jefferies a solid and trim 210. That's 30 lbs difference. Brewster is also 6'1 and a chubby 225. Lean and mean he'd easily be under 215. Sanders as well is talla t 6'4 but in shape would be 215 or less.

Did Sander's and Brewster's 10 lbs of fat ensure them victory vs Klitscko? Wlad has reach and height advantages in this matchup as he would in many but that is not deciding this fight.

Johnson had a broken arm vs Johnson, not even his distractors will point to that charade as some loss like you are implying (same with O'Brian . . Johnson didn't try but no-one thought if he'd taken it seriously he would've lost . . .thus why no-one cared to see a rematch). Gunboat Smith actually avoided Johnson. Read the print. He stated that "Johnson will wait" Despite decking Jack (only from his mouth will you hear that he knocked him cold . . .I am very cynical), he knew Johnson owned him.

Anyway, Smith had a good run until he lost several times to Jim Coffey . . .who went on to lose several times to . . .Frank Moran. Your logic then that Johnson picked Moran to avoid Smith is hogwash.

The best way to keep a smaller fight away is to jab and hit him on the way in with a cross, then tie up and push off again, not use the uppercut. Who told you it was the other way around?

You're giving out too many excuses for Johnson. If he was a skilled as you say there is no fuss whatsoever in his results. He didn't try there, he wasn't healthy here. This is hearsay. Let's talk about the films. The films have a way of revealing the truth.

Vlad does not use an uppercut often, but since he has a tremendous knock out percentage...better than Foreman, Tyson or Joe Louis, does he really need to master this punch? For a moment ponder what if Vlad resume was littered with middle weights or light heavyweights. Oh, and give him those 6 oz glove too increase his power even more.

I am not exaggerating the tale of the tape between Vlad and Johnson. It’s a blow out even if you want to use one of Johnson's career high weights. On film, Johnson best performance is vs Burns, and Johnson is less than 200 pounds for the fight.

If your objective, you will embrace my point on GunboatSmith being viewed as too risky for Johnson as valid.

First off, GuboatSmith never lost to Coffey while Johnson was champion. In fact, he beat Coffey 1914 while Johnson was champion.

We need to review who Gunboat fought while Johnson was champion:

1912 - Defeats Moran
1913 - Defeats Willard
1913 - Defeats Flynn
1913 - Defeats Ross
1913 - Defeats Langford -Gasp

Johnson offered Moran, Willard, Flynn, and Ross title shots, but not Gunboat who beat them more decisively than Johnson! Think about that for a moment then tell me why Gunboat Smith never got a shot. While Johnson was champ Gunboat Smtih was likely the best white contender out there. The difference is, he was not a " white hope ". He had ability and might have tken the title. The quote you give is eyewash at best since Johnson paid Gunboat as his sparring partner. Sparring partners are eager to make the guy paying them look good. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. In fact you lie to make him look good.

Oh yes, hand cranked films with ridiculous film speeds will reveal all.

YEs Johnson was 192 for Burns, but as the FILMS don't lie you can see him on film weighing 210 vs Jefferies and Ketchel and the guy is positively ripped. He was a 200 lb plus HW at his best. His career highs were well over the 220s, and even at 220 vs Moran he looks a lot fitter than most of today's HWs.

Umm, also Smith was considered a "white Hope" . . .he even held the "White HW title" for awhile. If he was so high above the other White Hopes he wouldn't have lost to a number of them.

If you are tall, yes, jabbing and right crosses are good. What if your opponent slips those as he's moving inside?? You throw an UPPERCUT. I boxed for many years. If you try to grab your opponent everytime he gets close, you are playing a risky game. That's what got Wlad in trouble vs Peter . . he stuck his arms out, ducked his head, and then got clocked right in the back of the head. And if you are fighting a guy with good handspeed, you might taste a couple before you get a good handle on your opponent.
Wlad has gotten away with a lot of crap b/c he's fought mostly slow-footed, one dimensional opponents.

