BoxRec

I wonder how Joe would look if Kessler and Lacy hadn't become champs.

In that I mean whilst the likes of Beyer, Ottke and Calzaghe were champs we had a stalemate because none of them were willing to give any ground. Then we have two young confident belt holders ready to travel to prove themselves the best.

Yes Calzaghe's record is now looking a lot better but this is because we finally had some top fighters ready to come over and challenge him. Not former champs who were desperate.

That for me will always niggle with Calzaghe, he was never ambitious enough to travel in order to call himself the number 1 like Lacy and Kessler were, like Haye has done.

Also I know he went to Vegas to fight Hopkins but that wouldn't have happened if not for Hatton v Mayweather. He saw the sort of support that was willing to travel and thought to himself i'll have some of that

Jeff and Mikkel have never beaten anyone. And if you rewind three years, it was all about Glen Johnson... Jeff and Mikkel were considered unworthy belt-holders and a waste of time, because they'd be easy wins. Then they knockout former WBC champions 10 years past their bests who were not even very good to begin with, in front of the Americans, and suddenly they're world-beaters and Warren is prepared to get his wallet out...

He can only beat what is put in front of him. What does the guy do? If he had to wait for "meaningful" fights to be made, he would have been the most inactive champion in history. You would have been seeing Bika v Pudwill for the belt.

He obviously could not make middleweight, the super-middleweight division is still a very young division. It was always going to attract guys moving up. Okay so he beat some guys who had already lost their belts, but then alot of fighters have beaten a list of ex-champions on their way up too. Calzaghe just happened to do this while being a belt holder in a weight division that had only been created a few years before he became champion.

Nobody complained when Hopkins beat a washed up Keith Holmes in 2001. Or a Simon Brown who was a shell of his former self in 1998. Or bums like Andrew Council, Morrade Hakkar or Carl Daniels.

Everyone does it, it's a way of boxing life. It has never changed.

Did someone mention Markus Beyer? This guy got starched by Glen Catley, now why didn't he fight Joe Calzaghe? Sorry I am joking.

Reyes wrote:He can only beat what is put in front of him. What does the guy do? If he had to wait for "meaningful" fights to be made, he would have been the most inactive champion in history. You would have been seeing Bika v Pudwill for the belt.

He obviously could not make middleweight, the super-middleweight division is still a very young division. It was always going to attract guys moving up. Okay so he beat some guys who had already lost their belts, but then alot of fighters have beaten a list of ex-champions on their way up too. Calzaghe just happened to do this while being a belt holder in a weight division that had only been created a few years before he became champion.

Nobody complained when Hopkins beat a washed up Keith Holmes in 2001. Or a Simon Brown who was a shell of his former self in 1998. Or bums like Andrew Council, Morrade Hakkar or Carl Daniels.

Everyone does it, it's a way of boxing life. It has never changed.

actually, plenty complained, especially about guys like hakkar.

Calazage has a nice list of names BUT he has always gone after the names when they are in decline (Lacy and Kessler being the exception). He only went after Otke after Otke had looked pretty much shot against Reid and others.

If you look at the top5 year on year Calazage has not fought top5 from the year in question. He missed mundine, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols the list goes on. When they were at their best Calazage went after the tomato cans. Sure he probably would have beat most of them but he didnt want to risk his title against fellow contenders, which smacks of protectionism

Why not go after Prime RJJ at 175 from 1997-2003? That was the biggest fight he should have tried to make. Now RJJ is 39 and being ko'd twice hes happy to make the fight. You can't completely blame him for the BHOPs fight not happening but I think BHOPs wanted to wait at 160 for Delahoya, which is understandable.

Calculating risks makes sense but I hope Joe slips on a bannana skin to be honest

Maybe some did complain Mike, but not with the same verocity that some are complaining about Calzaghe's record.

I think we can all agree that nearly every distinguished champion's record contains "marking time" fights along with fights against former champions.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Calazage has a nice list of names BUT he has always gone after the names when they are in decline (Lacy and Kessler being the exception). He only went after Otke after Otke had looked pretty much shot against Reid and others.

If you look at the top5 year on year Calazage has not fought top5 from the year in question. He missed mundine, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols the list goes on. When they were at their best Calazage went after the tomato cans. Sure he probably would have beat most of them but he didnt want to risk his title against fellow contenders, which smacks of protectionism

Why not go after Prime RJJ at 175 from 1997-2003? That was the biggest fight he should have tried to make. Now RJJ is 39 and being ko'd twice hes happy to make the fight. You can't completely blame him for the BHOPs fight not happening but I think BHOPs wanted to wait at 160 for Delahoya, which is understandable.

