Top 100 ATG - My Personal List

[Ambling Alp]

Overall, a pretty good list.
The top 10 isn't exactly the 10 that I would have, but it's realistic.

The following are too low:
Monzon at #16
Ray Leonard at #12
Tunney at #26
Spinks at #47.
Fullmer at #108
Loi at #123

The following are way too low:
Saldivar at #105
Harold Johnson at #103
Benvenuti at #120
All three are at least Top 75

Lou Ambers at #111 might be where I disagree the most. He is defintely Top 50.

Not Listed:
Sammy Mandell

Too high:
Whitaker at #13
Marciano at #25
Burley at #40
Buchanan at #122
Tapia at #130 (Wouldn't have him in the Top 200)

Hope this doesn't sound too critical. You aren't ever going to be complete agreement. There was certainly a lot of thought and not any obvious bias that I saw.
Often people will criticize lists like this mostly because they want their personal favorites to be rated higher than they should and the they want guys they hate to be lower.
Good effort.

[bjermaine]

- Joe didn't retire on his fake laurels at age 30 in advance of the two largest purses in the history of boxing not named Oscar.

joe had his fake laurels for almost his entire career. he fought bums until he decided to take a chance against a 43 yr old bhop. then after slapping his way to a close decision he went after a shot jones because that's calzaghe's style. he's a complete fraud. froch is stepping up and taking dangerous fights unlike super jo"k"e. it's not even worth trying to match-up calzaghe in fantasy prime vs prime fights with truly great fighters. joe would have never stepped in the ring with any of them.

Yeah, because no one did fearless, take-on-all-comers like Roy. Dumbass. Are dumbasses a race? Consider me racist, then. I don't like your kind

i knew you were racist! i've never had a stalker on these message boards. every time i write something, here comes that crazy bitch irene to post right behind it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Roy Jones really took on all-comers, didn't he? LOL.

[I Feel Fine]

It is easy to nitpick these lists, not quite so easy to make one out and have the guts to post it knowing that there will almost certainly be criticism. So I give you credit for posting that.

That said, Ali and Louis are too high, Greb is too low. I think Duran is a little high, but that's just me. I think Benny Leonard is a little low. In my view Whitaker is arguably the best of the last 20 years, but he is at least 10-15 too high. I think Tunney, P4P, has to be higher than Marciano. I think Gavilan is too low and I think Pacquiao is too high; even if he should be ahead of Mayweather, he should not be that far ahead. I also don't think Mayweather makes top 50. There are plenty of others, but I would say those, having just skimmed through the list.

[I Feel Fine]

I place Duran in the same class as Ali & Robinson --- three fighters who will never live up to the hype, in spite of their own greatness. Duran is the most over-rated of all the truly great 135lbers. He loses to Whitaker, & to Leonard, too, for that matter.

Forgetting Ali and Robinson, which I am sure we've beaten to death, and reiterating my last post where I said that Whitaker is arguably (ok, forget that, Whitaker is almost certainly...) the best fighter of the last 20 years; I do think your post is a little unfair. I would favor Duran to beat Whitaker, and even though I can understand why you pick Whitaker, I don't see why you are so confident that Whitaker would win. Are you saying you have no doubts that Whitaker wins? Benny Leonard too, even with the limited film we have of him?

Just wondering; no offense, by any means.

[elmersalsa]

Where is the great Eusebio Pedroza?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Where is the great Eusebio Pedroza?

- #112

More like where are Joe Jeannette and Jimmy Barry? Joe has a superior record to peers listed over him, JJohnson and Harry Wills. Little Tiger Barry has arguably the greatest undefeated record in the history of the boxing, 59-0-10, 39 KO.

[asero]

i would have to put jim barry and jeannette in the next 10...

