BoxRec

Or Liddell vs Silva; http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C6AQKxN0CRI

Ben Carey wrote:I don't think the UFC can match the kind of back-and-forth action that Boxing can (but rarely does) produce at its best, as shown by Froch vs Pascal on Saturday night which made for enthralling viewing.

UFC may contain more competitive matches on paper but purely in terms of entertainment I don't think they deliver when truly analysed. Name me some great UFC matches which swing one way and then the other? UFC is anti-climax for me. All the build-up, all the potential excitement and then either the fight becomes a messy borefest on the ground OR it's over in an instant.

At the top-level of UFC if you make a mistake the fight can end in instant. While that may make for some memorable finishes and a great highlights show reel, I don't think this makes for exciting, suspence-ridden fights. Boxing makes for better drama. A boxer can be knocked down and on the verge of being stopped but can survive, battle his way back and then turn the fight around. UFC seldom offers the same kind of drama.

Good to see you posting again Ben
I still enjoy watching boxing more than UFC (with the proviso that it's a competitive match), but as Eraserhead pointed out in his excellent post, in terms of the brand and/or the event, UFC is streets ahead. Boxing is still very 'old school' in its custmoer service (to put it politely!) and is just appalling in terms of effective marketing (witness 'Bootyluv' at Nottingham - dire).
Younger generations have a greater level of choice and a higher level of expectation so if promoters don't raise their game the sport will continue to lose market share.

Deserter wrote:

Ben Carey wrote:I don't think the UFC can match the kind of back-and-forth action that Boxing can (but rarely does) produce at its best, as shown by Froch vs Pascal on Saturday night which made for enthralling viewing.

UFC may contain more competitive matches on paper but purely in terms of entertainment I don't think they deliver when truly analysed. Name me some great UFC matches which swing one way and then the other? UFC is anti-climax for me. All the build-up, all the potential excitement and then either the fight becomes a messy borefest on the ground OR it's over in an instant.

At the top-level of UFC if you make a mistake the fight can end in instant. While that may make for some memorable finishes and a great highlights show reel, I don't think this makes for exciting, suspence-ridden fights. Boxing makes for better drama. A boxer can be knocked down and on the verge of being stopped but can survive, battle his way back and then turn the fight around. UFC seldom offers the same kind of drama.

Good to see you posting again Ben
I still enjoy watching boxing more than UFC (with the proviso that it's a competitive match), but as Eraserhead pointed out in his excellent post, in terms of the brand and/or the event, UFC is streets ahead. Boxing is still very 'old school' in its custmoer service (to put it politely!) and is just appalling in terms of effective marketing (witness 'Bootyluv' at Nottingham - dire).
Younger generations have a greater level of choice and a higher level of expectation so if promoters don't raise their game the sport will continue to lose market share.

Hi Deserter,

I agree about UFC's more polished marketing but, try as a I might, I just can't get into the sport (thanks to those who pointed me in the direction of some classic UFC duels - I'll take a look).

Here's another question, is Boxing directly competing with UFC for audience share? We're seeing a maximum of 6 (maybe even less) UFC cards in the UK per year - hardly enough to send boxing into the doldrums by itself. Also, will the UFC ever secure prime-time terrestrial tv coverage in the UK due to the gruesome nature of its fights?

I think people are going along to watch UFC cards because its still relatively new over here and they are duped into thinking the fights they've paid to see will be like the spectacular highlights that are played over and over again by UFC's marketing team. I wonder how many of them would go again? That's just my gut feeling as a sceptic.

I'd also be interested to know how much tickets cost to watch UFC.

if anything saturday night proved why boxing will always be a fundamentally superior product than MMA.
look at pacquaio's victory over DLH. that is the kind of win that makes all sports fans sit up and take notice. you have DLH going from olympic gold (never going to happen with MMA) through a long, brilliant career being outboxed by a smaller, focused superstar from asia, who gets his entire country to sit down and watch every time he fights. MMA can't match that.

it seems a bit ridiculous to be talking about a completely meaningless fight involving kristian laight and how this is indicative of what is going wrong in boxing, when we have just witnessed one of the best ever victories in a ring.

maybe peter buckley lost on the same night as buster douglas beat tyson too......

