Is Anthony Joshua among the top ten HWs since 2000 ?

[Finkel]

I hate to interject because this isn't my argument, but Sky Sports' commentator, Jim Watt, had Valuev beating David Haye by two points on his scorecard. And before the announcement of the outcome, the veteran Scot said he'd be surprised if the judges would be swayed by Haye's hit-and-run tactics.

The Guardian thought it was a draw.

Two of the official judges scorecards considered Haye a winner by an uncomfortably wide 116-112 margin. Those scorecards just didn't seem right to me.

Valuev was a solid performer. A tricky opponent for anyone to overcome.

It's all good, it's not really an argument when the other person just keeps rewriting history to try to win.

It's funny because Haye would admit himself, he was not expected to win that fight.

[Finkel]

Now granted Donald had the two best individual rounds in Rounds 4 and 8, and also closed the fight well in the 12th. But it was really too much styling, not enough substance, imho

I had it 117-111 for Donald. He simply outboxed Valuev. I gave Valuev only rounds 2, 5, 11.

Come on man
So when Wilder KOs the guy coming off two straight stoppage losses it's note worthy enough for you to bring up, but when Valuev beat him years earlier when Liakhovich was in his come back fight after losing the title suddenly he was already irrelevant?

Of course, he was. He was KOed by Shannon Briggs FFS. That Shannon Briggs, who hadn't won a living body in ages and got schooled by McCline and Ibragimov in the nearby more or less big bouts.

Behave yourself, Donald's own family would be reticent to put in a card like that.

And Shannon Briggs was on his way to a UD loss, the American commentary team even had him down on the cards. Liahkovich foolishly tried to tough it out in a fight he had already won and got KO'd in the 12th by a guy on a 12 win KO streak and a near 80% KO ratio. It's Heavy weight boxing.

You are rewriting history to try to win an argument.

[DrDuke]

Behave yourself, Donald's own family would be reticent to put in a card like that.

And Shannon Briggs was on his way to a UD loss, the American commentary team even had him down on the cards. Liahkovich foolishly tried to tough it out in a fight he had already won and got KO'd in the 12th by a guy on a 12 win KO streak and a near 80% KO ratio.

You are rewriting history to try to win an argument.

Where did I try to rewrite something?

Wake up, that's you who tries to bring excuses for the loss of a fighter.

[Finkel]

Behave yourself, Donald's own family would be reticent to put in a card like that.

And Shannon Briggs was on his way to a UD loss, the American commentary team even had him down on the cards. Liahkovich foolishly tried to tough it out in a fight he had already won and got KO'd in the 12th by a guy on a 12 win KO streak and a near 80% KO ratio.

You are rewriting history to try to win an argument.

Where did I try to rewrite something?

Wake up, that's you who tries to bring excuses for the loss of a fighter.

Hahahaha your whole argument has been trying to explain away losses from various fighters to win the argument.

By the record books Valuev beat Donald, beat Ruiz twice, and yet you wanted to argue that they were robberies.

Have some self awareness man

edit: just to be clear I take no issue with you wanting to argue the result of a fight. I did draw the line though on moving the goal posts to the benefit of Wilder so you can defend his position at 8 and Valuev's position at 40.

My issue was with your assessment of Liahkovich's respective powers when he fought Valuev and when he fought Wilder. And specifically wanting to go down the rabbit hole to defend something like that.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

- I already busted your ignorant idiocy over the Field fight that calls into question more than you having Niko losing every fight you scored.

And that would be your credentials as a Russian living there, yet you write like an American with all that associated lexicon, but that the least of what I'm going to say.

Field dancing like an organ grinders monkey doing nothing else don't win rounds by the ABC rules of scoring any more than hanging on to Niko like a paid woman of pleasure.

He was a UNLICENSED fighter under permanent suspension in a Tyny country not associated with boxing lacking a commissioner. Nobody least of all Niko wanted the fight save the Field koolaide brigade. Nobody ranked wanted to hurt the fool and Niko moved heaven and hell to get out of the fraud, but he couldn't move DKing nor his horrid contract, so he did his damnedest not to hurt him. His purse of $75k wouldn't pay his hospital bill, it was supposed to be lunch money for his dozen kids he could no longer support. He was near the end of his 28-10-2 hvy record.

