BoxRec

wouter wrote:I agree with Ali being the most overrated fighter of all time. He's rated best heavy ever because, because.... well.. he's Ali. His ability gets confused with his historical significance. Prime vs. prime, I'd rate Joe Frazier over him.

Mike Tyson in his prime would have indeed destroyed him, to this day Ali still admits that fact as he has stated over and over again during interviews.

This still doesn't take away the fact that Ali was the greatest in most sane people's minds.

Tyson was too powerful, Ali wouldn't have been able to withstand the initial first three to four rounds.

Frazier on the other hand, well did you watch when he fought Ali?!

Exchamp07 wrote:Mike Tyson in his prime would have indeed destroyed him, to this day Ali still admits that fact as he has stated over and over again during interviews.

This still doesn't take away the fact that Ali was the greatest in most sane people's minds.

Tyson was too powerful, Ali wouldn't have been able to withstand the initial first three to four rounds.

Frazier on the other hand, well did you watch when he fought Ali?!

Versus Tyson, Ali would be a-picking and a-poking en route to a decision win or late stoppage. Frazier vs. Ali I is the closest thing to a prime vs. prime matchup. I don't think any version af Ali could have handled THAT Frazier.

Exchamp07 wrote:Tyson was too powerful, Ali wouldn't have been able to withstand the initial first three to four rounds.

So Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green could survive the early rounds with the mythic young Tysonbut Ali couldn't? I'm not trying to be a smart ass but I just don't see what in Ali's carer would lead you to make that assumption.

new comer to the forum but i'll throw in an opinion from down under.
Ali v Liston, Frazier,Foreman Ellis,Norton, Bugner, Folley, Spinks, Lyle, Quarry, etc,etc.
Who did he duck? no one...
They were the best of an era and he proved time and again that he could find a way to adapt to any opponants style.
Tyson? We have all met one. Probably in the schoolyard in the shape of a bully. Terrifying, menacing and brutal.
That is until you stand up to him and throw something back, a la
Buster Douglas.
Prior to that fight he had intimidated all before him and the fight was normally won before he entered the ring.
Ali would have frustrated the hell out of Tyson with sheer speed and ringcraft and Iron Mike would have learnt the hard way that you can't hit what you can't catch.
Tigermoth, we have a saying for blokes like you here in Aus,
He's got roos in his top paddock!!!!!!!!

That is until you stand up to him and throw something back, a la
Buster Douglas.
Prior to that fight he had intimidated all before him and the fight was normally won before he entered the ring.

thats is utter bs. Ali would have probably beaten Tyson .. but you haven't seen any of young Tysons fights if you think people were affraid of him. That is a myth. Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Pinklon Thomas - all of em came out fireing.. and fighting.

There were a number of Ali wins that were actually stacked in his favor before the fight even began. One that comes to mind is Jimmy Young in which it is mentioned that Don King picked the judges himself.

Another that comes to mind and I'm sure it's been around and around as has the Jimmy Young deal is George Foreman and the "elasticity" of the ropes.

Despite all of that the only reason why people would say that Ali is the most overrated of all time is because he is the most publicized fighter of all-time and is regarded on every street corner as "The Greatest." Though Joe Louis gets my nod for the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

But anyways, Ali beats Tyson by late stoppage/wide decision. And Tyson gets my pick for most overrated fighter of all-time.

cultus wrote:

That is until you stand up to him and throw something back, a la
Buster Douglas.
Prior to that fight he had intimidated all before him and the fight was normally won before he entered the ring.

thats is utter bs. Ali would have probably beaten Tyson .. but you haven't seen any of young Tysons fights if you think people were affraid of him. That is a myth. Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Pinklon Thomas - all of em came out fireing.. and fighting.

they were still scared of him, they just didnt show it like spinks.
i dont think any of them would have put their morgage on themselves winning but they were fighters to the core and they thought to themselves `you might win lad but i`m going down with all guns blazing`.
there was a lot of hype back then about tyson, everyone thought he was some indestructable machine, and everyone bought into it.
thats why tysons loss to douglas is probably the biggest shock in boxing history.
holyfield was the first fighter tyson faced who truly had that ` i couldnt give a shite who you are pal` look on his face as he entered the ring.

