BoxRec

Seamus wrote:JT wouldn't be some punching bag on the ropes either, he'd be hitting Marciano with counters all night.

So did Moore... one of the reasons why I used the Moore comparison... Moore was countering off the ropes all night and Rocky hardly noticed, and Toney is not a harder hitter than Moore was.

With all due respect here, if Toney fought as many times as Archie and at the same high level of competition he would have been stopped atleast that many times. I am a Toney fan saying this, he may not be KOd but he would have been stopped several times in 178 bouts.

You cant explain away the times Archie Moore was ko'd simply by the amount of times he fought and the opponents he faced. Especially with so many great performances against good fighters mingled among the fights where he was dropped or hurt. Fighters like Robinson,Greb and Lamotta were similarly busy and fought against faced tough oppisition as well. Sure they had their subpar outings but they weren't ko'd or dropped nearly as many times as Moore. Why? Because they had better chins then him.
Moore was an all time great no doubt about, i have him #2 Lightheavy of all time. but the one chink in his armor, a very small chink, was his chin. It wasnt horrible but it wasn't great either. Moore was a fantastic fighter but if you caught him flush you could really hurt him. He probably fought with the cross arm defense for this reason.

Toney has proven to have a class A chin. Any one who disputes this is just being argumentative. Now I dont believe Toney was better than Moore, and I dont think he would have done better against his competition, but I do believe Toney would probably not have been stopped either.

You are delusional to think Jirov hits as hard as Marciano.

I never said that. The whole point was just because Marciano ko'd Moore doesn't by any stretch mean he would ko Toney. Toney had a better chin than Moore and had a better type of defense to avoid most of the wild, awkward shots Marciano landed on Moore. He would still lose, but he wouldn't be knocked out.

So did Moore... one of the reasons why I used the Moore comparison... Moore was countering off the ropes all night and Rocky hardly noticed, and Toney is not a harder hitter than Moore was.

Most of Moore's defense was blocking and taking the shots on his arms. Toney's defense was better.

Seamus wrote:Who wins and why over 10-12-15 rds ? And remember this isn't the HW version of Toney that's gassed after 5 rds. JT also had decent power at CW.

The Rock would have destroyed him at any weight. Rocky never weighed more than a cruiserweight anyway.

theone wrote:Most of Moore's defense was blocking and taking the shots on his arms. Toney's defense was better.

Point is you're not going to get many opponents who fight as similar to Toney as Moore did against Rocky. That fight is a pretty good measuring stick for how Rocky would do with Toney, and outside of an early knock down Marciano didn't lose a round to Moore.

And regardless of defense and even chin, Moore is a better fighter than Toney.

theone wrote:

If Marciano could stop Moore, Toney isn't exactly a tall order.

It would most likely be a very tall order actually. Moore was knocked out 4 times before fighting Marciano. Toney has proven to have a granite chin and his defense is probably better than Moore's. Toney lasting the distance with Marciano is no stretch whatsoever.

With reference to Moore being stopped four times before he fought Marciano there are many who claim that Archie Moore took a dive when being stopped in one round by Leonard Morrow.

I wouldn't bet on Peter hitting harder than Sheppard. Peter couldn't finish off glass-chinned Wladimir Klitschko.

This statement doesn't say much about your understanding of boxing.
Shepard punched harder than Peter? Now thats just stupid. Sheppard was a hard punching cruiserweight who lost nearly as much as he won. Peter is a monster puncher by true heavyweight standards. So what if Peter couldn't finish Wald? Its not as easy to knock Wald out since he's been with Steward; ask Lamon Brewster.

..curtis sheppard once broke an opponent's collar bone. with a punch. wearing boxing gloves. can't recall his name. archie often spoke with awe about the hatchet man's punch. he kayoed the solid-chinned joey maxim in the first round. caught him cold with one punch. this was the only time maxim was stopped in a career of 115 fights...against many high quality opponents in the heavy and light heavy weight divisions.

i don't know if peter hit harder than that or not. after he fights over 100 times it will be easier to make a judgement.

as always, my best to all of you..

i think marciano would of been to strong and relentless for toney even with toney counering him marciano was one tough boy he could take what he gave and not matter how many times toney hit him he would of kept coming and kept throwing and moore was a extremely good hitter but so were many of marcianos opponents and it didnt phase him

how many heavyweight champs could of made 190... marciano, fitzimmons, patterson, would have i think ali weighed in under 200 for some of his fights could he of made 190? it would be an interesting weight division if it was around since the 1900's

Marciano DIDN'T start slow in the title fight agaainst Walcott, it's just that Waloctt was fighting exceptionally well, slick combinations and sharp footwork...

(evidcne of this is he knocked down Marciano, and this only ever happened tiwce in Marciano's whole professional career)...

theone wrote:

I wouldn't bet on Peter hitting harder than Sheppard. Peter couldn't finish off glass-chinned Wladimir Klitschko.

This statement doesn't say much about your understanding of boxing.
Shepard punched harder than Peter? Now thats just stupid. Sheppard was a hard punching cruiserweight who lost nearly as much as he won. Peter is a monster puncher by true heavyweight standards. So what if Peter couldn't finish Wald? Its not as easy to knock Wald out since he's been with Steward; ask Lamon Brewster.

Brewster TKO'd Klitschko while Steward was training him.

Brewster TKO'd Klitschko while Steward was training him.

True you got me there!

However, I believe since working together Klitschko has improved significantly. It has been evident in his recent fights.