Rocky Marciano vs James Toney at Cruiserweight

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Aug 2007, 19:50

Who wins and why over 10-12-15 rds ? And remember this isn't the HW version of Toney that's gassed after 5 rds. JT also had decent power at CW.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Aug 2007, 23:18

A pretty awesome fight. Gruelling, bloody and life threatening.

I see Toney getting a 12 round Dec or Marciano getting a 15th round dec.

In the later rounds Marciano sustains his attack as Toney slows up.

Kym

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Aug 2007, 18:35

That's pretty similar to the way I see it. Marciano has a clear advantage in power and punch output, but Toney has a big advantage in defense. Style wise this would actually be a good matchup for Toney. JT is a master of defense against guys who come straight at him firing from both barrels. His block, slip and counter style would be effective against Marciano and he has a pretty solid chin for the shots that do get through. But could he sustain it for a whole fight ? Since he became a pro Toney's never been a gym rat, but on the other hand he's a very economical fighter, who proved he can still slip and block even when he spends more time at the golden arches than in the gym. So in a 15 rounder at Cruiserweight I see Marciano digging down a little deeper and pulling out a 2 pt win, while Toney edges it at 12 or 10.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Aug 2007, 20:06

I once brought up a Frazier-Toney theoretical and it was about 90-10 in Fraziers favor....and considered a life threatening fight for Toney. This seems to be treated with greater deference. Has Toney improved since then? I actually think he wouldn't be trounced but a win is a bit of a stretch.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Aug 2007, 20:18

Prime Frazier was a bit heavier than Marciano. After his 10th bout he was always over 200. This is a Cruiserweight Weight scenario, before Toney became obese.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Aug 2007, 20:37

Marciano.

Vasiliy Jirov fought a bit like the Rock, but was even more easier to hit [virtually blocked all the blows with his face] and wasn't as ferocious as Marciano, and wasn't quite the puncher....both men had a sound concept of body work in the ring, but combine that with Rocky's punch rate, I think prime vs prime, Marciano would probably win a somewhat wide decision.

If Toney had a helluva time with Jirov, I don't see him handling Marciano.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Aug 2007, 20:46

Toney beat Jirov pretty clearly, not as bad as the scorecards, but I certainly wouldn't call it close. At the same time, Jirov was unbeaten at that weight and was a ferocious body puncher.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Aug 2007, 20:59

I thought myself it was a draw at least, I personally thought it was Jirov who maybe should have gotten the nod, considering Toney's best round was the last. But thats just me.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 19 Aug 2007, 21:37

Decagon wrote:James Toney barely beat Vassily Jirov at 190. How the hell would he beat Rocky Marciano?

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 19 Aug 2007, 22:51

Rocky by KO in the 11th, There is no way that Toney could with stand the savagness of Marciano who mualed guys far bigger than 190 pounds.

A better question would be how would Toney do against Moore that fight would be great.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Aug 2007, 23:15

As much as I'd like to see it, I can't envision anyone under 200 stopping James Toney.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 19 Aug 2007, 23:53

Seamus wrote:As much as I'd like to see it, I can't envision anyone under 200 stopping James Toney.

Probably not a clean KO but not even a slippery 190-200lb Toney couldn't cope with Marciano's presure for a full 12 rounds. Toney could slip and shoulder roll all he wanted but Marciano would just keep coming and I think he would eventually land enough that the ref would step in...

Marciano does whatever it takes gets the job done IMO.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 25 Aug 2007, 01:09

..this match between two of the most overrated fighters of the "modern" era has marciano beating toney to a pulp.....the only chance toney has would be if the referee disqualified marciano for excessive fouling...but he got away with it throughout his career, so there's no reason to think he wouldn't in this one.

if rocky fought clean (pause for a hearty laugh) he still batters toney. makes no difference if it's for 12 or 15.....even sometimes slow starting marciano gets the pretty poser out of there withiin five rounds.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 25 Aug 2007, 01:50

slow starting Marciano?

I don't think eleven 1st round knockouts, seven 2nd round knockouts, seven 3rd round knockouts, two 4th round knockouts, two 5th round knockouts, four 6th round knockouts, three 8th round knockouts, and three 9th round knockouts, is 'slow starting' at all in 49 fights.

29 of those KO's came in 5 rounds or less; 10 came between 6 and 9 rounds; and 3 of those KO's came in 10 rounds or later!*

If anything at all Marciano was a fast starter, over 60% of his victories happened before the middle rounds!

*Think I did my math wrong considering that came out to 42 KO's rather than his career 43, but you more or less get the picture.

theone · Post by **theone** » 25 Aug 2007, 08:38

Marciano way too wild to score a ko over Toney, but i believe he would be too strong and aggressive for him. Marciano wins a highly entertaining but clear decision in either 12 or 15.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 25 Aug 2007, 09:28

Marciano on points.

The Rock would be too strong, more desire, too busy and relentless.

bobbyd · Post by **bobbyd** » 30 Aug 2007, 21:39

I see the Rock knockin em down 3 times in the 10th round en route a tko.
It'd be 6 rounds to 3 for the rock before then.Toney's best rounds would be 2,3 and 4.After that,he'd fade and then get manhandled.I mean,ROCK HANDLED!!..., and then,eventually chopped down.
Rocky would be a devastating cruiserweight for absolute certain!!
8)

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 Aug 2007, 21:48

If Marciano could stop Moore, Toney isn't exactly a tall order.

I think the Jirov comparison sort of puts this thread to rest.

theone · Post by **theone** » 30 Aug 2007, 23:21

If Marciano could stop Moore, Toney isn't exactly a tall order.