Calculating risks makes sense but I hope Joe slips on a bannana skin to be honest

bar ottke, none of those guys stand out above the likes of reid woodhall brewer and mitchell

mike john wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Calazage has a nice list of names BUT he has always gone after the names when they are in decline (Lacy and Kessler being the exception). He only went after Otke after Otke had looked pretty much shot against Reid and others.

If you look at the top5 year on year Calazage has not fought top5 from the year in question. He missed mundine, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols the list goes on. When they were at their best Calazage went after the tomato cans. Sure he probably would have beat most of them but he didnt want to risk his title against fellow contenders, which smacks of protectionism

Why not go after Prime RJJ at 175 from 1997-2003? That was the biggest fight he should have tried to make. Now RJJ is 39 and being ko'd twice hes happy to make the fight. You can't completely blame him for the BHOPs fight not happening but I think BHOPs wanted to wait at 160 for Delahoya, which is understandable.

Calculating risks makes sense but I hope Joe slips on a bannana skin to be honest

bar ottke, none of those guys stand out above the likes of reid woodhall brewer and mitchell

Echols ko'd Brewer in 3 a year before Calazage fought Brewer

Stylistically Mundine and Vanderpool would be very tricky for Calzage by matching him for speed and both were top5 and calling him out several years ago. I realise Lacy and Kessler beat those 2 but styles make fights

Like I said Calazage would be favourate against all BUT he didnt want to risk the chance of a defeat

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

mike john wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Calazage has a nice list of names BUT he has always gone after the names when they are in decline (Lacy and Kessler being the exception). He only went after Otke after Otke had looked pretty much shot against Reid and others.

If you look at the top5 year on year Calazage has not fought top5 from the year in question. He missed mundine, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols the list goes on. When they were at their best Calazage went after the tomato cans. Sure he probably would have beat most of them but he didnt want to risk his title against fellow contenders, which smacks of protectionism

Why not go after Prime RJJ at 175 from 1997-2003? That was the biggest fight he should have tried to make. Now RJJ is 39 and being ko'd twice hes happy to make the fight. You can't completely blame him for the BHOPs fight not happening but I think BHOPs wanted to wait at 160 for Delahoya, which is understandable.

Calculating risks makes sense but I hope Joe slips on a bannana skin to be honest

bar ottke, none of those guys stand out above the likes of reid woodhall brewer and mitchell

Echols ko'd Brewer in 3 a year before Calazage fought Brewer

Stylistically Mundine and Vanderpool would be very tricky for Calzage by matching him for speed and both were top5 and calling him out several years ago. I realise Lacy and Kessler beat those 2 but styles make fights

Like I said Calazage would be favourate against all BUT he didnt want to risk the chance of a defeat

I dunno. Lacy did beat Vanderpool.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

mike john wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Calazage has a nice list of names BUT he has always gone after the names when they are in decline (Lacy and Kessler being the exception). He only went after Otke after Otke had looked pretty much shot against Reid and others.

If you look at the top5 year on year Calazage has not fought top5 from the year in question. He missed mundine, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols the list goes on. When they were at their best Calazage went after the tomato cans. Sure he probably would have beat most of them but he didnt want to risk his title against fellow contenders, which smacks of protectionism

Why not go after Prime RJJ at 175 from 1997-2003? That was the biggest fight he should have tried to make. Now RJJ is 39 and being ko'd twice hes happy to make the fight. You can't completely blame him for the BHOPs fight not happening but I think BHOPs wanted to wait at 160 for Delahoya, which is understandable.

Calculating risks makes sense but I hope Joe slips on a bannana skin to be honest

bar ottke, none of those guys stand out above the likes of reid woodhall brewer and mitchell

Echols ko'd Brewer in 3 a year before Calazage fought Brewer

Stylistically Mundine and Vanderpool would be very tricky for Calzage by matching him for speed and both were top5 and calling him out several years ago. I realise Lacy and Kessler beat those 2 but styles make fights

Like I said Calazage would be favourate against all BUT he didnt want to risk the chance of a defeat

if you saw the echols brewer fight, you'll know the stoppage was premature after charles had his guy down numerous times. styles do indeed make fights, but the knock on calzaghe is the lack of p4p names, future hall of famers, elite opponents on his resume. of course fighters like mundine are decent. decent names arent what joe is said to be lacking

DIRT SUGAR wrote:There's always this bleating on about not fighting in America. Well show me a Stateside champion who regularly takes the show on the road to foreign soil out of any of the big names over the last 10 years?

Only time they do it is when they're titleless, past it, looking for a payday or a combination of all three.

Of course they don't. The champion is the man and it's up to all-comers to beat him in his own town in most cases. It's just how it is.

Why has Joe Calzaghe got to go to America or anywhere else for that matter to defend any title he is carrying? Get your asses out of America and come to Wales and see how you do?