The thread either needs to be renamed or scrapped as Lewis, Tyson, and many others were nonentities 2000-20. The Ks dominated as has AJ now and Niko highly rated as one of the top WBA guys, DKings last gasp where he had them in constant rotation with each other. Chagaev and Pinky Haye had to be hospitalized with rope burns on their backs vs Niko.

Niko wasn't going to chase around a shot, brain damaged fighter, but at one pt he herded field into the corner like a smal child and commenced a blizzard of pulled body shots that nobody could see because he had literally swallowed him up before spitting him out to return to ring center as champ to await more of nothing from Field.

Oh, for the rest of you, pray tell us again how many defenses does Fury have? Huge supporter until he ducked the Wlad rematch followed by PED charges before conveniently have his hero's mental breakdown, Boo Hoo Hoo!

[oogiebe]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

- I already busted your ignorant idiocy over the Field fight that calls into question more than you having Niko losing every fight you scored.

And that would be your credentials as a Russian living there, yet you write like an American with all that associated lexicon, but that the least of what I'm going to say.

Field dancing like an organ grinders monkey doing nothing else don't win rounds by the ABC rules of scoring any more than hanging on to Niko like a paid woman of pleasure.

He was a UNLICENSED fighter under permanent suspension in a Tyny country not associated with boxing lacking a commissioner. Nobody least of all Niko wanted the fight save the Field koolaide brigade. Nobody ranked wanted to hurt the fool and Niko moved heaven and hell to get out of the fraud, but he couldn't move DKing nor his horrid contract, so he did his damnedest not to hurt him. His purse of $75k wouldn't pay his hospital bill, it was supposed to be lunch money for his dozen kids he could no longer support. He was near the end of his 28-10-2 hvy record.

The thread either needs to be renamed or scrapped as Lewis, Tyson, and many others were nonentities 2000-20. The Ks dominated as has AJ now and Niko highly rated as one of the top WBA guys, DKings last gasp where he had them in constant rotation with each other. Chagaev and Pinky Haye had to be hospitalized with rope burns on their backs vs Niko.

Niko wasn't going to chase around a shot, brain damaged fighter, but at one pt he herded field into the corner like a smal child and commenced a blizzard of pulled body shots that nobody could see because he had literally swallowed him up before spitting him out to return to ring center as champ to await more of nothing from Field.

Oh, for the rest of you, pray tell us again how many defenses does Fury have? Huge supporter until he ducked the Wlad rematch followed by PED charges before conveniently have his hero's mental breakdown, Boo Hoo Hoo!

Please tell me you're taking the piss.

[bobcatbox]

Also if he retired now, he gets in the HoF. So what do I know.

Man, Wilder’s HoF credentials could be a thread that gets pretty heated as well. He play a big part in bringing heavyweight boxing back into the American public interest with the Fury PPVs...

For the record, and on the topic of this thread, I strongly believe AJ would beat Valuev.

[Enlightened-One]

Man, Wilder’s HoF credentials could be a thread that gets pretty heated as well.

Deontay Wilder:

Pros:
• An Olympic bronze medallist
• Possessed an amateur record of 30-5
• Competed in in twelve world heavyweight title fights (losing only one of them, but made ten successful defences)
• Achieved the twelfth longest (combined) world heavyweight championship reign
• Excluding The RING & Lineal titles, only four men have performed more successful/consecutive world heavyweight championship defences during their title reigns (i.e. Tommy Burns = 13; Wladimir Klitschko = 18; Larry Holmes = 19; & Joe Louis = 26), with Wilder’s tally equalling that of Muhammad Ali
• Five of his bouts were against former world champions (Tyson Fury [twice], Bermane Stiverne [twice] & Siarhei Liakhovich)
• Defeated five unbeaten fighters
• Seven of his bouts were against top-ten world-rated opposition, as per The RING ratings (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Luis Ortiz [twice], Tyson Fury [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• If Wilder retired today, he’d overtake Vitali Klitschko, in possessing the highest knockout percentage of any former world heavyweight champion, due to winning 93% of his bouts by KO)

