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Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 04 Aug 2008, 08:33
by DavidPayne
Depends on your definition of 'better' Observer?
However, I think the word engineered is a terrific way to describe Calzaghe's career.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 04 Aug 2008, 08:50
by Coco
observer1 wrote:Calzaghe. "Why!?" i hear you shout. Well, IMO He wasted his best years "fighting"in the same division.
Instead of going for Prime for Prime with the best, such as Roy Jones, Hopkins, Tarver and Trinidad etc. did...
With the 'guidance' of Warren, he stayed at the same division fighting mediocre fighters. The best fights he had were against an over-rated club fighter (lacy), Good (but not World-Class) Kessler and a 43 year old man Hopkins. An absoloute disgrace such a talented fighter has had such a poor resume, especially when he had the talten and oppurtunities to fight the best.
Ok, so Tarver, Hopkins and RJJ have lost, but Losses mean nothing when you have going prime for Prime against the best.
As a Calzaghe Fan, i feel he has just wasted his talent and had a very engineered career. OK so he would have probably lost against a Prime Hopkins and RJJ, but it's better to have lost Prime for Prime than to beat an over the hill past-champion.
That statement only really applies to RJJ
Hopkins stayed at his own weight in a mediocre division fighting mediocre fighters for many years. He had a couple of fights against blown up welterweights, but had a far more saftey first attitude than JC in his matchmaking and this is reflected in his fighting style. He only moved up in weight as he was in a weaker negiotiating position and had to look for fights. By this time he had been a professional for 18 years and was aged 41. It was Bernard who wasted his prime.
Tarver never moved through the weights and again wasn't in a great division. His only heavier venture was to fight Rocky and getting RJJ at the right time will put him in the history books, but that is his only success in the bigger picture.
And I think you will find in retrospect that Kessler is a world class fighter
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 04 Aug 2008, 14:47
by Gray-Fox
Agree with Coco about Joe Calzone.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 04 Aug 2008, 17:13
by SOUTHPAW
Naz
Could have,should have been a great but stopped listening and let idiots around him take over
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 05 Aug 2008, 05:02
by observer1
Coco wrote:observer1 wrote:Calzaghe. "Why!?" i hear you shout. Well, IMO He wasted his best years "fighting"in the same division.
Instead of going for Prime for Prime with the best, such as Roy Jones, Hopkins, Tarver and Trinidad etc. did...
With the 'guidance' of Warren, he stayed at the same division fighting mediocre fighters. The best fights he had were against an over-rated club fighter (lacy), Good (but not World-Class) Kessler and a 43 year old man Hopkins. An absoloute disgrace such a talented fighter has had such a poor resume, especially when he had the talten and oppurtunities to fight the best.
Ok, so Tarver, Hopkins and RJJ have lost, but Losses mean nothing when you have going prime for Prime against the best.
As a Calzaghe Fan, i feel he has just wasted his talent and had a very engineered career. OK so he would have probably lost against a Prime Hopkins and RJJ, but it's better to have lost Prime for Prime than to beat an over the hill past-champion.
That statement only really applies to RJJ
Hopkins stayed at his own weight in a mediocre division fighting mediocre fighters for many years. He had a couple of fights against blown up welterweights, but had a far more saftey first attitude than JC in his matchmaking and this is reflected in his fighting style. He only moved up in weight as he was in a weaker negiotiating position and had to look for fights. By this time he had been a professional for 18 years and was aged 41. It was Bernard who wasted his prime.
Tarver never moved through the weights and again wasn't in a great division. His only heavier venture was to fight Rocky and getting RJJ at the right time will put him in the history books, but that is his only success in the bigger picture.
And I think you will find in retrospect that Kessler is a world class fighter
hmm, good post. But i would differ when saying Hopkins wasted his prime. Problem with Hopkins he was never in a position to call the shots, so always was on the backfoot when it came to fighting the big names, but even then, he eventualy did. With Calzaghe, along with Warren, he had the ability to call the shots easily.
The point is these guys all fought each other when the time was right. That is something you cannot deny.
As for Kessler, he will no doubt eventually be a World Class fighter, but as for when he fought Calzaghe? There was only one winner from the start.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 05 Aug 2008, 06:35
by hitman_hatton1
Autobarn wrote:I don't like Judah either. I like watching other fighters beat him.
i knew clottey would hammer him on saturday.
had to be worth staying up for.
just a shame judah quit on us and spoiled our fun.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 05 Aug 2008, 20:00
by stujones
Joe Calzaghe had a perfectly managed career. Some might say he wasted his talent, I would think that he would lose to at least two of the three fighters he should have fought... Prime Jones and Prime Hopkins. He might have beaten Ottke, but its no forgone conclusion that one either.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 06 Aug 2008, 16:12
by Grilling Machine
Lennox during the '90s. In contrast, Bruno made the most of his potential in those years.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 06 Aug 2008, 18:58
by E
stujones wrote:I'd also hate to imagine how good Kirklaind Laing could have been if he was focused.
