Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[Giancarlo]

Maybe the Duce is a frustrated comedian or comedienne.

He's the only clown in here that I don't find funny.

Then again, there isn't really anything funny about racist slurs is there.

[p4p1]

The correct answer is that probably not as he lost athletic prime years and obviously didn't train as much as he would of if he was fighting during those years, but we will never know for sure. Everything else people say is bullshit for their own agenda.

A better question IMO regarding the lay off would be did the lay off help Ali's longevity because of less west and tear on his body through the training or did it hurt it because of more punishment he took after he never got back to 100% after the exile.

[Giancarlo]

I'm glad Buzz finally locked those 2 ridiculous threads.

[ThatOne]

The correct answer is that probably not as he lost athletic prime years and obviously didn't train as much as he would of if he was fighting during those years, but we will never know for sure. Everything else people say is bullshit for their own agenda.

A better question IMO regarding the lay off would be did the lay off help Ali's longevity because of less west and tear on his body through the training or did it hurt it because of more punishment he took after he never got back to 100% after the exile.

Muhammad Ali was the greatest "reflex fighter" to ever live. Combine that with a great beard and heart and he was bound to go far. The exile or the ban robbed him of the years when his reflexes matched his beard and heart.

To those that say he didn't lose anything during his three and one half year layoff watch how football, baseball, and basketball players perform in the preseason and the regular season and those athletes were only off for a couple of months.

[ThatOne]

I'm glad Buzz finally locked those 2 ridiculous threads.

He had to, because you ruined them by posting 'ridiculous' statements.

Regarding Cassius Clay and his peak.

If he went into the U.S. Military like he was supposed to in 1964, he would have been
out in 1966, and probably still have been regarded as Champion.

The only bouts that would have been off his record were most likely the
* Sonny Liston II
* Floyd Patterson
* George Chuvalo

All three bouts were 'busts', and did not change the 'flavor' of Cassius Clay.

Cassius would have picked up the pieces in 1966, against Brian London and Henry Cooper,
as a former representative of the U.S. Army Military in the Greatest Country of the World.

"Supposed to", says who. The United States Supreme Court said he wasn't supposed to, ergo:
PER CURIAM.

The petitioner was convicted for willful refusal to submit to induction into the Armed Forces. 62 Stat. 622, as amended, 50 U.S.C.App. § 462(a). (1964 ed., Supp. V). The judgment of conviction was affirmed by the Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. 1 We granted certiorari, 400 U.S. 990, 91 S.Ct. 457, 27 L.Ed.2d 438 to consider whether the induction notice was invalid because grounded upon an erroneous denial of the petitioner's claim to be classified as a conscientious objector.

* The petitioner's application for classification as a conscientious objector was turned down by his local draft board, and he took an administrative appeal. The State Appeal Board tentatively classified him I—A (eligible for unrestricted military service) and referred his file to the Department of Justice for an advisory recommendation, in accordance with then-applicable procedures. 50 U.S.C.A.App. § 456(j) (1964 ed., Supp. V). The FBI then conducted an 'inquiry' as required by the statute, interviewing some 35 persons, including members of the petitioner's family and many of his friends, neighbors, and business and religious associates.

There followed a hearing on 'the character and good faith of the (petitioner's objections' before a hearing officer appointed by the Department. The hearing officer, a retired judge of many years' experience, 2 heard testimony from the petitioner's mother and father, from one of his attorneys, from a minister of his religion, and from the petitioner himself. He also had the benefit of a full report from the FBI. On the basis of this record the hearing officer concluded that the registrant was sincere in his objection on religious grounds to participation in war in any form, and he recommended that the conscientious objector claim be sustained. 3

Notwithstanding this recommendation, the Department of Justice wrote a letter to the Appeal Board, advising it that the petitioner's conscientious objector claim should be denied. Upon receipt of this letter of advice, the Board denied the petitioner's claim without a statement of reasons. After various further proceedings which it is not necessary to recount here, the petitioner was ordered to report for induction. He refused to take the traditional step forward, and this prosecution and conviction followed.

II

In order to qualify for classification as a conscientious objector, a registrant must satisfy three basic tests. He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form. Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437, 91 S.Ct. 828, 28 L.Ed.2d 168. He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief, as the term has been construed in our decisions. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 85 S.Ct. 850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733; Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333, 90 S.Ct. 1792, 26 L.Ed.2d 308. And he must show that this objection is sincere. Witmer v. United States, 348 U.S. 375, 75 S.Ct. 392, 99 L.Ed. 428. In applying these tests, the Selective Service System must be concerned with the registrant as an individual, not with its own interpretation of the dogma of the religious sect, if any, to which he may belong. United States v. Seeger, supra; Gillette v. United States, supra; Williams v. United States, 5 Cir., 216 F.2d 350, 352.