It would most likely be a very tall order actually. Moore was knocked out 4 times before fighting Marciano. Toney has proven to have a granite chin and his defense is probably better than Moore's. Toney lasting the distance with Marciano is no stretch whatsoever.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 30 Aug 2007, 23:47

Actually Toney had a better chin than anyone Marciano ever stopped. I can understand someone picking Marciano in a close decision, but saying he'd destroy Toney is just ridiculous. JT wouldn't be some punching bag on the ropes either, he'd be hitting Marciano with counters all night.

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Aug 2007, 06:26

Toney didn't fight 1/20 as good competition as Moore. Give Toney three fights with Eddie Booker, three with Ezzard Charles, one with Charley Burley, five with Jack Chase, two with Lloyd Marshall, two with Holman Williams, five with Jimmy Bivins, three with Joey Maxim, five with Harold Johnson, two with Berty Lytell, one with the Cocoa Kid, half a dozen for the Hogue twins, four with "Oakland" Billy Smith, two with Johnny "Bandit" Romero, two with Nino Valdez and one with Curtis "Hatchetman" Sheppard, and James Toney would be lucky to escape with only four KO losses.

Toney may not escape with only four losses but i still bet he doesn't get ko'd. Toney more than proved his ability to take a shot throughout his career, facing some very heavy hitters and never being close to being knockout. Toney may not be as good as Moore, but he certainly seems to have the better chin.

Based on what? Him struggling with Vassily Jirov and going into defensive mode against Sam Peter?

Jirov probably punched as hard, and Peter definitely punched harder than any fighter you mentioned. Both landed several flush shots on Toney and never came close to knocking him out.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 31 Aug 2007, 07:19

theone wrote:
If Marciano could stop Moore, Toney isn't exactly a tall order.
It would most likely be a very tall order actually. Moore was knocked out 4 times before fighting Marciano. Toney has proven to have a granite chin and his defense is probably better than Moore's. Toney lasting the distance with Marciano is no stretch whatsoever.

With all due respect here, if Toney fought as many times as Archie and at the same high level of competition he would have been stopped atleast that many times. I am a Toney fan saying this, he may not be KOd but he would have been stopped several times in 178 bouts.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 31 Aug 2007, 09:34

theone wrote:
Toney didn't fight 1/20 as good competition as Moore. Give Toney three fights with Eddie Booker, three with Ezzard Charles, one with Charley Burley, five with Jack Chase, two with Lloyd Marshall, two with Holman Williams, five with Jimmy Bivins, three with Joey Maxim, five with Harold Johnson, two with Berty Lytell, one with the Cocoa Kid, half a dozen for the Hogue twins, four with "Oakland" Billy Smith, two with Johnny "Bandit" Romero, two with Nino Valdez and one with Curtis "Hatchetman" Sheppard, and James Toney would be lucky to escape with only four KO losses.
Toney may not escape with only four losses but i still bet he doesn't get ko'd. Toney more than proved his ability to take a shot throughout his career, facing some very heavy hitters and never being close to being knockout. Toney may not be as good as Moore, but he certainly seems to have the better chin.
Based on what? Him struggling with Vassily Jirov and going into defensive mode against Sam Peter?
Jirov probably punched as hard, and Peter definitely punched harder than any fighter you mentioned. Both landed several flush shots on Toney and never came close to knocking him out.

Toney never liked getting hit to the body going back to his middleweight days. Marciano would grind him down to the body setting up a late TKO.

You are delusional to think Jirov hits as hard as Marciano. Peter hits harder but his punch output and yes even boxing skills are dismal by comparison to Marciano. Most of the 24 rounds Peter and Toney fought was them looking at each other trying to get breathers. Toney would get no breather vs Rocky, and if he had to struggle vs the pressure of Griffith, Tiberi, Rahman, and Jirov (he clearly won but he was exhausted at the end of the 12 rounds), Marciano is too much for him. Much stronger, much harder hitter, much better stamina.

Toney's slickster skills don't save him vs a great Heavyweight fighter. Toney at 190 was NOT close to being a big puncher . . knocking out Jason Robinson doesn't make you a big puncher. Look at who he went the distance with at 175 and above. And I was a big champion of Toney's HW run until after the Ruiz fight when he showed he didn't even care enough to properly train. I even bought into the hype as the Holyfield win made me believe Toney had more power at HW than he actually had. Then I saw him land the kitchen sink on Rahman (who's chin is not granite) and not so much as stun him, Toney has little baby middleweight hands.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 31 Aug 2007, 13:02

..eek...for some reason...NOT age related no matter what boxbuzzy will say...i was thinking of roy jones and not toney when i made my post. i think jones...not toney....is one of the most overrated fighters in boxing. now...how would toney do against marciano? i agree...marciano's body attack would wear toney down and marciano probably would stop him.. i say this because toney at heavyweight...wasn't really a heavyweight....just a guy from a smaller division who got fat. he is, as most fighters are, a far superior fighter than marciano on a pound for pound basis...but the well-managed one from brockton would be just too strong for him at heavy.

(it pains me so much to favor marciano against anybody, so i had to get a few digs in to ease my discomfort..)

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 31 Aug 2007, 22:10

Jaclem wrote:..eek...for some reason...NOT age related no matter what boxbuzzy will say...i was thinking of roy jones and not toney when i made my post. i think jones...not toney....is one of the most overrated fighters in boxing. now...how would toney do against marciano? i agree...marciano's body attack would wear toney down and marciano probably would stop him.. i say this because toney at heavyweight...wasn't really a heavyweight....just a guy from a smaller division who got fat. he is, as most fighters are, a far superior fighter than marciano on a pound for pound basis...but the well-managed one from brockton would be just too strong for him at heavy.

(it pains me so much to favor marciano against anybody, so i had to get a few digs in to ease my discomfort..)

Two fighters each with an "o" as the second letter in their names.........who wouldnt' get confused?