headhunter wrote:

cultus wrote:

That is until you stand up to him and throw something back, a la
Buster Douglas.
Prior to that fight he had intimidated all before him and the fight was normally won before he entered the ring.

thats is utter bs. Ali would have probably beaten Tyson .. but you haven't seen any of young Tysons fights if you think people were affraid of him. That is a myth. Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Pinklon Thomas - all of em came out fireing.. and fighting.

they were still scared of him, they just didnt show it like spinks.
i dont think any of them would have put their morgage on themselves winning but they were fighters to the core and they thought to themselves `you might win lad but i`m going down with all guns blazing`.
there was a lot of hype back then about tyson, everyone thought he was some indestructable machine, and everyone bought into it.
thats why tysons loss to douglas is probably the biggest shock in boxing history.
holyfield was the first fighter tyson faced who truly had that ` i couldnt give a shite who you are pal` look on his face as he entered the ring.

every fighter is afraid.. stepping infront of the whole world and facing getting beaten up. Tyson as admitted that he was afraid also .. like everybody .. if you really beLIEve that losing to Douglas defines young Tyson then fine.

TigerMoth wrote:How about Muhammand Ali? Sure he occupied a nitch in time between the slow cumversome heavyweigthts of similar or smaller size. But, he had all he could handle with bascially a one-handed cruiserwight (Joe Frazier) and a fighter who would crumble against anyone with power (Ken Norton).

Yes, he was fast and big for a heavyweight at the time. But, a fast handed, two handed puncher like the early Mike Tyson would have destroyed him like he did Larry Holmes. And, against big, fast guys like those that exist today, he would have crumpled like a garbage can.

Talk about myths!!!!

Another thing about Ali was he was forced into 'retirement' aged 25years 2 months and didn't return until he was 28 years 9 months old.......that's a 3 year 7 month absence.

He missed the best years years of his life and still managed to stay at the top.

J-C wrote:

Exchamp07 wrote:Tyson was too powerful, Ali wouldn't have been able to withstand the initial first three to four rounds.

So Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green could survive the early rounds with the mythic young Tysonbut Ali couldn't? I'm not trying to be a smart ass but I just don't see what in Ali's carer would lead you to make that assumption.

The outcome was still the same, also look at when these bouts were stopped. Have you watched these fights a few times? If so, then you would understand where my "assumptions" are coming from. To take it even one step further even Ali himself has admitted on more than a dozen or so occasions that we would not have been able to beat Tyson. The fighters that you name really didn't last overly long and when there time was up it sure was up in that ring.

Ali was fast, a great technical fighter and yes I agree, overall he is the greatest of all time all things considered. One of the main reasons I considered the sanity of a few posters early on in this thread.

He was in no way, shape, or form "overrated" as a few of these international posters proclaim which hopefully was nothing more than flame bait to rile up this crowd in my humble opinion.

Ali was Ali and was/is considered to be the greatest heavyweight of all time, that is hard to dispute.

Iron Mike was of a different breed, add in his anger, aggression, and sheer quickness in the ring then I find it hard to believe that Tyson wouldn't have been able to "hit something he couldn't catch", I find that very far fetched in my humble opinion.

This is straight from the horses mouth, Ali had the utmost of respect for what Iron Mike did in his prime and was even in the dressing room with him for a prolonged period of time prior and after to his last professional bout against McBride for a reason.

You can't make the comparison between the Iron Mike of old and the Mike Tyson of present day.

the handspeed, agility, and outright sheer power was evident in every one of the Tyson fights early on prior to his downfall which to this day has not been seen since. No fighter has been able to dominate in such a powerful way as he was once able to do. Take a look at the "Quick Tillis" fight in it's entirety or for that matter any of his pre-Buster fights and name me one fighter who has this sheer and raw power?

I think you would be hard pressed to find a comparable fighter that was able to do what he did. It surely wasn't his looks that made him the youngest heavyweight champion of all time, a feat likely never to be seen again.

Cus, Rooney, Jim, Atlas, & company knew what they had and they made a laughing stock out of any and all opponents that he faced during his prime, hard to dispute these facts. One would only need to go back and watch a few of his fights.