I think the trouble was, Dirt, that for some time, Calzaghe was proclaiming himself the division number one whilst only holding the WBO belt, refusing to travel to meet other "champions" and defending against questionable opposition from the somewhat maufactured WBO rankings... The credibility just wasnt there for him.. Only now he's crossed the water are even his loudest critics finding something better to say.

mike john wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

mike john wrote: bar ottke, none of those guys stand out above the likes of reid woodhall brewer and mitchell

Echols ko'd Brewer in 3 a year before Calazage fought Brewer

Stylistically Mundine and Vanderpool would be very tricky for Calzage by matching him for speed and both were top5 and calling him out several years ago. I realise Lacy and Kessler beat those 2 but styles make fights

Like I said Calazage would be favourate against all BUT he didnt want to risk the chance of a defeat

if you saw the echols brewer fight, you'll know the stoppage was premature after charles had his guy down numerous times. styles do indeed make fights, but the knock on calzaghe is the lack of p4p names, future hall of famers, elite opponents on his resume. of course fighters like mundine are decent. decent names arent what joe is said to be lacking

Actually I thought the knock on him was he had too many worthless fights, too many fighters at the tail end of their careers, and a load of wasted time

Lets assess Calazages career in the years hes fought:

1998 waste of a year,
1999-2000 good years,
2001 completely wasted year
2002 wasted year
2003 decent year
2004-2005 piss poor years
2006-2008 excellent period

5 years on his record have been complete piss about years and he could have been facing mundine, beyer, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols in that time frame. He should have fought Glen Johnson when he has the chance too

STP wrote:

mike john wrote:for which fights not happening do you blame calzaghe for?

All of them?

He just wouldn't budge.

You can't necessarily blame him for all of the fights not coming off, but how can you miss so many opponents during your time as champ it can't always be the other persons fault!, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take less if you back yourself. Shame Collins retired and he never got a chance to pit his wits against an established champion

-Hopkins
-Jones
-Liles
-Toney
- Michalczewski
- Beyer
- Ottke

Still....fair play for the last 2 years though!

I think you can pick apart anyones record and say they maybe should have fought this fighter or that fighter but like someone said above Joe has beaten everyone who was put in front of him and i dont see why when he is the champ he has to fight in the US before anyone rates him.

How many U.S champs fight outside of the US?

Unless we have inside info and if anyone has please share i think its unfair to say Joe ducked anyone at all.

STP wrote:Brewer had the IBF belt. He claims he couldn't get Calzaghe to America for a unification.

Brewer had the IBF belt for literally a few months when Calzaghe was champ.

think you can pick apart anyones record and say they maybe should have fought this fighter or that fighter but like someone said above Joe has beaten everyone who was put in front of him and i dont see why when he is the champ he has to fight in the US before anyone rates him.

How many U.S champs fight outside of the US?

Unless we have inside info and if anyone has please share i think its unfair to say Joe ducked anyone at all.

Read The following RobDog.

chief wrote:

DIRT SUGAR wrote:There's always this bleating on about not fighting in America. Well show me a Stateside champion who regularly takes the show on the road to foreign soil out of any of the big names over the last 10 years?

Only time they do it is when they're titleless, past it, looking for a payday or a combination of all three.

Of course they don't. The champion is the man and it's up to all-comers to beat him in his own town in most cases. It's just how it is.

Why has Joe Calzaghe got to go to America or anywhere else for that matter to defend any title he is carrying? Get your asses out of America and come to Wales and see how you do?

I think the trouble was, Dirt, that for some time, Calzaghe was proclaiming himself the division number one whilst only holding the WBO belt, refusing to travel to meet other "champions" and defending against questionable opposition from the somewhat maufactured WBO rankings... The credibility just wasnt there for him.. Only now he's crossed the water are even his loudest critics finding something better to say.

Regarding Ottke, he was offered 1,000,000 (I presume that was £, but not sure) apparently but the fight had to be in the UK.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

mike john wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: Echols ko'd Brewer in 3 a year before Calazage fought Brewer

Stylistically Mundine and Vanderpool would be very tricky for Calzage by matching him for speed and both were top5 and calling him out several years ago. I realise Lacy and Kessler beat those 2 but styles make fights

Like I said Calazage would be favourate against all BUT he didnt want to risk the chance of a defeat

if you saw the echols brewer fight, you'll know the stoppage was premature after charles had his guy down numerous times. styles do indeed make fights, but the knock on calzaghe is the lack of p4p names, future hall of famers, elite opponents on his resume. of course fighters like mundine are decent. decent names arent what joe is said to be lacking

Actually I thought the knock on him was he had too many worthless fights, too many fighters at the tail end of their careers, and a load of wasted time

Lets assess Calazages career in the years hes fought:

1998 waste of a year,
1999-2000 good years,
2001 completely wasted year
2002 wasted year
2003 decent year
2004-2005 piss poor years
2006-2008 excellent period

5 years on his record have been complete piss about years and he could have been facing mundine, beyer, vanderpool, ottke, green, froch, echols in that time frame. He should have fought Glen Johnson when he has the chance too

everyone has their less than stellar fights. throw one big name from their prime on joes record and it stands up to most of the best fighting today

Ottke and Beyer were the two big ommisions.