A myth. HE trained it to his all against Colin Jones and stillgot Ko'd. Broke his heart and took away his determination.
Don't forget he also got Ko'd by Buck Smith.And look at him there - he was doing great and physically hardly looked out of shape.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 06 Aug 2008, 20:26
by Gray-Fox
E wrote:stujones wrote:I'd also hate to imagine how good Kirklaind Laing could have been if he was focused.
A myth. HE trained it to his all against Colin Jones and stillgot Ko'd. Broke his heart and took away his determination.
.
THat's what I was thinking. Thing about him and all his talent is just hype. He was good and could have been better, but he was slightly overrated imo.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 07 Aug 2008, 05:23
by SOUTHPAW
E
Are u Colin Jones
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 07 Aug 2008, 06:13
by twenty six
Do you know what ?
I fear Carl Froch is going to join this club.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 10 Aug 2008, 09:34
by Coco
How about Eammon Magee?
Never really trained hard, also a smoker, was still a good Euro champ, floored Hatton, but didn't have the gas to put sufficient work in
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 06:27
by metchampion
Randolph Turpin, Leon Spinks, Tyrell Biggs, Nicky Booth, John Conteh, Benny Lynch
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 09:56
by E
SOUTHPAW wrote:E
Are u Colin Jones
No! but I do think him and his achievements were underrated.
From a UK perspective wasn't Danny Costello menat to be rteally good but went off the rails badly....maybe I've got the wrong name
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 11:03
by TheGoods
Benny Lynch
Bernard Mays
Rickey Womack
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 12:23
by Coco
E wrote:SOUTHPAW wrote:E
Are u Colin Jones
No! but I do think him and his achievements were underrated.
From a UK perspective wasn't Danny Costello menat to be rteally good but went off the rails badly....maybe I've got the wrong name
Both Evatt and Costello were supposed to be fantastic, Blue Boy Gallagher as well, but their lifestyles apparently let them down
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 12:34
by bennie
Eddie Thomas was a great, great cornerman but there is no doubt his decision to take the money and travel to the States with Colin Jones, cost his man the WBC welterweight title.
The Gorseinon gravedigger would definitely have licked Milton McCrory over here.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 13:04
by stujones
Evatt is coming back isn't he?
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 16:08
by metchampion
Colin Derrick
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 16:24
by Scrap
Jesus Colin Derrick Ill second that, what could have been
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 16:39
by E
Scrap wrote:Jesus Colin Derrick Ill second that, what could have been
Who's he?
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 16:59
by J
just one point and dont take offence coco not aimed at you it just pisses me off when folk refer to Tito and Oscar as blown up welterwights.
Tito hadnt fought at welter for nearly two years by the time hopkins fought him and Oscar nearly 4 years so can we stop saying they were blown up welterweights.
Otherwise lets refer to Tommy hearns as a blown up welterwight when he fought hagler.
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 18:30
by Coco
J wrote:just one point and dont take offence coco not aimed at you it just pisses me off when folk refer to Tito and Oscar as blown up welterwights.
Tito hadnt fought at welter for nearly two years by the time hopkins fought him and Oscar nearly 4 years so can we stop saying they were blown up welterweights.
Otherwise lets refer to Tommy hearns as a blown up welterwight when he fought hagler.
No offence taken, but when Hearns fought Hagler he was a very established light middle weight, having wins against Duran and Benetiz, and went on to establish himself at middleweight and higher weights still. Therefore I agree Hearns was not a blown up welterweight, he was freakishly big when he fought down there.
On the other hand I could have called ODLH a blown up super featherweight, but he has outgrown the division, but he can still make welter, at middle he only got a gift against Sturm and Hopkins exposed him for not being strong enough at the weight.
Trinidad again was best at welter, he did establish himself at l/middle, but certainly at no higher weight than that and again he was exposed by Hopkins as being too weak at middle
Re: wasted talent over the years
Posted: 12 Aug 2008, 18:59
by stujones
Hang on so DLH had wins over Castilejo (future Middleweight champion), Vargas and essentially (how he didn't get the decision is beyond me) Mosley at Light Middle.
How is that not established.... Hearns' two big Light Middle wins came against a blown up Welter and a blown up Lightweight.
Its a weird thing with Hearns, I have read that he has declared Middleweight as his best weight and he did establish himself at Light Heavy - but at Middleweight he won the title looking shaky, and not a great version of the title, and he lost it in his first defence.
About as established as Tito was at the weight... Tito beat the #2 in the devision, also beat a former world champion still very much in the top ten post Hopkins.
DLH was clearly established at Light Middle (his best performances/victories have come at this weight)... Tito I would argue was at Middleweight. DLH was no Middleweight.