I don't believe for a second that Ali faced the sheer and devastating power of a Mike Tyson in his prime. Boxing evolved and changed so very much that making the comparisons just isn't there with any sort of factual documentation and proof.

Don't listen to me, watch the interview clips from the greatest Ali and he in his very own words reiterates the above.

Take Tyson in his young prime, no one could stop or break him- the track record clearly shows and proves this point.

Post Buster fight when the downfall started then Ali would have taken him out relatively easy. Anything before it would have been all Tyson.

Many of the younger critics only want to remember Iron Mike past and out of his prime, two different worlds and I would suggest to those people to watch his earlier fights when his "original handlers" were calling the shots and kept him in line.

Exchamp07 wrote:Don't listen to me, watch the interview clips from the greatest Ali and he in his very own words reiterates the above.

Ali was very humble in his older years. Tyson now says he would have lost to Lennox Lewis at any point in his career (which is much closer to the truth than Ali's statement about Tyson).

Many of the younger critics only want to remember Iron Mike past and out of his prime, two different worlds and I would suggest to those people to watch his earlier fights when his "original handlers" were calling the shots and kept him in line.

I think we have to look at both versions of Tysonas well as both versions of Ali. Tyson in his younger days showed none of the weaknesses he later had in his career such as his inability to adapt and fight through the tough situations. When you look at Ali, he looked amazing in his prime, but it was past his prime that showed his best attributes: his ability to take a punch, his heart, and his intelligence in the ring.

There's no doubt in my mind, that any Ali from the years 1964-1976 would have beaten and knocked out any version of Mike Tyson.

Borinken25 wrote:

TigerMoth wrote:How about Muhammand Ali? Sure he occupied a nitch in time between the slow cumversome heavyweigthts of similar or smaller size. But, he had all he could handle with bascially a one-handed cruiserwight (Joe Frazier) and a fighter who would crumble against anyone with power (Ken Norton).

Yes, he was fast and big for a heavyweight at the time. But, a fast handed, two handed puncher like the early Mike Tyson would have destroyed him like he did Larry Holmes. And, against big, fast guys like those that exist today, he would have crumpled like a garbage can.

Talk about myths!!!!

I think you need to go to rehab and stop using drugs; they are seriously affecting your judgment. Look at his record and the fighters that he defeated.

Give the kid a break he is from Thailand they probably dont get much footage over there so he might just be confused becuase he hasnt seen much, hell he probably had to sit on his roof top to get internet over there.

Kikuchiyo wrote:

Exchamp07 wrote:Don't listen to me, watch the interview clips from the greatest Ali and he in his very own words reiterates the above.

Ali was very humble in his older years. Tyson now says he would have lost to Lennox Lewis at any point in his career (which is much closer to the truth than Ali's statement about Tyson).

Many of the younger critics only want to remember Iron Mike past and out of his prime, two different worlds and I would suggest to those people to watch his earlier fights when his "original handlers" were calling the shots and kept him in line.

I think we have to look at both versions of Tysonas well as both versions of Ali. Tyson in his younger days showed none of the weaknesses he later had in his career such as his inability to adapt and fight through the tough situations. When you look at Ali, he looked amazing in his prime, but it was past his prime that showed his best attributes: his ability to take a punch, his heart, and his intelligence in the ring.

There's no doubt in my mind, that any Ali from the years 1964-1976 would have beaten and knocked out any version of Mike Tyson.

Agree, Ali was and is still very humble but it doesn't take away the respect, admiration, and intellect that he has for Mike Tyson and all he accomplished during his prime.

Past his prime, it was a different Mike Tyson that was nothing like the one we saw become the youngest heavyweight champion of all time. He didn't get the nickname the "baddest man on earth" during his reign by his gorgeous looks yet his detractors will find every excuse in the book to take away what this man had once accomplished.

Lennox Lewis was nothing in comparison to the two above and Mike stated that in hopes of getting another "pay day" and "rematch" against Lewis once he WAS past his prime.

Again, you are comparing a Tyson past his prime versus looking at him when he was at the top of his game.

I would highly doubt Ali would have knocked out Tyson of old, present day post Douglas Tyson then I would agree.