Cons:
• Wilder has only ever beaten three top-ten world-rated heavyweights (Bermane Stiverne, Luis Ortiz & Dominic Breazeale)
• Apart from Tyson Fury and Johann Duhaupas, every single one of his defences of the WBC world championship came against fellow Al Haymon stablemates (i.e. Bermane Stiverne [twice], Eric Molina, Artur Szpilka, Chris Arreola, Gerald Washington, Luis Ortiz [twice] & Dominic Breazeale)
• Has only ever beaten two top-five world-rated opponents (Bermane Stiverne [1st fight = 3rd] and Luis Ortiz [1st fight = 5th])
• Only ever performed two mandatory defences of his WBC title during his five years, one month & five-day reign (i.e. the Stiverne rematch and Dominic Breazeale, with both of these guys being fellow Al Haymon stablemates)
• Despite being the world heavyweight champion for more than five years, he’s never enjoyed a prolonged spell of being regarded as the “main man” of that division (i.e. the likes of Wladimir Klitschko, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury have usually held that moniker over the same timeframe)
• During his last seven outings, Wilder probably hasn’t won a single round where he failed to score a knockdown (this is more of a personal opinion rather than being an irrefutable fact, but regardless, it won't be far removed from universally-regarded reality)

[margaret thatcher]

Also if he retired now, he gets in the HoF. So what do I know.

Man, Wilder’s HoF credentials could be a thread that gets pretty heated as well. He play a big part in bringing heavyweight boxing back into the American public interest with the Fury PPVs...

For the record, and on the topic of this thread, I strongly believe AJ would beat Valuev.

The Fury fights did less combined than the Tyson exhibition lol.....I don't think his drawing power makes a hof argument

I think he's a pretty clear no at the moment, just lacking the quality. Bermane Stiverne and Dom Breazeale are prob in his top 3 opponents beaten. he's only beaten 2 guys who were world champs and 1 of them was past it (sergey).

he's kinda like a lower level julian jackson case where the argument would be based on having an exceptional and memorable attribute. stronger case than big nikolay though

[Enlightened-One]

It's kind of weird that most people seem to underrate Chris Byrd, so I thought I'd provide a decent argument to support his credentials as being a worthy candidate to being classed amongst the top-ten heavyweights of the millennium...

Chris Byrd's average weight for the entire duration of his career was only 209½ lbs. And when he failed to win a bout, he was usually outweighed by a significant margin.

If we’re considering the “regular” version of the WBA title, then seven of his fights were against former/current world champions, with four of those contests against Hall-of-Famers.

He was also a two-time world heavyweight champion and had also engaged in eight world title bouts (capturing the titles by beating Vitali Klitschko & Evander Holyfield).

Chris typically weighed 212lbs in his world title fights and was facing men that usually outweighed him by 25lbs to 30lbs. And you'll struggle to find many champions that had to overcome that sort of deficit.

And let’s not forget that Chris Byrd amassed an amateur record of 290-25, winning three US national titles and was also an Olympic silver medallist at MIDDLEWEIGHT.

Byrd was also considered a top-ten world rated heavyweight seven times from 1998 and in 2005, The RING regarded him as being the top dog of the division (as per their April 2006 edition).

[DrDuke]

Behave yourself, Donald's own family would be reticent to put in a card like that.

And Shannon Briggs was on his way to a UD loss, the American commentary team even had him down on the cards. Liahkovich foolishly tried to tough it out in a fight he had already won and got KO'd in the 12th by a guy on a 12 win KO streak and a near 80% KO ratio.

You are rewriting history to try to win an argument.

Where did I try to rewrite something?

Wake up, that's you who tries to bring excuses for the loss of a fighter.

Hahahaha your whole argument has been trying to explain away losses from various fighters to win the argument.

By the record books Valuev beat Donald, beat Ruiz twice, and yet you wanted to argue that they were robberies.

