BoxRec

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:21

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:19

Pyror never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

Of course he may have been dodged anyway but the weight class gave them a great excuse.

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:19Pryor never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 10:34

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 10:22

Whose intentions?

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:19

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:16

This Jr and super nonsense kept great fights from happening such as Duran-Pryor or SRL-Pryor. If you're a healthy 142 and lose to a guy 147, I frankly don't think size was the issue, more like an excuse.

Pyror never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:23

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 10:34

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

His intentions are not good. His intentions would ruin the sport, and would lose even more fans. The sport is barely hanging onto it's fan base as it is.

Adding another division in or around Heavyweight is a slap in the face to every great Heavyweight or every fan of the sport there's ever been.

EO is not a fan of the sport. If he were he would know this.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:30

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:23

His intentions are not good. His intentions would ruin the sport, and would lose even more fans. The sport is barely hanging onto it's fan base as it is.

Adding another division in or around Heavyweight is a slap in the face to every great Heavyweight or every fan of the sport there's ever been.

EO is not a fan of the sport. If he were he would know this.

There are very few things I feel Very Strongly about. What I put in bold is one of them.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 14:12

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:30

There are very few things I feel Very Strongly about. What I put in bold is one of them.

I would actually get fighting mad about it.

If I were actually around people trying to make it an official rule of Boxing that we'd add a Super Cruiserweight or Super Heavyweight division to the sport, we'd come to blows.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:23

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 10:34

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

His intentions are not good. His intentions would ruin the sport, and would lose even more fans. The sport is barely hanging onto it's fan base as it is.

Adding another division in or around Heavyweight is a slap in the face to every great Heavyweight or every fan of the sport there's ever been.

EO is not a fan of the sport. If he were he would know this.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:35

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 12:19Pryor never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

Pryor avoided a fight against Leonard in the amateurs by dropping down a weight division in order to improve his chances of qualifying for the Olympics.

Leonard’s team also submitted an offer to Pryor’s handers when both men were pros, which was accepted, but the fight was called off after Ray injured his eye and briefly retired.

Leonard was so “scared” of Pryor that he used him as a sparring partner for three years. And as I previously mentioned, Ray’s handers even offered Aaron the fight.

So now you know the real-world facts about the situation, can you please explain the reason why you feel Leonard avoided Pryor like the plague?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:25 Hell go to a Pawn Shop in Las Vegas, you're likely to see one for sale

If I have a problem with EO it's because he only ever considers the fact that only he could be right, and there's no other possibility, when he's actually wrong on a regular basis.

Sometimes painfully wrong.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:38 There are oodles and oodles of cool Boxing stories.

Here lately I've been trying to get more into collecting Boxing books. Particularly when the subject is old timers where most of their fights aren't filmed.

The Hall of Fame book is awesome too. Lengthy profiles on everybody in the Hall of Fame, and just lots of cool facts and sh*t to learn.

Some of the stories about guys in the distant past are absolutely unbelievable.

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:53

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:38 There are oodles and oodles of cool Boxing stories.

Here lately I've been trying to get more into collecting Boxing books. Particularly when the subject is old timers where most of their fights aren't filmed.

The Hall of Fame book is awesome too. Lengthy profiles on everybody in the Hall of Fame, and just lots of cool facts and sh*t to learn.

Some of the stories about guys in the distant past are absolutely unbelievable.

Boxing never lack characters that is for sure.

Do remember reading up on the old heavyweights from Sullivan to Tunney. All of them had character and well, everyone sticks out in his own way. Large then life. A bunch of crazies and nutjobs then again fighters are what they are.

F*cking hell, light heavyweight got created sort for making Ruby Robert a champion again. Sort of. Im a bite fuzzy about the legend or story behind it. But you know guys who where to small for heavyweight and middleweights where to small for them. Reasonable in making a sport of fist fighting or what you call it.

Then again need to dive into the lore and history of the welters. Bunch of fu*king loonies all of them more or less, everyone is beyond batsh*t crazy. From what I can get from those current and past back to the 60s.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:55

Paci wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 15:53

Boxing never lack characters that is for sure.

Do remember reading up on the old heavyweights from Sullivan to Tunney. All of them had character and well, everyone sticks out in his own way. Large then life. A bunch of crazies and nutjobs then again fighters are what they are.

F*cking hell, light heavyweight got created sort for making Ruby Robert a champion again. Sort of. Im a bite fuzzy about the legend or story behind it. But you know guys who where to small for heavyweight and middleweights where to small for them. Reasonable in making a sport of fist fighting or what you call it.

Then again need to dive into the lore and history of the welters. Bunch of fu*king loonies all of them more or less, everyone is beyond batsh*t crazy. From what I can get from those current and past back to the 60s.

I believe the Light Heavyweight division was created by a fighter named Jack Root's manager or promoter. He was too big for Middleweights and too small for Heavyweights they felt so they created a weight class for him to be Champion of.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 09:08

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 08:51Our main point (that you and some others) keep ignoring comes down to this:

The weight advantage only goes so far. At a certain point it's not an advantage at a certain point.
i.e. A guy weighing 220 does have a huge edge against someone weighing 170. A guy weighing 270 does not have the that edge against someone weighing 220.

This is what some people get, or don't want to get.