[Idisagree]

Some people really like to underrate Calzague. Calzague took on Lacy when most people tought that Lacy was a monster. Lacy look like a lost boy on that fight. He took on Kessler and dominated him with no problems and Kessler is a solid fighter. He had just one close fight and that was against Hopkins and to say that Hopkins was old and washup is non-sense. With all know what he did to Pavlick right after that. Calzague unified all the ABC belts (WBO, IBF, WBA, and WBC). Can you say Mayweather did that at any weight class? I don’t think so. In my book Calzague deserves a higher place than Mayweather.

[I Feel Fine]

Some people really like to underrate Calzague. Calzague took on Lacy when most people tought that Lacy was a monster. Lacy look like a lost boy on that fight. He took on Kessler and dominated him with no problems and Kessler is a solid fighter. He had just one close fight and that was against Hopkins and to say that Hopkins was old and washup is non-sense. With all know what he did to Pavlick right after that. Calzague unified all the ABC belts (WBO, IBF, WBA, and WBC). Can you say Mayweather did that at any weight class? I don’t think so. In my book Calzague deserves a higher place than Mayweather.

There is a difference between being washed up and being past your best. Hopkins was seven years older than Calzaghe and seven years past his best. If they were the same age Hopkins probably wins a close decision.

I guess you could argue for Calzaghe being rated with Mayweather, not sure about higher.

[observer1]

Sorry Mayweather is leagues above Calzaghe.

The only question marks on Mayweather is at WW. He proved himself at 130 and 135.

Whereas Joe's entire career is a massive Question Mark like this >>>> ?

I mean come on ffs, His best win is Lacy? i mean gtfo

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

There is a difference between being washed up and being past your best. Hopkins was seven years older than Calzaghe and seven years past his best. If they were the same age Hopkins probably wins a close decision.

- Joe's biscuits clearly past their primes. Probably the most brittle set of mitts known to man and took the power option off the table for him

Mr. Popkins is always gonna be 7 yrs older, so what are you really complaining about?

Last I checked he lost early in his career before losing to a young up and comer HOFer who beat him with one hand tied behind his back in his first title challenge, then knocked down and almost out in his 2nd title challenge that he was gifted with a draw, and then got a most fortunate and biased home stoppage in the rematch, and that just the start. Sounds like a very beatable fighter to me.

If Taylor can beat him, Super Joe can beat him too. One can complain about Joe's soft title defenses, but notice that it ain't like the division was full of young hungry prime talent like Mr. Larry's 19 successful soft title defense era everyone touts. Joe beat the current #1 ranked LH/supmid Ring ranked contenders and a couple of more contenders still highly ranked by Ring.

Let's remember, 7 yrs ago Mr. Popkins ducked Joe and Roy and was forced to pay a $2 mil judgment to Dibella for breaking contract, so the case you make for Mr. Popkins doesn't hold water in reality.

Maybe Joe ain't your cup of tea which is fine, but there's something terribly wrong with 99% of the criticism of his career, but that's typical boxing fans for you. They should just admit they don't like him and be done with it rather than make up porkies and looking foolish.

[I Feel Fine]

What do Hopkins' other losses have to do with the fact that Calzaghe barely beat a 43 year old Hopkins? His loss to Jones is quite irrelevant, Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten a prime Jones. Some would say Mercado was gifted the draw, in a fight that took place in his home country of Ecuador, and only an idiot would suggest that Hopkins got a gift against Mercado in the rematch; he tore Mercado apart in that fight, it could have been stopped earlier than it was. You must be new to Hopkins' career.
It is of course assinine to suggest that Hopkins in his 30s ducked WBO paper champ Calzaghe, who had accomplished practically nothing of significance in his career to that point, but at 43 took him on after his biggest win over Kessler. Hopkins wanted more money, big surprise; that is not ducking.
If Calzaghe at 43 had to fight a 36 year old Hopkins, Calzaghe would have taken a nice holiday in a hospital room for a few days, if not more.