Ben, if you ever need any more help on UFC, PRIDE or WEC we're all pretty helpful and chat about it over PM (couldn't do it on the forum, it's forbidden). Terrible Terry and Lawllb are very useful people to ask as well, helpful too!

With regard to the demographic, UFC is marketed at 18-30 whereas my gut feel is boxing is more rangey, say 18-50.

Tickets range from £45 to £295 for UFC 95 at the O2. My only concern about seeing it live is how hindering the view is because of the cage. Personally I think boxing has a better atmosphere live. UFC holds the UK record for sales for every venue it's been to here. And it's been to most more than once.

With regard to MMA not having shocks, UFC actually has more than people realise:
Lesnar v Couture
Griffin v Jackson
Evans v Liddell

And that was only this year.

The biggest of all was Serra v GSP. It was on a par with L Spinks v Ali I.

My main hatred of UFC is the 0fans it attracts in Britain - usually meathead muppets who only understand blood and guts.

I totally accept that behind UFC there are various art forms at play that are just as beautiful and difficult to execute as boxing (jiu jitsu, grappling etc)...but that isn't how UFC is marketed, and it's certainly not how the majority of idiots I hear discussing it relay the fights they've seen.

I personally derive joy from seeing check left hooks, pull counters, lay back counters etc...

It's unlikely that the majority of meatheads that watch UFC (certainly in my experience) derive joy from seeing Antonio Noguiera execute the same type of move as a striker in UFC. They wouldn't even see the technique.

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Tickets range from £45 to £295 for UFC 95 at the O2. My only concern about seeing it live is how hindering the view is because of the cage. Personally I think boxing has a better atmosphere live. UFC holds the UK record for sales for every venue it's been to here. And it's been to most more than once.

I take it you'll be going to 95? What tickets would you suggest at the O2?... I see they're doing £45, 75, 100, 150 + + tickets....

Can someone explain what it's like at a live UFC event with the cage in the way of action?

Or do they have like a top down seating arrangement?

Gray-Fox wrote:My main hatred of UFC is the 0fans it attracts in Britain - usually meathead muppets who only understand blood and guts.

I totally accept that behind UFC there are various art forms at play that are just as beautiful and difficult to execute as boxing (jiu jitsu, grappling etc)...but that isn't how UFC is marketed, and it's certainly not how the majority of idiots I hear discussing it relay the fights they've seen.

They're only the same idiots who are all of a sudden "know-it-all" boxing fans everytime a big fight is on down the pub.

Fighting as a whole, and by it's nature - will attract that element of society. There's plenty of "meathead muppets" who talk about boxing like they're Angelo Dundee or something...

lowersmiths wrote:it seems a bit ridiculous to be talking about a completely meaningless fight involving kristian laight and how this is indicative of what is going wrong in boxing, when we have just witnessed one of the best ever victories in a ring.

maybe peter buckley lost on the same night as buster douglas beat tyson too......

It's hardly a valid comparison. Any business should be aiming to offer value for money - and Hennessy delivered on Saturday night, but for every Saturday night in Nottingham there are far too many cards/events that fail to meet this criteria.
And as I said, even on Saturday, there were disgruntled punters around me who would have been very pissed off at paying out £100+ for tickets if Froch and Pascal had ended in a one-round blow-out.
It's about seeing the bigger picture Lowersmiths, and not allowing one good bill to paper over the fundamental cracks in the business model.

EddieShredder wrote:

Gray-Fox wrote:My main hatred of UFC is the 0fans it attracts in Britain - usually meathead muppets who only understand blood and guts.

I totally accept that behind UFC there are various art forms at play that are just as beautiful and difficult to execute as boxing (jiu jitsu, grappling etc)...but that isn't how UFC is marketed, and it's certainly not how the majority of idiots I hear discussing it relay the fights they've seen.

They're only the same idiots who are all of a sudden "know-it-all" boxing fans everytime a big fight is on down the pub.

Fighting as a whole, and by it's nature - will attract that element of society. There's plenty of "meathead muppets" who talk about boxing like they're Angelo Dundee or something...

There are plenty, I agree. But there are plenty too, i.e. those on this forum...who like to discuss the art and subtle side.

