BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:Excellent post, Brocky. That is good enough to appear in any of the boxing magazines I have read. Seriously, mate, it is a very good read. You are the only person on here, myself included, who I believe could make a career out of sports journalism.

Decagon wrote:Well, when looking at a fighter's heart, you have to judge how well it helps him win fights, not lose with dignity. Holding on for dear life against Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis doesn't mean shit if you can't win the fight. Look at the heart Rocky Marciano had in the first Walcott fight and the second Charles fight. He held on to win after getting behind, and after having his nose split in two.

silkov wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:

Ezzard wrote:The problem with this thread isn't that Tyson didn't amass a decent record. It's to do with the usual talk about "he could have been the best ever". Tyson's probelms have been documented way back. The ridiculous fist fight with Mitch Green being a great example. Tyson was unhinged. This gave him his ferocity and his terrifying ring presence. It made him a top fighter but it also made him psychologically vulnerable to someone who could step back and see him as a man and not some unbeatable mythical monster.

Tyson was not messed up by King and Givens. They didn't help but he was always messed up as the incident with Green (plus countless others) proves. Tyson was built up so much in the public's collective imagination (just as Liston was) that it's impossible to separate the man in the ring from the perception of him as person.

Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Holmes, etc... all got dropped and got up to win in fights. They all overcame tough fights to win. Mike couldn't do this. Even if he'd have not gone to prison, trained like a maniac 25 hours a day and lived like a monk he'd still have not had 30 defences because he was mentally fragile. Boxing is a lot more than who punches hardest and fastest.

Great post Ezzard.

The "If Cus had lived" theory has never quite sat right with me either. Tyson was always a person with 'mental & emotional issues' before, after and DURING his time under the protective wing of his mentor Cus.

Over the years the more I have thought about it the more I have come to believe the if Cus had lived another 10/20 years this would have made little difference to Tysons career in the long run.

And with respect D'amato hardly made Patterson into the greatest of champions... I think much of his influence on his fighters was a negative one, making his fighters too introspective and aware of their own fears and waeknesses...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:silkov



tyson as a 'champion' was one of the most dominant and best champions ever. he did every thing a champion should do during his reign


we first must look at tysons prime and realize he was the clear # 1 man of the late 80s. while the early 80s belong to holmes, tyson was the ruler of the late 80s.


Mike tyson like joe louis was one the most dominant champs ever! he literally wiped out very good fighters making them look lime bums. tyson asbolutley walked through the best of contender with relative ease. domination in a fight is something to be taken into note.

tyson


- he dominated the 80s in a more devastating fashion than larry holmes did. up until tyson lost the title to douglas, tyson was blowing away the best of fighters and didnt struggle in his title defenses.


tyson was so good that announcers and papers made a big deal when tyson was breifly stunned by a good punch( tucker 1st , bruno 1st, bonecrusher 12th). tyson was considered so indestructable that the thought of landing one good punch on him and stunning him was incredible let alone him being knocked down or out.




tyson did something no one had done since the 70s, he officially(even though there was an official linear champ) unified the titles. the 80s heavyweight division was filled with far too many alpha champs. it was getting ridiculous. holmes was linear champ, but holmes never did fight the other alpha champs and ultimately unify so theres 1 sanctioned champion. tyson however did unify and he did so in a short amount of time. tyson right away unified all 3 belts all on his own in a short amount of time and then defended until he was finally given the oppertunity to fight the 'linear' champ and when tyson beat spinx, there was now 1 legitamite heavyweight champion. duirng holmes reign, there was never just one champ like during tysons reign. think about this, right now we got 4 champions and everyones dieing for someone to unify it. now imagine if someone comes along and wins it, then unifies all the belts in one year alone? hard to imagine that happening so fast isnt it? well thats what happened with tyson. rather than load his defenses with bums after he beat berbick, he immediately went out and unified the division. in essence, tyson cleaned up the mess and restored the heavyweight division in the late 80s. NO MORE ALHPA CHAMPS FOR YEARS BECAUSE OF TYSON. HE FNALLY BROUGHT THE LINEAGE OFFICIALLY BACK.


sorry im not trying to bash holmes, it wasnt all his fault, im just trying to make a case how big of a deal it meant for mike to unify



tyson as champion followed by all the rules a champion is supposed to do. tyson OFFICIALLY CLEANED OUT THE DIVISION IN THE 80S AS MUCH AS ANY HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP EVER DID IN HIS REIGN.


