2008 Olympic Games Beijing 8.8.08-8.24.08 (with spoilers)

[boxmel]

He hasn't been hiding and his comment wasn't unsolicited. He wasn't complaining, they asked his opionion and he gave it. I think his point is that there may have been some bad judging in recent Olympiads, but was it enough to completely revamp the system that had been in place for so long?

Yes - it was revamp or the IOC was going to drop boxing from the Olympics. Under the old manual system a judge could, literally, pick whoever he wanted by putting 20-19 in all four rounds for the red corner, or vice versa. He didn't even have to count punches. This is what happened with Roy Jones in 1988. Two judges had it for Roy and two had it for the South Korean. When interviewed after the bouts, (I think it was the Hungarian judge) said that since he knew RJJ had won, he felt sorry for the South Korean losing in his home country and gave him the win. RJJ lost on a 3-2.

Referees are not allowed to give a warning in the 4th round - only in the first three.

Low scores are bad because boxers feel cheated especially when they don't credit for any punches that land in a 0 point round.

I agree - and another reason to not have open scoring where the athletes can see the points. Especially since everyone has a really hard time with the "accepted" points - and I understand why.

AIBA did proudly proclaim that there were no scoring protests in Chicago, making it curious that they would change their guidance -

Maybe AIBA didn't equate the lack of protests with high scoring, if that was even the reason?

[emile]

Referees are not allowed to give a warning in the 4th round - only in the first three.

Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. I can see why, in that the refs could end up deciding fights in the most controversial ways - but if there is no threat of penalization, there is all the incentive in the world to do whatever it takes to hold on to the lead.

[boxmel]

Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. I can see why, in that the refs could end up deciding fights in the most controversial ways

Yep. 8)

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but if there is no threat of penalization, there is all the incentive in the world to do whatever it takes to hold on to the lead.

Warnings in the first three rounds are okay and with the excessive holding this year, should probably be more prevelent. Some refs are cautioning and warning, others are cautioning (over the 3 for the same foul) and not warning, and others are disregarding. Quite a few have given cautions for running, but only in the 4th round.

AIBA started the "let them hold" criteria when the complaints were that the boxers weren't allowed "to fight" due to too much referee interference. Seems to me they have gone the other end of the stick.

Unfortunately, you can't please everyone.

[holeymoley99]

Artayev gave Korobov a boxing lesson and no it wasnt even as close as the score showed because Artayev was laning cleaning punches with scoring and Korobov was given points when he missed completely (Like the slow motion replay between round 1 and 2 showed).

Like I had stated Artayev had been a bit inconsistant since the 2004 games BUT after an Olympic gold and Val Barker trophy any other tournament is a bit harder to get up for. This is the pinnacle and he showed up in grand style. Kudos.

[Kolya]

Hate to say it, but does anyone think the USA would have been better off had Danny Jacobs won the Trials? Or Shawn Porter? With the way these guys want to wrestle, I can imagine what would have happened the first time they tried to hold on to Shawn.

[Canada]

Shawn Porter was completly schooled by Degale,knocked out by Correa and was doing bad in dual meets, I doubt they wouldve done any better with him. Jacobs was unproven internationally and was completly outclassed by Korobov. With the draw Estrada got , it wouldn't matter if it was Porter or Jacobs, I doubt they would make it to the medal round.

[Kolya]

That's true. It just seems that Danny might have been more physically talented than Shawn Estrada and might have had a better chance with more experience. I know he got schooled by Korobov. I didn't know about Porter being beaten like that though. Correa really put him out? What happened?

[Hugo]

Mel, Dennis, koyla, DC, and others, after a week of competition on the books what would you guys done diferently like:
1- What boxers would you change in the team that would do better with the olympic scoring.
2- Is the first year of the team living in the OTC and like everything in life needs time to get better, do you support the team living in the OTC or rather to be eliminated.
3- If you support the idea of living in the OTC what would you add or change to the program.
4- Do we have the right coaching staff or should we looking into recluting a Cuban coach, like others country have done to become powerhouses.
It would be nice to hear diferents ideas from the boxing family.

[Kolya]

I believe in the residency program; but I feel it needs to be publicized and the boxers need to know in advance if they win the trials they'll be expected to be in CS for a year. I do think they should overhaul the coaching staff; and I've said for a long time we should swallow our pride and bring on a Cuban or Russian coach to help with the international style. That and we need to get the guys more international experience, not just in the Olympic years but overall if it could be afforded. Also, the guys who went are all guys who won the Olympic Trials; so they earned their spot on the team...I agree with Mel and Dennis though that maybe the team should be picked closer to the time of the Olympics so we don't have these problems of guys trying to keep a weight for a year, especially if they're young and still growing.