KO percentages in boxing mean nothing. This isn't baseball. Brian Nielson had a great record. Lamar Clark holds a few KO records but I don't see him brought up discussing the greatest punchers.

Anyone that thinks that Wlad would beat Johnson is retarded. All the steriods and nutrition in the world will not make your chin better, Wlad has no chin and if the slow plodding Peter can connect then Johnson will ko him in 8 rounds easily.

dempseyfire wrote:

pound per pound wrote:

dempseyfire

I said Wlad had no uppercut. Didn't mention if Johnson would land an uppercut on Wlad or not. The best way to deter a smaller opponent from coming inside is the uppercut, and Wlad, a tall fighter, doesn't even employ that weapon.

Battle royales are now equivalent to years and years of Soviet amateur experience and training???? OK. That makes a lot of sense.

You are exaggerating the stats. Wlad is 6'6, 240. Johnson was, according to various sources, around 6'1. At his best vs Ketchel and Jefferies a solid and trim 210. That's 30 lbs difference. Brewster is also 6'1 and a chubby 225. Lean and mean he'd easily be under 215. Sanders as well is talla t 6'4 but in shape would be 215 or less.

Did Sander's and Brewster's 10 lbs of fat ensure them victory vs Klitscko? Wlad has reach and height advantages in this matchup as he would in many but that is not deciding this fight.

Johnson had a broken arm vs Johnson, not even his distractors will point to that charade as some loss like you are implying (same with O'Brian . . Johnson didn't try but no-one thought if he'd taken it seriously he would've lost . . .thus why no-one cared to see a rematch). Gunboat Smith actually avoided Johnson. Read the print. He stated that "Johnson will wait" Despite decking Jack (only from his mouth will you hear that he knocked him cold . . .I am very cynical), he knew Johnson owned him.

Anyway, Smith had a good run until he lost several times to Jim Coffey . . .who went on to lose several times to . . .Frank Moran. Your logic then that Johnson picked Moran to avoid Smith is hogwash.

The best way to keep a smaller fight away is to jab and hit him on the way in with a cross, then tie up and push off again, not use the uppercut. Who told you it was the other way around?

You're giving out too many excuses for Johnson. If he was a skilled as you say there is no fuss whatsoever in his results. He didn't try there, he wasn't healthy here. This is hearsay. Let's talk about the films. The films have a way of revealing the truth.

Vlad does not use an uppercut often, but since he has a tremendous knock out percentage...better than Foreman, Tyson or Joe Louis, does he really need to master this punch? For a moment ponder what if Vlad resume was littered with middle weights or light heavyweights. Oh, and give him those 6 oz glove too increase his power even more.

I am not exaggerating the tale of the tape between Vlad and Johnson. It’s a blow out even if you want to use one of Johnson's career high weights. On film, Johnson best performance is vs Burns, and Johnson is less than 200 pounds for the fight.

If your objective, you will embrace my point on GunboatSmith being viewed as too risky for Johnson as valid.

First off, GuboatSmith never lost to Coffey while Johnson was champion. In fact, he beat Coffey 1914 while Johnson was champion.

We need to review who Gunboat fought while Johnson was champion:

1912 - Defeats Moran
1913 - Defeats Willard
1913 - Defeats Flynn
1913 - Defeats Ross
1913 - Defeats Langford -Gasp

Johnson offered Moran, Willard, Flynn, and Ross title shots, but not Gunboat who beat them more decisively than Johnson! Think about that for a moment then tell me why Gunboat Smith never got a shot. While Johnson was champ Gunboat Smtih was likely the best white contender out there. The difference is, he was not a " white hope ". He had ability and might have tken the title. The quote you give is eyewash at best since Johnson paid Gunboat as his sparring partner. Sparring partners are eager to make the guy paying them look good. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. In fact you lie to make him look good.

Dempseyfire Oh yes, hand cranked films with ridiculous film speeds will reveal all.