Any case could be made. Some say Lewis was one of the greatest of all time yet it took him a shaky 8 rounds to beat the old, battered, out of shape Tyson of old in Memphis. If Lewis was good he should have been able to take care of business much sooner in the fight which he tried and failed and failed miserably.

If it wasn't for the cut, Klitcho would have even beat Lewis. If anyone was overrated then you mentioned it.

Lewis beating Tyson in his prime? The second coming of Christ would have a better chance of happening before this ever would have occured.

Tyson was being overly sarcastic and even Bert Sugar and most of the better respected boxing historians know this never would have happened in a million years. Lewis had all he could handle in Memphis against a "has been" Mike Tyson. 8 rounds to get this job done?!?!?!

Come on, it doesn't take a boxer to put two and two together to understand something was wrong with that picture. It is still quite comical to watch the fight present day and see how uptight Lewis was the first three or so rounds.

Never would have happened during his prime.

TigerMoth wrote:How about Muhammand Ali? Sure he occupied a nitch in time between the slow cumversome heavyweigthts of similar or smaller size. But, he had all he could handle with bascially a one-handed cruiserwight (Joe Frazier) and a fighter who would crumble against anyone with power (Ken Norton).

Yes, he was fast and big for a heavyweight at the time. But, a fast handed, two handed puncher like the early Mike Tyson would have destroyed him like he did Larry Holmes. And, against big, fast guys like those that exist today, he would have crumpled like a garbage can.

Talk about myths!!!!

it's a joke! (or not?)

Controversial wrote:

TigerMoth wrote:

Borinken25 wrote: At the end of the day Ali was a great fighter and the fighters he fought are a "who's who" of the heavyweight division. He ducked no-one and beat most of them. The greatest ever is up for debate but one of the very best no doubt.

If anyone is over-rated it is Marciano.

it's another good joke!

Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe.

RazorKO wrote:Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe.

How did I know that you'd mention Lennox Lewis? :P

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:

Controversial wrote:

TigerMoth wrote:


it's another good joke!

Hey that's my opinion. Yes Marciano done all he could do and beat everyone he fought but he does get vastly over-rated by fans as being some sort of superhuman fighter who would walk through anyone he fought.

It just isn't true. The heavyweight era was poor when Marciano was fighting and many of his opponents were average to say the least. The decent fighters he beat Louis, Walcott, Charles had all seen better days. Louis was a shadow of the fighter he was and Walcott and Charles were on the decline. Yet they still gave Marciano fits.

The way I try and rate fighters is by placing fighters from other eras in their era. How would Ali, Frazier, Tyson or Lewis have done if they were about in the 50's. More than likely gone 49-0 as well. What if Marciano was about in the 70's, 80's or 90's? Would he have gone 49-0 then.....I very much doubt it.

Exchamp07 wrote:Mike Tyson in his prime would have indeed destroyed him, to this day Ali still admits that fact as he has stated over and over again during interviews.

What interviews are these? I've read countless interviews with Ali and I have NEVER read anything where Ali says Tyson would have destroyed him????

I have however read many times were Ali has stated he believes he would have outboxed and stopped Tyson in about eleven rounds?

Also when you said "to this day Ali still admits that fact". How is this a fact?

I always have to wade through a few pages of a discussion like this just to get the "feel". And I think I'm starting to sense a trend and I have a comment.

If we are going to banter around the names that clearly qualify as "the best of the best" then I'm ok with any of them getting the label "overated" because at least no crime has been committed and it's quite possible that the Ali's, Marciano's, Robinson's of the world are "overated" ...which in this definition means "how much better than the rest" were they? I can go all day long with that conversation and not be overly concerned.


HOWEVER there are moments in time when fighters truly deserve to be called out as "overated". Lamar Clark comes to mind, he was truly overated for a while.. based on people drinking the "0" and the high KO rate, "kool aid".

Marciano gets an awful big boost by quitting with his "0" but he was still good ...but not the best ever IMHO. That "0" is not magic....just impressive.