You're ignoring the content of my posts, which I've conveyed multiple times in this thread (even in the post immediately preceding yours):

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 04:53No one is claiming that it’s impossible for undersized fighters to be effective against much bigger foes.

What people are instead arguing, such as myself, is that a good big man nearly always beats a good little man.

We’ve both expressed the same sentiments many times: "Size matters, but it’s not the be-all-and-end-all."

Exceptions occur, but they’re known as "exceptions" for a reason (i.e. rare instances that defy the frequently occurring most common general rule).

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 08:51At a certain point it's not an advantage at a certain point.
i.e. A guy weighing 220 does have a huge edge against someone weighing 170. A guy weighing 270 does not have the that edge against someone weighing 220.

This is what some people get, or don't want to get.

It depends on the body composition and fitness levels of the fighters in the fictional scenario you’ve described.

A physically athletic highly-skilled fighter (like Tyson Fury weighing 273lbs) is always going to beat any 220lbs fighter possessing similar skills and fitness levels, because his sheer size would become the main differential.

Being bigger is rarely a handicap in the heavyweight division. Whether you like it or not,

Tyson Fury beats Rocky Marciano 24/7 365, because he’s so much larger (i.e. almost a foot taller, nearly 100lbs heavier and also possessing a longer reach). SIZE MATTERS... NOSTALGIA DOESN'T!

Most typical 245lbs world-rated heavyweights beats most typical 200lbs world-rated cruiserweights, because SIZE MATTERS.

Of course, if the reason for a fighter weighing 50lbs more than his 220lbs foe, was entirely due to carrying excess fat, then the “larger” man would clearly be at a disadvantage, but this is an unrealistic scenario (unless you're Andy Ruiz Jr. that is).

That being said, the real-world stats from the last decade prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it’s extremely rare for any fighter weighing less than 225lbs to achieve any sort of success at world-level competing as a heavyweight.

There's an obvious reason for those stats being what they are. And it cannot be ignored.

Put it this way, Nikolay Valuev’s skill levels were primitive. He was also fairly slow. But he compensated for his lack of pugilistic fighting ability, by making the most out of his enormous size advantage, which resulted in him being a massive overachiever.

Any fighter weighing 220lbs that possessed Valuev’s lack of skills, experience, speed etc. would have become a journeyman suffering lots of KO losses, but Nikolay was somehow able to become a world champion.

If I tried to show empathy for your argument, it would be entirely reasonable to argue that (in extreme cases) morbidly obese or excessively muscled fighters, weighing 300lbs or more, would probably be at a disadvantage against most heavyweights weighing 245lbs or so.

For instance: if Tyson Fury was the same size/weight as Eddie Hall or Hafthor Bjornsson (who will both be making their highly lucrative boxing debuts next year), then he’d get battered by every single world-rated 245lbs heavyweight fighter, because he’d be far too slow and clumsy.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 16:34 However, in your way of thinking, the 7'2 is better. He's not. He doesn't do anything better.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 18:11

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 16:34 However, in your way of thinking, the 7'2 is better. He's not. He doesn't do anything better.

That’s not what I’m claiming.

My posts are intentionally long, because I provide multiple examples of scenarios to ensure I’ve conveyed my beliefs in a crystal clear manner.

Two fighters, both with the same amount of talent and athleticism, the bigger guy usually wins.

The stats I’ve already supplied clearly supports this theory, which many experienced boxers and pundits agree with (and I’ve already quoted some).

There’s a reason why people intentionally refrain from directly commenting on the stats I’ve supplied... and it’s because they know the information is not only accurate, but it also undermines their own argument.

There’s also an obvious reason why people are employing strawman debating tactics... and it’s because it is far easier to attack and undermine a grossly and intentionally misrepresented version of my stance than it is to challenge my actual words.

If you’re not arguing against my actual words, then all you’re doing is having a discussion with yourself, because I’m not responsible for what happens inside your mind.

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 18:22

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 18:11
That’s not what I’m claiming.

My posts are intentionally long, because I provide multiple examples of scenarios to ensure I’ve conveyed my beliefs in a crystal clear manner.

Two fighters, both with the same amount of talent and athleticism, the bigger guy usually wins.

The stats I’ve already supplied clearly supports this theory, which many experienced boxers and pundits agree with (and I’ve already quoted some).

There’s a reason why people intentionally refrain from directly commenting on the stats I’ve supplied... and it’s because they know the information is not only accurate, but it also undermines their own argument.

There’s also an obvious reason why people are employing strawman debating tactics... and it’s because it is far easier to attack and undermine a grossly and intentionally misrepresented version of my stance than it is to challenge my actual words.

If you’re not arguing against my actual words, then all you’re doing is having a discussion with yourself, because I’m not responsible for what happens inside your mind.

Had you merely stated what's in bold from the onset, no one would've argued.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 20:24 I don't want you to defend the argument that the Super Heavyweight or Super Cruiserweight division should exist.

I want to open your eyes to the fact that it's a God awful idea, and should never be spoken of or talked about again.

It would be the ruin of the sport.

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 22:09 If you want to get your point across in an argument short, concise, points that make people think work. Long drawn out arguments make people suspicious, bored, and less likely to read your conclusion

In other words your long posts make you the loser in darn near everyones estimation. I think you usually do have a reasonable point but you lose it in your dreadful arguments