[Collins2000]

What do Hopkins' other losses have to do with the fact that Calzaghe barely beat a 43 year old Hopkins? His loss to Jones is quite irrelevant, Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten a prime Jones. Some would say Mercado was gifted the draw, in a fight that took place in his home country of Ecuador, and only an idiot would suggest that Hopkins got a gift against Mercado in the rematch; he tore Mercado apart in that fight, it could have been stopped earlier than it was. You must be new to Hopkins' career.It is of course assinine to suggest that Hopkins in his 30s ducked WBO paper champ Calzaghe, who had accomplished practically nothing of significance in his career to that point, but at 43 took him on after his biggest win over Kessler. Hopkins wanted more money, big surprise; that is not ducking.
If Calzaghe at 43 had to fight a 36 year old Hopkins, Calzaghe would have taken a nice holiday in a hospital room for a few days, if not more.

[Idisagree]

Sorry Mayweather is leagues above Calzaghe.

The only question marks on Mayweather is at WW. He proved himself at 130 and 135.

Whereas Joe's entire career is a massive Question Mark like this >>>> ?

I mean come on ffs, His best win is Lacy? i mean gtfo

His best win was agianst Lacy? You must be joking. Are you saying that Lacy was/is better than Hopkins? even a past his prime Hopkins.
Compare the fighters: Mayweather:
Genaro Hernandez, Manfready, Corrales, JL Castillo, Gatti, Judah, DLH, and Hatton.
Hernadez solid fighter but nothing great and the same can be said for Manfready, Gatti, and Castillo. DLH was clearly well past his best and Judah is a nut case nothing extraordinary. Who is Mayweather best win? Hatton?

Calzague:
Eubank, Sheika, Lacy, Bika, Kessler, Hopkins and Jones jr.
Eubank was past his best, Sheika, Lacy, and Bika decent wins but nothing extraordinary comparable to wins over Manfready, Corrales, and Castillo. Hopkins win was his best win even if Hopkins was past his best. Still Hopkins was able to completely dominate Pavlik the reigning champ at 160 after his loss to Calzague and he was coming of big wins over Tarver and Wright. So please stop the excuses. Jones Jr, win was comparable to DLH win. But the fact remains that Calzague completely dominated Jones as opposed to Mayweather who almost lost to a well past his best DLH. Kessler win can be compare to Hatton win.
So how is Mayweather leagues above Calzaghe? The fact remains that Calzague unified all the titles at his weight class something that Mayweather never did.
The only question marks on Mayweather is at WW. (really? How about at 140 or 154?) did he prove himself at those weight classes? Did Mayweather unified all the titles at 130 or 135?
If Joe’s entire career is a massive question mark so is Mayweather?
Please support your arguments with facts.
I believe they should not be ranked too far apart.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

What do Hopkins' other losses have to do with the fact that Calzaghe barely beat a 43 year old Hopkins? His loss to Jones is quite irrelevant, Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten a prime Jones. Some would say Mercado was gifted the draw, in a fight that took place in his home country of Ecuador, and only an idiot would suggest that Hopkins got a gift against Mercado in the rematch; he tore Mercado apart in that fight, it could have been stopped earlier than it was. You must be new to Hopkins' career.
It is of course assinine to suggest that Hopkins in his 30s ducked WBO paper champ Calzaghe, who had accomplished practically nothing of significance in his career to that point

- Lordy, one scarely knows where to start with such fanciful nonsense.

Working backwards, it's a fact, jackie, Mr. Popkins was sued and paid a judgement to Dibella for backing out a contract that included fights against Joe and Roy. I don't care if you call it ducking, quacking, weedwhacking, or desperate for the peanuts he got to chase Hakkar's scalded cat around the ring, it's officially a fact, jackie.