[Canada]

That's true. It just seems that Danny might have been more physically talented than Shawn Estrada and might have had a better chance with more experience. I know he got schooled by Korobov. I didn't know about Porter being beaten like that though. Correa really put him out? What happened?

Correa landed a big left hook in the second round that dropped Shawn badly and the referee waved it off.

[Kolya]

Wow. When was this? Shawn looks like a tank; really hard to fight. I saw his match with Wade at the Trials and aside from being knocked down by Wade early he just seemed to strong for him.

[Canada]

Wow. When was this? Shawn looks like a tank; really hard to fight. I saw his match with Wade at the Trials and aside from being knocked down by Wade early he just seemed to strong for him.

2007 Pan American Games

[Kolya]

Wow. I'll have to look that up. Correa I was hoping to see box Korobov in the finals, guess that's not going to happen.

[holeymoley99]

It appeared judge #3's button was working when pressed. The fight ended up in a draw even after accepted score so each judge had to pressed for who they thought won and when #3 pressed his prefered color nothing registered ? No idea if it didnt work the entire fight or the entire sesssion. I doubt we ever find out the true story though because it could present a mess that couldnt be fixed. Scary

[Dennis]

Referees are not allowed to give a warning in the 4th round - only in the first three.

Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. I can see why, in that the refs could end up deciding fights in the most controversial ways - but if there is no threat of penalization, there is all the incentive in the world to do whatever it takes to hold on to the lead.

Mel - where does it say that in the rulebook? So a boxer can do any foul they want in the 4th round? I have a feeling it is not a rule, but rather the refs are instructed not to do it unless absolutely necessary.

[Dennis]

Wow. When was this? Shawn looks like a tank; really hard to fight. I saw his match with Wade at the Trials and aside from being knocked down by Wade early he just seemed to strong for him.

2007 Pan American Games

Actually, the punch was not a legal scoring blow. It landed with heel of the palm near the wrist, not with the knuckle portion of the glove. Shawn did go down hard and looked out, but popped up and looked OK just like Anthony Bonsante did recently. Shawn beat the count though, but the ref still waived it off.
I did not see the Degale bout, so I can't comment.

[Dennis]

Mel, Dennis, koyla, DC, and others, after a week of competition on the books what would you guys done diferently like:
1- What boxers would you change in the team that would do better with the olympic scoring.
2- Is the first year of the team living in the OTC and like everything in life needs time to get better, do you support the team living in the OTC or rather to be eliminated.
3- If you support the idea of living in the OTC what would you add or change to the program.
4- Do we have the right coaching staff or should we looking into recluting a Cuban coach, like others country have done to become powerhouses.
It would be nice to hear diferents ideas from the boxing family.

1. I think there are certain boxers who might have performed better, but I don't like the idea of a hand picked team no matter who is doing the picking. I have been an outspoken critic of picking the team so far in advance and not having to continue to "deserve" the spot. Qualify a country for a weight class and not a particular boxer that way boxers can be replaced if necessary.
2. I did not like the idea of the residency program as it was implemented in 2007 through August 2008. I think the personal coaches should not be kept away from the boxers and should be allowed to work with their boxers without having to do it in a clandestine fashion.
3. I think the OTC should be used to have boxers and coaches come and stay for a 1-2 weeks at a time to learn skills. They can then go home and work on what they learn. Not just the Olympic team either. We need to rotate boxers and coaches through the OTC on a regular basis. That way the skill level of all the boxers can improve and those who go to the London Olympics will be that much better.
4. I think it is obvious that we have to make a lot of changes. I would not be opposed to having a successful coach from Cuba, Russia or somewhere else come in and help show our boxers the way to gold.

[Dennis]

I watched Correa's bout and again he "slaps" a lot and gets credit sometimes for punches that land with the inside of the gloves. Sometimes as low as his wrist. He is a skilled boxer, but I don't think illegal blows should be scored. They are not suppose to count.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Mel, Dennis, koyla, DC, and others, after a week of competition on the books what would you guys done diferently like:
1- What boxers would you change in the team that would do better with the olympic scoring.
2- Is the first year of the team living in the OTC and like everything in life needs time to get better, do you support the team living in the OTC or rather to be eliminated.
3- If you support the idea of living in the OTC what would you add or change to the program.
4- Do we have the right coaching staff or should we looking into recluting a Cuban coach, like others country have done to become powerhouses.
It would be nice to hear diferents ideas from the boxing family.