I don't doubt there are similar on MMA forums, but I would hazard a guess they're generally not from Britain.

EddieShredder wrote:

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Tickets range from £45 to £295 for UFC 95 at the O2. My only concern about seeing it live is how hindering the view is because of the cage. Personally I think boxing has a better atmosphere live. UFC holds the UK record for sales for every venue it's been to here. And it's been to most more than once.

I take it you'll be going to 95? What tickets would you suggest at the O2?... I see they're doing £45, 75, 100, 150 + + tickets....

I can't find someone to go with me. I had the pre-sale code as well.

I would recommend the £100 ones, but it looks like all the decent seats of it have gone now and you'll be towards the back. Definitely no cheaper!

Ben Carey wrote:Here's another question, is Boxing directly competing with UFC for audience share? We're seeing a maximum of 6 (maybe even less) UFC cards in the UK per year - hardly enough to send boxing into the doldrums by itself. Also, will the UFC ever secure prime-time terrestrial tv coverage in the UK due to the gruesome nature of its fights?

I think people are going along to watch UFC cards because its still relatively new over here and they are duped into thinking the fights they've paid to see will be like the spectacular highlights that are played over and over again by UFC's marketing team. I wonder how many of them would go again? That's just my gut feeling as a sceptic.

I'd also be interested to know how much tickets cost to watch UFC.

Ben, I think the main thing as an observer that's striking me is two-fold:

1) The penetration of UFC as a brand into the younger demographic.

2) The grass-roots growth of MMA as a whole, both in terms of participation and spectactorship... and that growth seems to be accelerating.

It's perfectly plausible that its growth could suddenly plateau and it co-exists alongside boxing in a niche, but there's only a finite audience out there for combat sports and so it's inevitable that you're still in a fight for market share.. and in terms of new entrants to market UFC/MMA is winning as it's capturing the imagination of youngsters.
To use a crude analogy, there was a time where Woolworths was one of the UK's leading retailers...

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:

EddieShredder wrote:

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Tickets range from £45 to £295 for UFC 95 at the O2. My only concern about seeing it live is how hindering the view is because of the cage. Personally I think boxing has a better atmosphere live. UFC holds the UK record for sales for every venue it's been to here. And it's been to most more than once.

I take it you'll be going to 95? What tickets would you suggest at the O2?... I see they're doing £45, 75, 100, 150 + + tickets....

I can't find someone to go with me. I had the pre-sale code as well.

I would recommend the £100 ones, but it looks like all the decent seats of it have gone now and you'll be towards the back. Definitely no cheaper!

I haven't been to one yet.... Was waiting for the line-up to be announced, but want to go! Will let you know if I am gonna get tickets... you're welcome to join

Let me know mate. I might be in AC covering Jennings v Cotto, though.

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:Let me know mate. I might be in AC covering Jennings v Cotto, though.

Will do mate... I'll know either way before I piss off for a month at the end of dec, so will let you know by then

Ben Carey wrote:
Here's another question, is Boxing directly competing with UFC for audience share? We're seeing a maximum of 6 (maybe even less) UFC cards in the UK per year - hardly enough to send boxing into the doldrums by itself. Also, will the UFC ever secure prime-time terrestrial tv coverage in the UK due to the gruesome nature of its fights?

I think people are going along to watch UFC cards because its still relatively new over here and they are duped into thinking the fights they've paid to see will be like the spectacular highlights that are played over and over again by UFC's marketing team. I wonder how many of them would go again? That's just my gut feeling as a sceptic.

To be honest, there seems to be a more sustainable audience for the UFC than boxing. Like I said before, the UFC have a product. They can tour all around the country and attract fans - many of which will be the same fans - no matter who is fighting. Get this - you can sell UFC events in the UK without even featuring a Brit anywhere near the headliner! You could have a fight between a Brazilian and a Jap and it would do very good numbers. If they put on a show in London, they'll attract fans from Birmingham, Manchester, Ireland and America. Once you've been to a UFC show, you'll know what you're going to get the next time. That's part of the reason they sell a good deal of tickets before even announcing a fight.