- all of tysons title defenses were top contenders. they were all world class fighters. even larry holmes filled up his title defenses with a lot of undeserving journeyman. however tyson never did that. he not only defended it frequentley, but fought the best heavyweights of the late mid-late 80s. out of tysons 9 defenses, 7 were alpha champs so tyson basically wiped out all the alpha champs. in comparison, holmes beat only 5 alhpa champs and he had a total of 20 title defenses. so as u see, tyson was fighting the most elite fighters out there


- tyson not only beat the top contenders and alpha champs, he DOMINATED THEM.

pinklon thomas
tony tubbs
bonecrusher smith
trevor berbick
tony tucker


all these guys were good to very good heavyweights who were alpha champs and when they fought tyson, they were easily dismantled in 2 rounds. all these guys were never outclassed that badly or beaten that badly before they fought tyson. tyson however changed things. tyson was so feared that potential top contenders didnt want to fight him.

imagine what tim witherspoon or greg page must think seeing tyson flatten thomas and tubbs in easy fashion. tubbs and thomas were both fighters who beat witherspoon and page.


some of these top world class fighters like tony tubbs, larry holmes, pinklon thomas, tony tubbs tony tucker, etc all these guys were experienced former/current champions that HAD NEVER BEEN KNOCKED OUT BEFORE. well tyson did it easily.

- tony tubbs when well past his prime gave riddick bowe a near even fight.

- tubbs and thomas both great chins, were made to look like nothing when they fought mike and suffered brutal KOs

- holmes only once in his career would be knocked out and that was by mike tyson in brutal fashion making anyone wonder if even the prime holmes could deal with iron mike.

holmes went on to become a top contender in the early 90s and 5 years after he fought tyson he went 12 close rounds with a prime holyfield. still no one except tyson ever stopped LET ALONE knock out holmes.



and the big champions are defined by there biggest fights right?

well tysons biggest fight in his prime was michael spinx fight who IMO is a top 35 heavyweight of all time. the first man to beat larry holmes. the fight was hugely ballyhooed and spinx was a hall of famer great fighter......

well in tysons most importan fight, he pulled a joe louis-max schmeling II and annihlated spinx in one devastating round. that was mikes peak fight. mikes that night had a chance against anyone in history. great champions preform there best in the biggest fight, and in his biggest fight in his prime mike won in brutal fashion.



so mike


- earned his title shot by blasting out some of the top 10 ranked contenders

- cleaned out the division fighting only best top contenders/ champs

- mike immediatley unified the title cleaning up a huge mess and officially bringing back the one linear champ

- dominated these very good heavyweights and had no controversial fights and mike did not duck anyone

- defended his title on a consistent basis

i mean all the stuff a champion should do, mike did in his 80s title reign which would have been perfect had it not been for the douglas loss.






perhaps 2nd to louis, tyson was the greatest heavyweight puncher of all time. he had incredible handspeed, devastating combinations which he mixed up, he had an incredible body attack, he had incredible two fisted KO power and incredible snap on his punches. mike had special power, power only a few champions had. joe louis had it. the power im talking about is when mike hit you, guys did funny things. they did delayed reactions before falling like berbick, tubbs. thats special power. joe louis used to make guys do the same.


tyson skillwise ranks amonst the best


he was one of the greatest punchers ever, one of the best defenses in heavyweight history, incredible speed, very solid boxing skills, good jab, fantastic counterpuncher, incredible body attack, very unpredictable, very good chin, proven stamina, etc. he even had a wonderful build had 5'11 218lb of muscle.

what other heavyweight u know was one of the greatest punchers who ever lived and one of the best defenses who ever lived.