The thing that alot of Brits (even big time Calzaghe fans who tipped him to beat Jones) on another forum that I posted on (before this one opened) has been fustrated.... that while the likes of Mitchell, Brewer, Woodhall etc are OKAY names, they are hardly P4P material - and Joe could have stood them on their head in 1998-1999... so why didn't he. Why did he wait for the all three to lose before facing them. Why didn't he get to Mitchell BEFORE Ottke, same with Brewer and Woodhall before Beyer did.

chief wrote:

DIRT SUGAR wrote:There's always this bleating on about not fighting in America. Well show me a Stateside champion who regularly takes the show on the road to foreign soil out of any of the big names over the last 10 years?

Only time they do it is when they're titleless, past it, looking for a payday or a combination of all three.

Of course they don't. The champion is the man and it's up to all-comers to beat him in his own town in most cases. It's just how it is.

Why has Joe Calzaghe got to go to America or anywhere else for that matter to defend any title he is carrying? Get your asses out of America and come to Wales and see how you do?

I think the trouble was, Dirt, that for some time, Calzaghe was proclaiming himself the division number one whilst only holding the WBO belt, refusing to travel to meet other "champions" and defending against questionable opposition from the somewhat maufactured WBO rankings... The credibility just wasnt there for him.. Only now he's crossed the water are even his loudest critics finding something better to say.

Hammer, nail, head chief. While you could say Joe never ducked anyone (e,g Ottke, Beyer, Mitchell(when he was champ) ) he never chased the biggest challenges out there in order to prove himself the best and was content to stay in Wales and defend against some decent, some not-so decent challengers. Basically he didn't take big risks in order to prove himself the best. He should have pushed for the Ottke/Beyer fights, concede home advantage and go prove you are the best. He wasn't willing to take those risks and I believe this will count against him when considering his legacy and where he ranks all time. He had the ability to be WBA/WBC/IBF/WBO champ right at the beginning of his championship reign and he would have been a p4p entrant much earlier if he had chased the big fights instead of wasting time with fights like Pudwill, Mcintyre, Thornberry, Sobot, Ashira, Jimenez, Mger M"whatyacallit"chian....

John Dillinger wrote:There's often talk on here about the quality of opponents that JC faced prior to Lacy. I don't think anyone can question Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell or Brewer. They were solid ex champs, Reid and Brewer carried on at a high level for some time afterwards.

Equally there's no doubt Pudwill and MCintyre were poor. But most of the others on JC's record look to me in hindsight to be decent names. Thorberry went onto to take Ottke to points and lost to Mundine. Shieka later fought Ottke I think and Beyer and Brewer. Starie fought Ottke.Salem had just lost to viet and went on to fight Bute. Veit later beat Brewer and Braehmer.

Yes there have been some very average defences eg Ashira, Jiminez but on the whole it's not a bad list.

First line said it all - ex world champs who were past their best - and you picked out the best of his opposition.

The first real quality fighter Calzaghe fought in his prime was Kessler and props to him for winning that fight.

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime RJJ?

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime Tarver??

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime Bernard Hopkins??

No, yes, No.

Spud wrote:

John Dillinger wrote:There's often talk on here about the quality of opponents that JC faced prior to Lacy. I don't think anyone can question Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell or Brewer. They were solid ex champs, Reid and Brewer carried on at a high level for some time afterwards.

Equally there's no doubt Pudwill and MCintyre were poor. But most of the others on JC's record look to me in hindsight to be decent names. Thorberry went onto to take Ottke to points and lost to Mundine. Shieka later fought Ottke I think and Beyer and Brewer. Starie fought Ottke.Salem had just lost to viet and went on to fight Bute. Veit later beat Brewer and Braehmer.

Yes there have been some very average defences eg Ashira, Jiminez but on the whole it's not a bad list.

First line said it all - ex world champs who were past their best - and you picked out the best of his opposition.

The first real quality fighter Calzaghe fought in his prime was Kessler and props to him for winning that fight.

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime RJJ?

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime Tarver??

Would Calzaghe have beaten a prime Bernard Hopkins??

I'm with StuJones.

No.
Yes.
No. (as their Fight Proved).

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:Regarding Ottke, he was offered 1,000,000 (I presume that was £, but not sure) apparently but the fight had to be in the UK.

And that is an understandable demand. Why would Calzaghe risk everything fighting Ottke when he knew he would get jobbed if he didn't get the stoppage.