I've seen both Mercado fights. He beat Mr. Popkins first time, knocked him silly he did. Foolish boy, even the jackbooted brown shirted announcers finally came around to admit they had made a mistake in accusing Mercado of not heeding the ref's call to release Mr. Popkins when it was Popkins who was holding and holding like his life depended on it and not releasing. This after Mercado's best round where he was starting to time Mr. Popkins and hurt him. A complete bogus stoppage where the ref couldn't even properly rule on his mistake. If he thought Mercado was disobeying his order, DQ would have been the proper ruling, not a TKO. What a typical American dolt. Had he been German you would skewer him.

You also got it wrong on Roy. We don't know as who would win prime to prime, Roy or Joe. You claiming Roy wins means as much as me claiming Joe wins. Though I would favor Roy, Griffin beat Roy in his prime, and Joe better than Griffin, see how that goes junior?

Finally, Joe came to Mr. Popkins' back yard with Mr. Popkins' officials and not only beat him with everything lined up in Mr. Popkins' favor, but he made him quit like a dog in front of his boys. Credit for the KD, but Mr. Popkins ran to the other side of the ring when Joe got up.

Executioner? More like a soft lad looking for Oscar's skirt. Thank goodness for his family's sake he redeems himself against Pavlik. Best retire before the soft lad returns though.

[bjermaine]

The fact remains that Calzague unified all the titles at his weight class something that Mayweather never did.

actually joe won all the titles at 168 but he didn't ever unify them all at the same time. the ibf stripped him when he fought manfredo. the wbo let him keep his title because manfredo was on par with the bums joe fought his whole wbo super middle reign.

joe was "the ring" champ at 168 & 175, while floyd was ring champ at 135 & 147. floyd would have been ring champ at 130 but the ring didn't name their champs again until 2002.

[bjermaine]

You also got it wrong on Roy. We don't know as who would win prime to prime, Roy or Joe. You claiming Roy wins means as much as me claiming Joe wins. Though I would favor Roy, Griffin beat Roy in his prime, and Joe better than Griffin, see how that goes junior?

Finally, Joe came to Mr. Popkins' back yard with Mr. Popkins' officials and not only beat him with everything lined up in Mr. Popkins' favor, but he made him quit like a dog in front of his boys. Credit for the KD, but Mr. Popkins ran to the other side of the ring when Joe got up.

Executioner? More like a soft lad looking for Oscar's skirt. Thank goodness for his family's sake he redeems himself against Pavlik. Best retire before the soft lad returns though.

yes, great point. if i recall griffin "beat" a prime jones with his face down on the canvas being counted out. if this is the case then yes, calzaghe could have beat a prime jones. i don't know if you saw the griffin rematch? would have loved to seen calzaghe in the ring with jones that night but joe was busy fighting branko sobot around that time.

i just left your quotes up about hopkins because they are embarrassing.

[I Feel Fine]

Yeah, Calzaghe was better than Griffin, and Roy lost to Griffin. And Jones beat Hopkins, who was better than Calzaghe, therefore Jones beats Calzaghe... does that work?

Seriously speaking, your comment about Griffin is really too easy, you're basically throwing me soft balls with that kind of remark. I am sure that you could do a tad better than that. Forgetting the well known fact that Roy lost by DQ after having Griffin down and on his way out, and then splattered him in the rematch in one round, those fights have no relevance to how Roy would do with Calzaghe. Roy was a better fighter than Calzaghe. He was more gifted, faster, he hit harder, he was harder to hit, and he had the better overall career, up until his rather epic downfall. Calzaghe caught him when he had been finished as a fighter for years, and did not beat him as handily as Glen Johnson did. Glen won every round, didn't get knocked down, and had Roy out for several minutes. Johnson would not have beaten a prime Roy either.