Have some self awareness man

edit: just to be clear I take no issue with you wanting to argue the result of a fight. I did draw the line though on moving the goal posts to the benefit of Wilder so you can defend his position at 8 and Valuev's position at 40.

My issue was with your assessment of Liahkovich's respective powers when he fought Valuev and when he fought Wilder. And specifically wanting to go down the rabbit hole to defend something like that.

Why do you bring different quotes and record books as arguments? You don't appreciate your own opinion? You bring some other ones as well as multiple emojis in your posts to make your nonsense more convincing. I'm not sold on this, bruh.

Valuev was sh!t. He had almost no tools as a boxer. Wilder had at least punching power. They had about the same opposition level, they was protected about the same.

They both were aided by the judges, but eventually Wilder was knocking everyone out and no one gives a damn about his cards. With Valuev it all went to robberies. Among the two it was Wilder who eventually needed less help from the outside.

Wilder simply was better than Valuev.

[DrDuke]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

- I already busted your ignorant idiocy over the Field fight that calls into question more than you having Niko losing every fight you scored.

And that would be your credentials as a Russian living there, yet you write like an American with all that associated lexicon, but that the least of what I'm going to say.

Field dancing like an organ grinders monkey doing nothing else don't win rounds by the ABC rules of scoring any more than hanging on to Niko like a paid woman of pleasure.

He was a UNLICENSED fighter under permanent suspension in a Tyny country not associated with boxing lacking a commissioner. Nobody least of all Niko wanted the fight save the Field koolaide brigade. Nobody ranked wanted to hurt the fool and Niko moved heaven and hell to get out of the fraud, but he couldn't move DKing nor his horrid contract, so he did his damnedest not to hurt him. His purse of $75k wouldn't pay his hospital bill, it was supposed to be lunch money for his dozen kids he could no longer support. He was near the end of his 28-10-2 hvy record.

The thread either needs to be renamed or scrapped as Lewis, Tyson, and many others were nonentities 2000-20. The Ks dominated as has AJ now and Niko highly rated as one of the top WBA guys, DKings last gasp where he had them in constant rotation with each other. Chagaev and Pinky Haye had to be hospitalized with rope burns on their backs vs Niko.

Niko wasn't going to chase around a shot, brain damaged fighter, but at one pt he herded field into the corner like a smal child and commenced a blizzard of pulled body shots that nobody could see because he had literally swallowed him up before spitting him out to return to ring center as champ to await more of nothing from Field.

Oh, for the rest of you, pray tell us again how many defenses does Fury have? Huge supporter until he ducked the Wlad rematch followed by PED charges before conveniently have his hero's mental breakdown, Boo Hoo Hoo!

You don't even know, how ridiculous your judgement is. You talk about what you don't know and that's why your look so embarrassing eventually. Here in Russia everyone who follow boxing closely knows that Valuev actually sucked. The Russian boxing community ridicules Valuev. And that's OK, because providing the support for the professional athletes only because they are from your county is horribly naive.

The following stuff of yours is on the level of conspiracy theories. It's either trolling or delirium, so I can only suggest you not to forget to take the pills anymore.

[Finkel]

Where did I try to rewrite something?

Wake up, that's you who tries to bring excuses for the loss of a fighter.

Hahahaha your whole argument has been trying to explain away losses from various fighters to win the argument.

By the record books Valuev beat Donald, beat Ruiz twice, and yet you wanted to argue that they were robberies.

Have some self awareness man

edit: just to be clear I take no issue with you wanting to argue the result of a fight. I did draw the line though on moving the goal posts to the benefit of Wilder so you can defend his position at 8 and Valuev's position at 40.

My issue was with your assessment of Liahkovich's respective powers when he fought Valuev and when he fought Wilder. And specifically wanting to go down the rabbit hole to defend something like that.

Why do you bring different quotes and record books as arguments? You don't appreciate your own opinion? You bring some other ones as well as multiple emojis in your posts to make your nonsense more convincing. I'm not sold on this, bruh.

Um, okay...