If it is only six shows a year, I guarantee those six shows will be higher in quality than the top six boxing shows in Britain. The fans of MMA know that, too. We're not talking about half-arsed shows at the Goresbrook Leisure Centre. When the UFC come to town, they deliver the goods. Fans know that, and that is why the tickets go like hotcakes.

I'm in agreement about the sport argument - boxing will always be tops in my eyes. You can't get a Cotto-Margarito or a Hatton-Mayweather in MMA. Not to me, at least. You get some great fights in MMA, but everything pales in comparison to a truly great boxing match.

The worrying thing is, look at boxing right now. How many more marquee match-ups can it churn out in the next five years? Who is coming through with the ability to do big numbers and catch the imagination of the public?

In a sport that relies heavily on the fighters - as opposed to one brand - we may have shot ourselves in the foot. Boxing can't sell itself on boxing. It needs big fighters and big fights. We're already losing a lot of the kids. Ask any youngster whether they'd like to go to an upcoming UFC event in the UK or a Sports Network (or any other British promoter) extravaganza and I can assure you they'll choose to watch that grubby little sport with nasty chokes, kicking in the balls, spandex shorts and Condom sponsors. You can't blame 'em really

Deserter wrote:

lowersmiths wrote:it seems a bit ridiculous to be talking about a completely meaningless fight involving kristian laight and how this is indicative of what is going wrong in boxing, when we have just witnessed one of the best ever victories in a ring.

maybe peter buckley lost on the same night as buster douglas beat tyson too......

It's hardly a valid comparison. Any business should be aiming to offer value for money - and Hennessy delivered on Saturday night, but for every Saturday night in Nottingham there are far too many cards/events that fail to meet this criteria.
And as I said, even on Saturday, there were disgruntled punters around me who would have been very pissed off at paying out £100+ for tickets if Froch and Pascal had ended in a one-round blow-out.
It's about seeing the bigger picture Lowersmiths, and not allowing one good bill to paper over the fundamental cracks in the business model.

if you want to compare business models, then perhaps compare how much money boxing the UK generates per year in terms of ticket sales against MMA.

There are probably five or six boxing shows every week in the UK, compared to (and this is a guess) 20 MMA shows per year. The reason the UFC gets a sellout is because it is an ''event''. If there were only 20 boxing shows in the UK per year then the quality would be exceptional, but the fighters and fights are spread around at the moment to meet demand.

Boxing has survived for many decades because the product is sellable. Small hall shows may not whet the average sports fan's appetite but, in essence, they are an example of how boxing survives - they sell tickets to punters with no TV. If the product was unwanted, then these shows would simply go under but they don't

Let's not forget this year has also seen 55,000 fans paying to watch Hatton fight live in the UK. Could MMA match that - no, never.

Edited by mod

lowersmiths wrote:

Deserter wrote:

lowersmiths wrote:it seems a bit ridiculous to be talking about a completely meaningless fight involving kristian laight and how this is indicative of what is going wrong in boxing, when we have just witnessed one of the best ever victories in a ring.

maybe peter buckley lost on the same night as buster douglas beat tyson too......

It's hardly a valid comparison. Any business should be aiming to offer value for money - and Hennessy delivered on Saturday night, but for every Saturday night in Nottingham there are far too many cards/events that fail to meet this criteria.
And as I said, even on Saturday, there were disgruntled punters around me who would have been very pissed off at paying out £100+ for tickets if Froch and Pascal had ended in a one-round blow-out.
It's about seeing the bigger picture Lowersmiths, and not allowing one good bill to paper over the fundamental cracks in the business model.

if you want to compare business models, then perhaps compare how much money boxing the UK generates per year in terms of ticket sales against MMA.

There are probably five or six boxing shows every week in the UK, compared to (and this is a guess) 20 MMA shows per year. The reason the UFC gets a sellout is because it is an ''event''. If there were only 20 boxing shows in the UK per year then the quality would be exceptional, but the fighters and fights are spread around at the moment to meet demand.

Boxing has survived for many decades because the product is sellable. Small hall shows may not whet the average sports fan's appetite but, in essence, they are an example of how boxing survives - they sell tickets to punters with no TV. If the product was unwanted, then these shows would simply go under but they don't

Let's not forget this year has also seen 55,000 fans paying to watch Hatton fight live in the UK. Could MMA match that - no, never.