Hopkins-Mercado I was a pretty close fight. A draw probably wasn't all that bad a decision. But the idea that Hopkins got a gift in Ecuador is pretty fancy footwork there, and I think many would say that Hopkins deserved the decision. Mercado had his best round in the last round of the rematch? He must have landed one good jab or something, because that was the most he ever really did against Hopkins the second time around. Hopkins raped him. The referee's strange, confused stoppage could have occurred a round or two earlier under more conventional circumstances, and few would have complained. It was an awkward way to stop a fight that deserved to be stopped in the first place. I guess when watching round 13 of Robinson-LaMotta VI your first impression is that the ref saved Robinson and that LaMotta had Ray right where he wanted him, eh? Reminds me of Liston's comment about the Wepner fight "Is he the bravest guy you ever saw?" "No, his manager is." Broughton is a real brave guy when it comes to watching fighters get their heads caved in by their opponent...

You cannot explain away the career of every fighter that you dislike by calling all of his victories gifts and attributing them all too supposedly crooked refs and judges. Hopkins has his own losses that he could, and would, call the result of bad scoring on the part of the officials. Regardless, few if any would call his Mercado fights gifts for Hopkins, certainly not the rematch which Hopkins dominated. And you of course forget that Calzaghe had his controversies too, after all; many thought he lost the Reid fight.

Hopkins was still good when Calzaghe fought him, but he was years past his best. This is rather evident. Archie Moore in one of his last fights had a draw with Pastrano. When I hear that, my impression is not "wow, Pastrano got a draw with Archie Moore" my impression is "Ha, if Archie had been in his prime, Pastrano would have been on his back." When I watch Calzaghe beat Hopkins by a close, somewhat controversial split decision with a seven year age advantage my impression is that If they had been the same age that Hopkins wins a close decision. I think this is a rather logical conclusion, which is likely why you fail to comprehend it.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I said just a few posts ago that I think that it can be argued that Calzaghe can be ranked with Mayweather, despite the fact that I am a Mayweather fan. Not sure how this makes me a Calzaghe hater. Try again. And it must take quite a bit of schizophrenia on Hopkins' part to have been too afraid to have fought WBO paper belt holder Calzaghe, with only a win over a shot Eubank and a controversial decision over Reid to his credit, but for Hopkins then at 43 to have been the one to have called out and faced undisputed 168 pound champ Calzaghe, coming off career defining wins over Lacy and Kessler. I am sure it had nothing to do with money.

If you need any more assistance clearing up your faulty logical conclusions, I am here. And your comment about Germany/America perhaps reflects a nationalist bias on your part. I said nothing about nationality.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Yeah, Calzaghe was better than Griffin, and Roy lost to Griffin. And Jones beat Hopkins, who was better than Calzaghe, therefore Jones beats Calzaghe... does that work?

Seriously speaking

- Hard to get serious with a casual fan as yourself making fundamental factual misstatements that you were busted on.

I said that I would favor Jones prime to prime, but Calzaghe is better than the Griffin who beat Roy no matter what the circumstances were. Roy had a mental meltdown.

Prime who beats who is unprovable unless they entered the ring then. Ali beats Leon 100 out of 100, but that ain't how it turned out.

No need for me to apologize for noting the weaknesses in Mr. Popkins' career either. Guy got massively overrated due to beating two HOF welts after being lost in the wilderness for years. Also lost to every great prime middle. Just sayin'......

[I Feel Fine]

- Hard to get serious with a casual fan as yourself making fundamental factual misstatements that you were busted on.

I said that I would favor Jones prime to prime, but Calzaghe is better than the Griffin who beat Roy no matter what the circumstances were. Roy had a mental meltdown.

Prime who beats who is unprovable unless they entered the ring then. Ali beats Leon 100 out of 100, but that ain't how it turned out.

No need for me to apologize for noting the weaknesses in Mr. Popkins' career either. Guy got massively overrated due to beating two HOF welts after being lost in the wilderness for years. Also lost to every great prime middle. Just sayin'......

