What's not a true belt?? You're directly replying to someone that posted this 3 years ago?Nile4000 wrote:That's not a true belt.undisputedly_pat wrote:Depends if you're looking at the WBA, WBC, IBF big 3 sanctioning bodies champions (maybe WBO as a close #4 right now) or all of the sanctioning bodies. Mitch Green, who hundreds of heavyweights could beat today, happens to hold a heavyweight belt since I last checked, of course, maybe I shouldn't be undermining his victory over rough and tumble Danny Wofford.
the worst heavyweight champ of all time
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
carnera defintley was not the worst. look at his record, he beat some good names and not all his fights were tank jobs! historians of that time underate primo. watch primo on film, u will see he was a decentley skilled big man, and a lot better than the circus freak people make him out to be!
the 2 obvious worst heavyweight champions are shannon briggs and leon spinx, THERE IS NO QUESTION!
the 2 obvious worst heavyweight champions are shannon briggs and leon spinx, THERE IS NO QUESTION!
Carnera without doubt was the worst. However (big asterisk here)....He honest to god truly KO'd Sharkey who just did not beleive there was a thing to be afraid of from this guy and got genuinely clocked. It has always put Carnera on some credible standing with some. However it had far far more to to with Sharkey being disrespectful than Carnera having anything going for him.
Amnesia has set in and history is being rewritten in his favor. I can see it in the postings of so many current fight fans. It's sad that the soft blur of the "nostagia lens" has allowed the simple truth to deteriorate. This guy was the weakest excuse for a HW champion of all time.
I suppose if you pull the belts apart in the last 15 years and find a one hit wonder like Bruce Seldon or his equal you could start making comparisons. But Carnera was actually full lineage. Though he did not deserve it.
Most of you know what I think of Patterson....and Patterson would have been able to even the scoreboard on all his combined knockdowns in his career if allowed to go just a few rounds with Primo.
Honestly, truely, clearly, and genuinely it's that bad of a story. He did not have the goods, it's that simple.
Amnesia has set in and history is being rewritten in his favor. I can see it in the postings of so many current fight fans. It's sad that the soft blur of the "nostagia lens" has allowed the simple truth to deteriorate. This guy was the weakest excuse for a HW champion of all time.
I suppose if you pull the belts apart in the last 15 years and find a one hit wonder like Bruce Seldon or his equal you could start making comparisons. But Carnera was actually full lineage. Though he did not deserve it.
Most of you know what I think of Patterson....and Patterson would have been able to even the scoreboard on all his combined knockdowns in his career if allowed to go just a few rounds with Primo.
Honestly, truely, clearly, and genuinely it's that bad of a story. He did not have the goods, it's that simple.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
I completly disagree. Carnera developed into a capable boxer. After the 3rd round watch how he completly schools Max Baer for every round of the fight until the 10th, and he not only outboxes Max but is the aggresor, after he'd been decked HARD several times early.BoxBuzz wrote:Carnera without doubt was the worst. However (big asterisk here)....He honest to god truly KO'd Sharkey who just did not beleive there was a thing to be afraid of from this guy and got genuinely clocked. It has always put Carnera on some credible standing with some. However it had far far more to to with Sharkey being disrespectful than Carnera having anything going for him.
Amnesia has set in and history is being rewritten in his favor. I can see it in the postings of so many current fight fans. It's sad that the soft blur of the "nostagia lens" has allowed the simple truth to deteriorate. This guy was the weakest excuse for a HW champion of all time.
I suppose if you pull the belts apart in the last 15 years and find a one hit wonder like Bruce Seldon or his equal you could start making comparisons. But Carnera was actually full lineage. Though he did not deserve it.
Most of you know what I think of Patterson....and Patterson would have been able to even the scoreboard on all his combined knockdowns in his career if allowed to go just a few rounds with Primo.
Honestly, truely, clearly, and genuinely it's that bad of a story. He did not have the goods, it's that simple.
If anything history has distorted him as a boxer. He certainly had many fixed fights coming up but its been exaggerated that every single one was, which is untrue. He also defended the title in LEGIT bouts vs some good fighters-Uzcudun and Loughran were no joke, and Tommy especially was a much better fighter then Shannon Briggs or Leon Spinks. Carnera had a good jab, was the best infighter of all the giant HWs beside Bowe (but admittedly very dirty), had excellent stamina for a fighter his size . . .the only HW 6'4 or above who showed the stamina Primo showed in his title fights was Bowe in Holyfield 1 and John Tate. His big drawback was that he lacked real power in his right hand.