Yes Johnson was 192 for Burns, but as the FILMS don't lie you can see him on film weighing 210 vs Jefferies and Ketchel and the guy is positively ripped. He was a 200 lb plus HW at his best. His career highs were well over the 220s, and even at 220 vs Moran he looks a lot fitter than most of today's HWs

While the old films lack detail and sometimes run fast or slow, one can still see that Johnson style was that of a fighter who did not throw many punches. The punch stats would reveal an inactive fighter. In some rounds Johnson threw less than 20 punches. The film also reveals that Johnson was off balance at times, and even slipped or fell to the canvas. Since you mentioned you have boxed, I feel the need to mention that I have too. Johnson is wide open to straight shots because he has a low guard and is mostly stationary. Just because he can get out of the way of a wild swinging 5'9" opponent does not mean his defense would translate well outside his own era. If you really want to talk about what is on film, I'm game. I can interpret what happened regardless is the film is hand cranked or not.

As for the weight issue, more is not better. It all depends on the body frame. Johnson in the 220's is not a better fighter than Johnson at 200. If you fatten him up so he's only giving up 25 pounds or so, you are in fact making his chances worse in a fantasy fight.

Umm, also Smith was considered a "white Hope" . . .he even held the "White HW title" for awhile. If he was so high above the other White Hopes he wouldn't have lost to a number of them.

Do you agree with my assessment that Gunboat Smith defiantly deserved a title shot based on who he defeated? Yes or no? It seems that the men Smith defeated all got title shots from Johnson. Smith earend a shot before Moran or Willard because he beat them both, and beat more impressive opponets while Johnson was champion.

If you are tall, yes, jabbing and right crosses are good. What if your opponent slips those as he's moving inside?? You throw an UPPERCUT. I boxed for many years. If you try to grab your opponent everytime he gets close, you are playing a risky game. That's what got Wlad in trouble vs Peter . . he stuck his arms out, ducked his head, and then got clocked right in the back of the head. And if you are fighting a guy with good handspeed, you might taste a couple before you get a good handle on your opponent. Wlad has gotten away with a lot of crap b/c he's fought mostly slow-footed, one dimensional opponents.

The damage Peter did one inside were mostly foul shots to the back of the head. I have seen Vald's fights. Getting past that jab is very difficult, and those that do are extremely gun shy of that laser like right hand. The height, reach, weight, and style of Chris Byrd are close enough matches to that of Jack Johnson. Vlad dominated Byrd. Byrd was known for defense. There was little he could do. Johnson would have the same problems, except he did not throw as many punches as Byrd, and likely did not have as good as a chin as Byrd has. The only fighter who jumped on Wlad early and hurt him was Sanders, which as I explained above was completely different from Johnson. You only hope is to diminish Vlad's opponents. I beleive the fighters Vlad fought in title matches were better as a group than the fighters Johnson fought in his title matches.

KO percentages in boxing mean nothing. This isn't baseball. Brian Nielson had a great record. Lamar Clark holds a few KO records but I don't see him brought up discussing the greatest punchers.

KO percentages mean something. I think we all know there is a difference between Nielson and Clarks opponents in comparison to Vlad's. We are comparing elite level fighters here. There is no need to muddy the waters. When its all said and done, Vlad will go down as one of the best heavyweight punchers.

pound per pound wrote:Vlad does not use an uppercut often, but since he has a tremendous knock out percentage...better than Foreman, Tyson or Joe Louis.

pound per pound wrote:

dempsyfire wrote:KO percentages in boxing mean nothing. This isn't baseball. Brian Nielson had a great record. Lamar Clark holds a few KO records but I don't see him brought up discussing the greatest punchers.

KO percentages mean something. I think we all know there is a difference between Nielson and Clarks opponents in comparison to Vlad's. We are comparing elite level fighters here. There is no need to muddy the waters. When its all said and done, Vlad will go down as one of the best heavyweight punchers.