I don't mean this in a disrespectful manner, but you're being short-sighted. For starters you're missing the hundreds of MMA shows being staged around the country at a grass roots level that are comfortably the equivalent of boxing's small hall shows. And ask boxing's small hall promoters at the moment how badly they're being squeezed by the combination of the emergence of MMA and the general economic climate and you'll get a genuine answer from the guys in the 'front line'.
But that aside, just because UFC is still behind boxing on certain metrics, doesn't mean things will stay that way. To use an analogy that you'll understand better than most, take a look at the regional paper market in the UK. What was once a proud, profitable robust business is now seemingly in irreversible decline, with massive falls in circulation, job cuts and huge shortfalls in advertising revenue. Now we can argue all we want about catalysts like lack of editorial investment etc, but the fundamental cause has been a failure of the business model to adapt to different customer needs, with the result that young people haven't developed a newspaper-buying habit. Regional papers now have an aging/dying readership with no 'new blood' coming through to replace them. Yet if you'd put this to the editor of the Yorkshire Post or Manchester Evening News just 20 years ago you'd have been laughed out of the room.
The emergence of UFC doesn't threaten to kill boxing, but it definitely has the potential to knock it off its perch and make it more of a marginalised offering (the key word being potential). If anyone doesn't recognise this threat they are being naive.
Oh, and by the way, there's no way that fighters and fights are 'spread around' as if it's some sort of altruistic gesture, it's rather because of the whole business structure regarding promoters etc.

exittored wrote:Edited by mod

It's precisely because Saturday reminded me of why I love boxing so much that I posted this - because if we don't have more Froch vs Pascal and less Khan Vs Fagin, the sport we all love will be in trouble. If that's not worth debating I don't know what is!

Endless Hatton and Khan threads maybe? That would make a change.

No more personal insults please posters.

[quote="lowersmiths"]if you want to compare business models, then perhaps compare how much money boxing the UK generates per year in terms of ticket sales against MMA.

There are probably five or six boxing shows every week in the UK, compared to (and this is a guess) 20 MMA shows per year. The reason the UFC gets a sellout is because it is an ''event''. If there were only 20 boxing shows in the UK per year then the quality would be exceptional, but the fighters and fights are spread around at the moment to meet demand.[quote]

I'm don't think one Brit MMA fighter could generate the interest/excitement/revenue of Hatton. I'm not even sure we'll see a Boxer repeat the success. And it's a good point about the frequency of shows. Perhaps there's too many, thus saturating the market, for the price we are expected to pay for the "bigger" shows? Had the Sky UK PPV been competitive, fans without SKY + would be in a quandry.

For instance, FW.TV have another bill this weekend. Why not combine the two and make a better product to sell more tickets and PPV?

I'm actually very insulted and i'd hope most true boxing fan's are also insulted that on a boxing only website you've brought this bloody debate up again especially after one of the best weekend's of boxing i've seen in a while, i'm still buzzing from the Carl Froch vs Jean Pascal fight plus the amazing performance from Manny Paquio

Strange how all the usual suspects crawl out of the woodwork, yes you Ant Evans, just wish you'd all just F.O back to your shite fecking mma websites and watch the fecking shite that UFC/MMA has to offer and leave us all alone

Look Deserter, i wasn't really having a go at you although i do object to another boxing vs mma debate, Ant Evans just brings outs the worst in me with his constant knocks of boxing whilst acting as though UFC is this wonderful thing! BULLSHIT, i have watched probably about 5 UFC shows over the years and its a big myth they are really competitive from top to bottom plus they have plenty of boring fights too, one very good boxing fight beats a whole UFC show hands down anytime!

Is UFC better marketed and Promoted than Boxing? YES on that, its ahead of boxing at the moment as they put some real money on posters, television/radio adverts and billboards rather than the old fashioned way boxing has been doing it but it's catching up with what Golden Boy is doing in America with cross promotions and starting to bring back major sponsorships back to the sport.

The Biggest problem with Boxing is the way its run, has nothing to do with UFC, whats the point of even bringing it up!

i honestly dont think boxing is in decline.