tyson proved he could go the 12 round distance and outpoint very skilled heavyweights like tony tucker whom was a very good big man and tyson won a one sided decision. tyson showed he could not only beat u by devastating knockouts, but by outboxing u. people give lots of credit to liston for outpointing a highly skilled boxer like machen over 12 rounds, but why not give tyson credit for winning a easy 12 round decision over a very good fighter like tucker?


chin? well tyson was never even badly hurt until the douglas fight despite facing some big punchers. it took douglas 10 rounds of damaging blows to finally put tyson down for the count. and how bout huge puncher razor ruddock who landed flush on tyson in there 12 rounder and tyson just stood there. even again frank bruno, bruno tagged him good in the 1st round and bruno by some is considered one of the hardest hitting heavies in terms of force of all time.



i think the fact is, tysons get penalised mostly from what happened post prison but by that time he was well past his prime and it should not be held that much against him.


great champions bounce back from losses right? well after the loss to douglas, tyson scored two victories over # 1 razor ruddock and was responding beatifully and was on the upward trail again to a shot vs holyfield but of course the rape incident would have happened. but tyson vs holyfield in 1991 had it not been for the rape would have eventually happened so we never know whether tyson would have responded back or not. and tyson wasnt even at his best anymore by then, was without rooney.


and what about tyson well behind on points nearly coming back to KO douglas in the 8th? in fact it was a very skecthy count and a case could be made tyson would have won right there. if tyson had won right there, everyone would have been talking about how much heart tyson had coming back like he did. but shouldnt that knockdown and almost near knockout be considered a good mark on tysons record for nearly coming back in the heat of adversity like he did?


i believe tyson should be in the top 10,

unlike some other heavy champs, tyson proved himself by far the best heavyweight of his era and dominated it for a 4 year stretch and in those 4 years wiped out all the best fighters in easy fashion. he may have not beat the best quality fighters but he beat a very long line of very good depth even in the biggest fight of his career vs a top 30 heavyweight of all time, he knocked spinx out in 1.


i believe tysons post prison career and 80s title reign matches alot of title reigns in heavyweight history. it was a great reign


and if u look at tysons whole career,

u will find he beat very good competition. though it lacks all time great heavies( which was not his fault because he didnt have a frazier type fighter in late 80s), he did beat a good heavyeight champ in spinx and mike beat a very good quality of depth


tony tucker
pinklon thomas
tony tubbs
carl williams
trevor berbick
bonecrusher smith
razor ruddock
marvis frazier
tyrell biggs
old larry holmes
frank bruno
Michael Spinx
Andrew Golota
Francois Botha
Alonzo Ratliff


thats some very good depth of contenders right there


Tyson also beat some good B level guys like


jesse fergusson
jose ribalta
James Tillis
Mitch Blood Green
Lou Savarese
Bruce Seldon
Brian Neilson




I still think mike would have knocked out holy had they fought in when both were in there prime say late 80s, but we will never know cause the fight didnt happen. u can say mike didnt fight holy cause he lost his title to a 2nd rate buster douglas who holy beat. but just remember, mike never got to rematch buster or fight holy in the early 90s and holy in what was considered his prime lost more than once and struggled far more against 2nd rate heavies and was much less dominating in his reign. i also might add, buster was a much different fight vs mike than when buster fought holy.




no one in heavyweight history had the combination of power, speed, defense mike tyson had. no one did.


and those that rank liston in the top 10 but not tyson because tyson didn have heart or stamina are fooling themselves because tyson showed just as much stamina as liston did, and just as much heart. difference is, mike was even more skilled and powerful than liston.

RazorKO wrote:I believe people on this board judge Tyson's ability in the ring on soley what he does outside. And Ive even seen some comments here saying Tyson had no stamina! In his prime he went 12 comfortable rounds with Tucker and went 10 with Tillis, Green and Ribalta knocking him out in the last round. Tyson went also went 12 with Ruddock and even in the 1st Holyfield fight he didnt look tired. The only fight Ive ever seen Tyson tired was in the Mcbride fight......but we all know he was past his prime (I hope because Ive seen posters use the Mcbride and Williams fighst to further belittle Tyson's accomplishments).

We are talking about Tyson the fighter, not the Tyson the man.