Well people tend to use quotes to establish the general consensus around events, especially historical ones from the people who were there or on the periphery of involvement. And especially in a sport as subjective as boxing.

I'm happy with my opinion, just as I am sure you are with yours, but what's the phrase...Opinions are like arseholes...

Generally to make an argument you need more than just your opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is how people try to convince each other, bruh.

As for emoticons, they express emotion. I find that the medium of mere text on a forum can often be misconstrued. Just another tool for communication. Nothing more than that.

Valuev was sh!t. He had almost no tools as a boxer. Wilder had at least punching power. They had about the same opposition level, they was protected about the same.

Well I still don't think Valuev was "sh!t", but
I do agree Wilder has the bigger punch.

It seems we are starting to find common ground. Let's say they had similar opposition level.

They both were aided by the judges, but eventually Wilder was knocking everyone out and no one gives a damn about his cards. With Valuev it all went to robberies. Among the two it was Wilder who eventually needed less help from the outside.

Okay so the trouble here is we need to seperate out the wheat from the chaff.

It only didn't matter when Wilder was KOing people who were just there to stuff his resume - sure.

We have Stiverne 1. Wilder couldn't KO him, but he did outbox to win the title.

But after that?

Ortiz 1 was the first fight where Wilder was up against someone who wasn't there to merely pad his resume. And he needed outside help to win that fight.

Then there was Fury 1, and he needed outside help to get a draw.

I agree no one really cares about the cards in the other fights, because they were not serious opponents, they were put infront of him to lose by KO (to maintain this image of him being the most dangerous puncher in history) and that includes the vast majority of his title defenses. They should have never been in position to get a title shot in the first place.


I'll get to the point:

So, okay, you have been keen to dismiss all of Valuev's best fights if they were controversial. Fine, then we should do that with Wilder too.
So what are we left with?

Wilder versus Stiverne 1
Valuev versus Ruiz 2 or Liakhovich

Maybe you want to include
Wilder versus Breazeale
But
Valuev has his win over Barret

Wilder simply was better than Valuev.

Wilder probably is better, but it suddenly becomes less clear. So, how do you put Wilder at 8 and Valuev at top40?

Wilder has the elite power
Valuev has the elite chin

The difference in boxing ability is arguable either way.
The difference in best wins is arguable either way.



(Btw if you are bored of discussing this just tell me, it's all good)

[DrDuke]

Ortiz 1 was the first fight where Wilder was up against someone who wasn't there to merely pad his resume. And he needed outside help to win that fight.

Then there was Fury 1, and he needed outside help to get a draw.

Yeah, Wilder needed some outside help, I hasn't said, that he didn't need it at all, I said: "less than Valuev".

So, okay, you have been keen to dismiss all of Valuev's best fights if they were controversial. Fine, then we should do that with Wilder too.
So what are we left with?

Wilder versus Stiverne 1
Valuev versus Ruiz 2 or Liakhovich

Maybe you want to include
Wilder versus Breazeale
But
Valuev has his win over Barret

If to rank all their more or less relevant performances by the significance, I'd place them like that:

1. Ortiz X2
2. Stiverne 1
3. Fury 1 - having Fury down in a controversial draw was definitely more impressive, than controversial wins over Ruiz, Donald and shot Holyfield.
4. Ruiz X2.
5. Duhaupas, Larry Donald, Valuev's Liakhovich.
6. Stiverne 2, Arreola, Szpilka, Washington, Wilder's Liakhovich, Barrett, Holyfield (and I even not sure, if nearly 50 year old man can make the list).

So, this + the fact that Wilder possessed at least power, which could make him a dangerous opponent despite his lack of skills - because of all this stuff I'd say, that there's a quite huge gap between Wilder and Valuev. Well, maybe Wilder could actually be a bit lower, in the top 10 - top 20 range, behind the likes of Byrd and Rahman, for instance, but I won't place Valuev higher for sure.

P.S. Ya, I'm already a bit bored to talk about this.

[squiggy]

This is like an argument over whether anything tastes better than a turd

[oogiebe]

This is like an argument over whether anything tastes better than a turd