I've always thought Aaron Pryor gets too much of a boost for his absolutely terrific televised fights with Arguello. He took out an over the Hill Cervantes who would have easily beaten him in his prime...carefully selected his opponents he then peaked with Arguello....and then was exposed at the over the hill age of 29 by Bobby Joe Young....not just for his fighting ability in the ring but his inability to handle "life" itself. I only wish he would have fought Benitez, Duran, Leanord and a few others in that era so that I could be better validated on this one. That "hand picked" carreer can really plant some serious mythological seeds that can not easily be rooted out of the general public's conciousness.

Who else...Foreman was perhaps overated until he fought with Ali...I remember many many people saying he was the Greatest of all time and no one could even come close these words all spoken in the days leading to Zaire.

Willie the Worm Monroe was crowned the future MW champion of the world a bit too soon. I'd love to take you back into a time machine where you could talk to almost boxing fan, they were all buying that one.

Does Marlon Starling fit this script?

Gerry Cooney....big in the Over Rated dept. Duane Bobick fills that slot as well.

Oh and though no one seemed to think it in the 60's 70's 80's or 90's somehow Primo Carnera has risen from the grave and is considered worthy of serious praise 70 years later. How that has come to fruition is perhaps the greatest mystery of all of boxing mysteries.

Controversial wrote:

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Thanks for your reply. You're right, all right, in "Hey that's my opinion"; it's good to revise ideas for to see how many true it contains, in this case our valuation of greatest fighters; well, seeing his fights and records, for example, mi admiration to Rocky Marciano and Henry Armstrong, is growing, but, is only my opinion. In the '70 and after, Rocky would be better than his time, and the rivals he beat (generally by K.O.) were not easy or little boys... Ali is great (but not the greatest, Louis and Marciano were better than him), but I'm sure that Rocky would knocked out Frazier, Tyson and Lewis and others... Thanks again!

I actually tried to be inflammatory in order to get an involved discussion.

I began this topic because a PREVIOUS TOPIC talked about the greatest boxers of all-time and Ali showed up as superior to Sugar Ray Robinson in many lists. In my opiniion, SRR and Ali were similar except for the fact that SRR was a fighter who would mix it up and had one punch knockout power in both hands. Ali, in comparison, used his speed to wear down fighters and gained his knockouts by accumulation of punches and exhaustion by opposing fiighters (having chased him around the ring).

Additionallly, Ali was extremely popular and was always treated as special. I enjoyed Ali as much as anyone. He was extremely handsome, charismatic, a great deal of fun to listen to and observe.

But, Ali wasn't a fighter like SRR. For example, when Frazier got in close, Ali would pull him forward, hold him and lean on hiim (put his weight on him). I have watched many SRR fight clips and in everyone he fought, he didn't resort to what are actually illegal tatics to win.

I am happy this thread has had many responses. And, I will just comment on a couple of them. One of the responeses brought up Ernie Terrell, being 6 feet 6 inches tall as a rebuttal to my comments about the Klitschko brothers. Well Ernie was tall but hade little power (21 KO's in 54 professioanl fights). Hardly a reasonable comparison to the Klitschko brothers, who have enormous power (and limitations as boxers).

Another reply, stated that Buster Douglas was the first fighter not afraid of Tyson and went after him. And, implied that Tyson would have had similar problems earlier in his career with any other fighter that went after him. Well, Tyson was lost before he ever fought Douglas. He fought Douglas in 1990 and left Rooney (the last of his boxing roots) in 1988 and joined Don King. I am not trying to imply that Rooney was a great trainer, just that he was the last link to Cus A'mato and his sister (who raised Mike from his teenage years and were the only people who showed him love and cared for him). The Tyson of 1990 was already out of shape, had lost the head movement, etc.

I am currently not a fan of Mike Tyson. I really don't like him. But, I do think that had Cus and Jimmy Jacobs lived another 10 years, Mkie would have been the greatest up to his time.

But, the human species evolves. In every sport, athletes are bigger, faster, better conditioned. Someday there will be a Klischko size figthter, with power and Ali's speed. It will happen.

But, when I look at films of fighter from the past, even today, there is no one to compare with SRR.

I think at his best with Cus in his corner Tyson would have won against Ali. But, even if I am wrong, sometime in the next 20 years, there will be a figthter with Ali's abiliity, Tyson's power and the size of Klitscko brothers.

It will happen.

In the mean time, the fight, I would like to see is PBF VS Mosley. My pick is Mosley~~