Well Foreman stopped guys like Chuvalo and Frazier, who's the most durable guy Wlad has stopped? 41 year old Ray Mercer? Come on, you can't really be saying Wlad's KO record is comparable, the only top ten heavyweight Wlad has stopped is Chris Byrd.

J-C wrote:]

Well Foreman stopped guys like Chuvalo and Frazier, who's the most durable guy Wlad has stopped? 41 year old Ray Mercer? Come on, you can't really be saying Wlad's KO record is comparable, the only top ten heavyweight Wlad has stopped is Chris Byrd.

JC,

Foreman was a heck of a puncher. For arguments sake, a bit better than Vlad. However if you look at it from top to bottom, Foreman fought more marks. It’s true.

Vlad has Ko'd quite a few top ten heavyweights. Byrd, McCline, Brock, and Barret were top ten ranked heavies by box rec / fight news / ring magazine when Vlad knocked them out.

Shcultz, Jackson and Botha all fought for titles. Vlad knocked them out too.

I don't want to start another thread here between Vald and Foreman. This is a Vlad vs Johnson thread.

Ben Keilty wrote:Anyone that thinks that Wlad would beat Johnson is retarded. All the steriods and nutrition in the world will not make your chin better, Wlad has no chin and if the slow plodding Peter can connect then Johnson will ko him in 8 rounds easily.

Well,I guess i'm retarded,and for the record,since you want to be such a dick about it,I guess anyone named "Ben Keilty"must have aspirations of being Jack Johnson's personal boy-toy.We're having a good,solid debate,"respectfully" amongst all of us,you see no such name calling,yet you choose to,STRIKE 1:watch yourself Ben Keilty,folks don't take kindly to being called names,especially when they've only been respectful.Now get up off your knees,and wipe your chin,some of Jack Johnson is dribbling out your mouth.
zuru

zuru wrote:

Ben Keilty wrote:Anyone that thinks that Wlad would beat Johnson is retarded. All the steriods and nutrition in the world will not make your chin better, Wlad has no chin and if the slow plodding Peter can connect then Johnson will ko him in 8 rounds easily.

Well,I guess i'm retarded,and for the record,since you want to be such a dick about it,I guess anyone named "Ben Keilty"must have aspirations of being Jack Johnson's personal boy-toy.We're having a good,solid debate,"respectfully" amongst all of us,you see no such name calling,yet you choose to,STRIKE 1:watch yourself Ben Keilty,folks don't take kindly to being called names,especially when they've only been respectful.Now get up off your knees,and wipe your chin,some of Jack Johnson is dribbling out your mouth.
zuru

Retard

Johnson, by KO

I just cant see how anyone can see Wlad beating an all time great with his suspect chin. Imagine if they still used the same gloves today as they did in Johnsons day Wlad would have been KOd about a dozen times
Wlad for all his attacking ability hasn't got the stamina or chin to last against any of the top 25 heavyweights of all time and especially not Jack Johnson.

It's pretty depressing reading through this thread...

zuru wrote:Johnson gets kept on the end of a long heavy jab,unable to get inside,taking LOTS of punishment.The "organ-grinder"shuffle that he used so cleverly against the heavy-footed plodders,has no effect, as Klitschko keeps the piston like jab pumping and begins mixing in long right hands,along with chopping hooks.The fight ends up being a one-sided,righthanded version of the Chris Byrd fight,and a battered Johnson doesn't come out for the 14th rd,Klitschko by a late t.k.o.

Johnson was one of the finest defensive fighters that ever lived, so I cannot see him taking lots of punishment.

WK is not in the same league a Johnson was.

Lots of HW's had great jab (Pinklon Thomas had one of the best), but that does not necessarily equate to them beating fighters of Johnson's ilk.

Johnson by KO in about 10.

WK's chin is not the greatest.

Syntax Error wrote:Lots of HW's had great jab (Pinklon Thomas had one of the best), but that does not necessarily equate to them beating fighters of Johnson's ilk.

And Wlad does NOT have a great jab.