He was better then the 2nd tier giants you have today (McCline, Whitaker, Valuev) but below Vitali and a notches below the only true excellent super HWs Lewis and Bowe.
Just watch him on film, pat. the middle rounds of the Baer fight. And then look at some current guys like McCline and Whitaker. You'll see I'm not off base at all. Carnera was slow vs the 200 lbers he fought but was pretty athletic for his size and far from a bum.
Dempseyfire, my brother and I watch those Carnera fights and just like you and I , he and I disagree. I think he is slow ponderous, inaccurate (Carnera not my brother). and somehow my brother finds method in Primo's madness.
I'm not alone in my estimation, and really before nostalgia set in this was settled business by the folks who saw him live. But I always have an open mind. I'll go back and watch some, It's always fun to watch Baer batter him around.
I respect what you say, I just don't see the poetry in his motion. He always seemed out of his league, or there seemed to be some "forced aspects" to what I'm watching whenever I watch. Hey he was a pro boxer and he wasn't lazy. But he was without much natural ability in comparison with his peers.
But hey my brother always points to the genuine KO of Sharkey.....I'm tellin ya Sharkey was a bum for allowing this misrepresentation of ability to take seed. But that KO is real, just as the Ali KO of Liston is real.
I'm not big on conspiratorial thinking but it is a fact that many of Primos W's were paid for. (Not the Sharkey one) As far as him ever having the upper hand with Baer.....you just might want to remember how Sharkey got clocked......they did not respect the man. and if you get sloppy with even a somewhat good fighter, if they are taking it seriously you can get hurt or look bad. Baer was not being serious, Carnera was all business.
I do think he was as bad as his reputation. But I mean no disrespect to the man. From what I have read he was a good guy. I appreciate yours and my brother's take. But I think your both whistling in the graveyard.
I'm not alone in my estimation, and really before nostalgia set in this was settled business by the folks who saw him live. But I always have an open mind. I'll go back and watch some, It's always fun to watch Baer batter him around.
I respect what you say, I just don't see the poetry in his motion. He always seemed out of his league, or there seemed to be some "forced aspects" to what I'm watching whenever I watch. Hey he was a pro boxer and he wasn't lazy. But he was without much natural ability in comparison with his peers.
But hey my brother always points to the genuine KO of Sharkey.....I'm tellin ya Sharkey was a bum for allowing this misrepresentation of ability to take seed. But that KO is real, just as the Ali KO of Liston is real.
I'm not big on conspiratorial thinking but it is a fact that many of Primos W's were paid for. (Not the Sharkey one) As far as him ever having the upper hand with Baer.....you just might want to remember how Sharkey got clocked......they did not respect the man. and if you get sloppy with even a somewhat good fighter, if they are taking it seriously you can get hurt or look bad. Baer was not being serious, Carnera was all business.
I do think he was as bad as his reputation. But I mean no disrespect to the man. From what I have read he was a good guy. I appreciate yours and my brother's take. But I think your both whistling in the graveyard.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Baer often did joke around, but that night he was all business. In the middle rounds he simply outjabs and out-combination punches (yes . . shocking) Baer round after round. It's an amazing display esp. since many would've simply quit after that 2nd round bashing. You would've never seen Andrew Golota continue to fight like Carnera did, and fight well.BoxBuzz wrote:Dempseyfire, my brother and I watch those Carnera fights and just like you and I , he and I disagree. I think he is slow ponderous, inaccurate (Carnera not my brother). and somehow my brother finds method in Primo's madness.
I'm not alone in my estimation, and really before nostalgia set in this was settled business by the folks who saw him live. But I always have an open mind. I'll go back and watch some, It's always fun to watch Baer batter him around.
I respect what you say, I just don't see the poetry in his motion. He always seemed out of his league, or there seemed to be some "forced aspects" to what I'm watching whenever I watch. Hey he was a pro boxer and he wasn't lazy. But he was without much natural ability in comparison with his peers.
But hey my brother always points to the genuine KO of Sharkey.....I'm tellin ya Sharkey was a bum for allowing this misrepresentation of ability to take seed. But that KO is real, just as the Ali KO of Liston is real.