I agree with the residency program too. I just would like to see the personal coaches involved because I think it would make it more likely that boxers would adjust their styles if their coaches are onboard. I would also like to see a Cuban or Russian coach involved because it's obvious that they understand (even though 7 Russians are out :) ) what judges are looking for and I think it really the difference that were seeing. Our boxers, for the most part are talented enough to NOT lose early in the Olympics. They just don't have the understanding of how to score.

I don't think we have the right coaching staff right now, because they just haven't created a team atmosphere. It may have turned out differently if they handled certain situations differently and did air dirty laundry out in the open.

I think that if a boxers earns his way on the team and to the Olympics, he is the best. Especially with the double elimination in place, I feel confident that the boxers that are on the team should be. It's easy to second guess team members after the fact, but they earned the right to be there. So I would stand behind anyone that made the team and then qualified.

[holeymoley99]

Going into the Quarters

Cuba-9
China-6
Kaz-5
Russia-4
France-4
Thailand-4
Ukraine-3
Ireland-3
Mongolia-3
England-3
India-3
Italy-3
Algeria-3

Africa is REALLY struggling this year more then in the past. Not sure they are improving like many had thought. Botswana does have a fighter alive though as Ikgopoleng a cagey vet has looked great.

[Gray-Fox]

What a masterstroke by Cuba. They proved their dominance in Athens, and once again they're proving it. Truly brilliant.

[Kolya]

Kinda helps the officials have a hard-on for them too.

[squarering]

Hugo wrote:
Mel, Dennis, koyla, DC, and others, after a week of competition on the books what would you guys done diferently like:
1- What boxers would you change in the team that would do better with the olympic scoring.
2- Is the first year of the team living in the OTC and like everything in life needs time to get better, do you support the team living in the OTC or rather to be eliminated.
3- If you support the idea of living in the OTC what would you add or change to the program.
4- Do we have the right coaching staff or should we looking into recluting a Cuban coach, like others country have done to become powerhouses.
It would be nice to hear diferents ideas from the boxing family. J


My take on the situation is that everything starts with moral. That's how you bring a team together and that will make everything move in the right direction. If you are going to take a boxer that has spent his life under his coach, which in many cases is a father or father figure, start the process by involving that coach so they get on board with the program. How is a boxer going to be totally supportive of a program if he feels is home camp is not. This pits a boxers against the program right from the beginning and you have an uphill battle. It all starts with respect, respect from USA Boxing for the personal coaches. respect for USA Boxing from the personal coaches and respect between the boxers and the training staff at the OTC. You have seen it in football, and every other sport, when a team does not gel it stifles progress. It will / would take a very special person to accomplish this, but I think it is the foundation to a successfully program. After that, it's all about having the good conditioning and technical coaching staff. Then treat them like men..........but watch them like children. Just my two cents since I have played spectator on here for a while.

[boxmel]

1- What boxers would you change in the team that would do better with the olympic scoring.

None. I think the selection process is fair. I think picking a year in advance was a huge mistake and all our elite boxers need more and consistent international experience.

2- Is the first year of the team living in the OTC and like everything in life needs time to get better, do you support the team living in the OTC or rather to be eliminated.

Under the present set up, I think it needs to be eliminated. There are just too many minuses that are insurmountable. Besides, rumor has it the USOC is not in favor of keeping it.

4- Do we have the right coaching staff or should we looking into recluting a Cuban coach, like others country have done to become powerhouses.

I don't think we have the right head coach in place. And, trust me, the egos here would probably never allow a coach outside of the U.S. to take over. Also - we are the only country who's Olympic programs are NOT funded by the government. Other countries can make a decision to hire a Cuban coach and run with it. We have to many other layers, and egos, to work through.

The "no warning in the 4th round" is not a rule. It's a policy that can be stated or not at any given World event.

watched Correa's bout and again he "slaps" a lot and gets credit sometimes for punches that land with the inside of the gloves. Sometimes as low as his wrist. He is a skilled boxer, but I don't think illegal blows should be scored. They are not suppose to count.

I have watched several bouts this week where slaps were counted, even after the ref had given a caution for slapping. Judges are not supposed to score a point until they see it land.

It appeared judge #3's button was working when pressed. The fight ended up in a draw even after accepted score so each judge had to pressed for who they thought won and when #3 pressed his prefered color nothing registered ? No idea if it didnt work the entire fight or the entire sesssion.

If a judge's button, or buttons, aren't working this can be seen on the monitors and the jury would be aware of the problem throughout the entire bout. I know, in the U.S., when we have had a major glitch like that, we've told the ring captain to go to paper and the problem is fixed before the next bout. I don't know what AIBA does.

Generally speaking, I agree with Dennis and SquareRing.

[Gray-Fox]

Sapiyev was robbed blind.

fornicating disgrace.