Casual fan? Really? I suppose that is why you dodge most of my responses. Given up on the Mercado rematch, have you? I can't blame you. You may as well have argued that Steve Frank was robbed against Hopkins. You will have to try a little harder than that.
Ali was not in his prime when he lost to Spinks, so that was a dumb statement. As is your continued citing of Griffin. But, again, thanks for the soft balls. You make it too easy.
Hopkins' career is based on a lot more than wins over Welterweights. That is an anachronistic response that you are carrying over from 2004, which was short sighted then and which is simply quite delusional at this stage in his career. But you have a clear bias against Hopkins. Casual fans tend to dislike his style, but he was nevertheless one of the best fighters of the last 20 years, and he showed at 43 to be Calzaghe's better, were they to be matched up prime for prime. Calzaghe is at the bottom of this trio, his wins are merely the product of his being the youngest of the three. The people who give them credence are the same casual fans who give credence to Marciano's win over Louis; that would be you.
Better luck next time, my friend. You indeed are no granberry; he fabricated and distorted at a much more dizzying pace than you seem able to. Keep working at it.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Given up on the Mercado rematch, have you?

- Already pointed out it was an illicitly or incompetently officiated fight.

Should've been ruled a DQ by the ref, and then a protest filed which would've indicated a change to ND since the ref was either dumber than the rock he had banging around between his ears or he was in the bag.

Rudy Battle was his name and he's been busted.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey GI....your favorite lightweight would be staring at the ceiling after running into my favorite lightweight who would pursue him and knock the fancy right out of his ring shorts. Don't get me wrong I like Sweet Pea a lot, but if he and Hands of Stone would have met at their primes in the lightweight divsion, he would find himself knocked off of his world famous balance.

I place Duran in the same class as Ali & Robinson --- three fighters who will never live up to the hype, in spite of their own greatness. Duran is the most over-rated of all the truly great 135lbers. He loses to Whitaker, & to Leonard, too, for that matter.

Well of course....uh except for when Leonard and Duran met at their best (first time around) Duran did beat SRL.

And Sweet Pea would make it through to the bell, so you can call that a win if you want. But no one could reasonably give him the nod based due to far too much back peddling. Duran had enough speed of his own to keep Sweet Pea honest. And Pernell can't win an honest fight with Roberto LW vs LW prime. Chavez? Yes! Duran? Nyet.

Unless the judges just want to give it away on style......I'm afraid Whitaker is the more appropriate Ali clone in that particular matchup.

[I Feel Fine]

Given up on the Mercado rematch, have you?

- Already pointed out it was an illicitly or incompetently officiated fight.

Should've been ruled a DQ by the ref, and then a protest filed which would've indicated a change to ND since the ref was either dumber than the rock he had banging around between his ears or he was in the bag.

Rudy Battle was his name and he's been busted.

Sure, sure. Crooked refs, they do it every time. LaMotta really had Ray going.

Well of course....uh except for when Leonard and Duran met at their best (first time around) Duran did beat SRL.

And Sweet Pea would make it through to the bell, so you can call that a win if you want. But no one could reasonably give him the nod based due to far too much back peddling. Duran had enough speed of his own to keep Sweet Pea honest. And Pernell can't win an honest fight with Roberto LW vs LW prime. Chavez? Yes! Duran? Nyet.

Unless the judges just want to give it away on style......I'm afraid Whitaker is the more appropriate Ali clone in that particular matchup.

Whitaker never got any real gifts. Maybe a nod in a close fight during his Welterweight reign, but nothing major. Rather, he was used to getting robbed in important fights; Ramirez I, Chavez. The loss to Oscar should have been at least a draw. Many, perhaps most, had Whitaker winning that one, and he was past his prime.
I would make Duran the slight favorite, but it has nothing to do with "backpeddaling." Only shallow fans score fights on that basis. Leonard "backpeddaled" in the third fight with Duran, and he won almost every round. This isn't sumo wrestling, you win fights by scoring punches, not by pushing your opponent back. I favor Duran to win on punching.

[greenmonkey]

I so tired of hearing about fighters like Willie Pep and Sandy Sadler, nether one would have lasted 3 rounds with Salvador Sanchez..bottom line