I'm not big on conspiratorial thinking but it is a fact that many of Primos W's were paid for. (Not the Sharkey one) As far as him ever having the upper hand with Baer.....you just might want to remember how Sharkey got clocked......they did not respect the man. and if you get sloppy with even a somewhat good fighter, if they are taking it seriously you can get hurt or look bad. Baer was not being serious, Carnera was all business.
I do think he was as bad as his reputation. But I mean no disrespect to the man. From what I have read he was a good guy. I appreciate yours and my brother's take. But I think your both whistling in the graveyard.
I used to think Carnera was not very good from watching short film clips and from reading about his fixed fights. But re-watching the Sharkey and Baer fights made me reconsider. I'm not saying he was one of the great HW champions . . . . far from it. But he was pretty much on the level of the super HWs you have no sans Lewis and Klitschko, and with better stamina/endurance then those two.
I can think of a few weaker HW champs, and if we're including paper titleists . . .well, then you have a good number.
..i'm with boxbuzzy on this except in one respect......and that's the sharkey fight. sharkey, who usually fought in a more stand up style is practically saying, "geez..preem...how many times do i have to go into a crouch before you throw an uppercut?" until primo tagged him with his wrist. i have never understood, though, the way this has been written up so many times as an "invisible punch" when it is very easy to see on film as it must have been in the stands.
primo almost surely didn't know when his fights were fixed. when he was on the wrestling circuit he came into the sports department of a newspaper and held up his hands and said , sadly, "I killed a man [ernie schaff] with these hands."
primo almost surely didn't know when his fights were fixed. when he was on the wrestling circuit he came into the sports department of a newspaper and held up his hands and said , sadly, "I killed a man [ernie schaff] with these hands."
Jaclem, we may not be as far apart as you imagine on the Sharkey fight. It may have been "influenced" but if it was, Sharkey really allowed himself to be hit with a punch that could have hurt him and I think really did hurt him. I don't see a "dive" but maybe I see a "can you please hit me hard enought to knock me down cuz otherwise I'm not leaving" scenario playing out. I just can't be sure what is going on so I have given the benefit of the doubt to Primo for all these years.
Though Sharkey is very very suspect in my mind and was known to be less than ethical in his fights as well. With Carnera he may not have known what was up, But Sharkey's dark works were with his full knowledge in my opinion.
Though Sharkey is very very suspect in my mind and was known to be less than ethical in his fights as well. With Carnera he may not have known what was up, But Sharkey's dark works were with his full knowledge in my opinion.
..buzzy..fair enough..i can't disagree with anything you've written here.
there have been more than one tank jobs where the fighter took a hard punch and didn't have to fake it. lamotta fox is an example, in a way. jake didn't go down....an odd sense of pride....but he did let fox keep hitting him until the refereee stopped it.
...willie pep was a master at the .....oh dear....this really belongs in another thread, which i am not ready to start now.
there have been more than one tank jobs where the fighter took a hard punch and didn't have to fake it. lamotta fox is an example, in a way. jake didn't go down....an odd sense of pride....but he did let fox keep hitting him until the refereee stopped it.
...willie pep was a master at the .....oh dear....this really belongs in another thread, which i am not ready to start now.
Come on Jaclem, don't tease us with these nuggets, spill the beans.Jaclem wrote:...willie pep was a master at the .....oh dear....this really belongs in another thread, which i am not ready to start now.
As for Primo Carnera Joe Louis was quoted as saying he was one of the better fighters that he fought. Read into that what you will.
To my mind Primo eventually developed into a good fight, with a good jab and stamina for such a big fighter. He may have been one of the less threatening of World Champions, but he was without doubt World class.
..interesting...i recall joe louis being quoted as saying he didn't think much of carnera..said he had a fair jab and courage but that was it. not disputing the other bomber statement.....fighters as well as others often express conflicting opinions over the years.
i love this tournament of the less-than-mediocre.
buzzy and i have expressed our opinion of carnera here. but..to give the big lug his due, i don't see any of the others listed as getting up eleven times against baer. of course, that begs the question....would baer have knocked the other ones down that often.
re: willie pep....give me a little time and i'll get to him..great great fighter but also a businessman....who often said " my big troubles were caused my fast women and slow horses."
i love this tournament of the less-than-mediocre.
buzzy and i have expressed our opinion of carnera here. but..to give the big lug his due, i don't see any of the others listed as getting up eleven times against baer. of course, that begs the question....would baer have knocked the other ones down that often.
re: willie pep....give me a little time and i'll get to him..great great fighter but also a businessman....who often said " my big troubles were caused my fast women and slow horses."