In asking us to affirm the judgment of conviction, the Government argues that there was a 'basis in fact,' cf. Estep v. United States, 327 U.S. 114, 66 S.Ct. 423, 90 L.Ed. 567, for holding that the petitioner is not opposed to 'war in any form,' but is only selectively opposed to certain wars. See Gillette v. United States, supra. Counsel for the petitioner, needless to say, takes the opposite position. The issue is one that need not be resolved in this case. For we have concluded that even if the Government's position on this question is correct, the conviction before us must still be set aside for another quite independent reason.

III

The petitioner's criminal conviction stemmed from the Selective Service System's denial of his appeal seeking conscientious objector status. That denial, for which no reasons were ever given, was, as we have said, based on a recommendation of the Department of Justice, overruling its hearing officer and advising the Appeal Board that it 'finds that the registrant's conscientious-objector claim is not sustained and recommends to your Board that he be not (so) classified.' This finding was contained in a long letter of explanation, from which it is evident that Selective Service officials were led to believe that the Department had found that the petitioner had failed to satisfy each of the three basic tests for qualification as a conscientious objector.

As to the requirement that a registrant must be opposed to war in any form, the Department letter said that the petitioner's expressed beliefs 'do not appear to preclude military service in any form, but rather are limited to military service in the Armed Forces of the United States. * * * These constitute only objections to certain types of war in certain circumstances, rather than a general scruple against participation in war in any form. However, only a general scruple against participation in war in any form can support an exemption as a conscientious objector under the Act. United States v. Kauten, 2 Cir., 133 F.2d 703.'

As to the requirement that a registrant's opposition must be based upon religious training and belief, the Department letter said: 'It seems clear that the teachings of the Nation of Islam preclude fighting for the United States not because of objections to participation in war in any form but rather because of political and racial objections to policies of the United States as interpreted by Elijah Muhammad. * * * It is therefore our conclusion that registrant's claimed objections to participation in war insofar as they are based upon the teachings of the Nation of Islam, rest on grounds which primarily are political and racial.'

As to the requirement that a registrant's opposition to war must be sincere, that part of the letter began by stating that 'the registrant has not consistently manifested his conscientious-objector claim. Such a course of overt manifestations is requisite to establishing a subjective state of mind and belief.' There followed several paragraphs reciting the timing and circumstances of the petitioner's conscientious objector claim, and a concluding paragraph seeming to state a rule of law—that 'a registrant has not shown overt manifestations sufficient to establish his subjective belief where, as here, his conscientious-objector claim was not asserted until military service became imminent. Campbell v. United States, 4 Cir., 221 F.2d 454. United States v. Corliss, 280 F.2d 808, cert. denied, 364 U.S. 884, 81 S.Ct. 167, 5 L.Ed.2d 105.'

In this Court the Government has now fully conceded that the petitioner's beliefs are based upon 'religious training and belief,' as defined in United States v. Seeger, supra: 'There is no dispute that petitioner's professed beliefs were founded on basic tenets of the Muslim religion, as he understood them, and derived in substantial part from his devotion to Allah as the Supreme Being. Thus, under this Court's decision in United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 85 S.Ct. 850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733, his claim unquestionably was within the 'religious training and belief' clause of the exemption provision.' 4 This concession is clearly correct. For the record shows that the petitioner's beliefs are founded on tenets of the Muslim religion as he understands them. They are surely no less religiously based than those of the three registrants before this Court in Seeger. See also Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333, 90 S.Ct. 1792, 26 L.Ed.2d 308.

The Government in this Court has also made clear that it no longer questions the sincerity of the petitioner's beliefs. 5 This concession is also correct. The Department hearing officer—the only person at the administrative appeal level who carefully examined the petitioner and other witnesses in person and who had the benefit of the full FBI file—found 'that the registrant is sincere in his objection.' The Department of Justice was wrong in advising the Board in terms of a purported rule of law that it should disregard this finding simply because of the circumstances and timing of the petitioner's claim. See Ehlert v. United States, 402 U.S. 99, 103—104, 91 S.Ct. 1319, 1322—1323, 28 L.Ed. 625; United States ex rel. Lehman v. Laird, 4 Cir., 430 F.2d 96, 99; United States v. Abbott, 8 Cir., 425 F.2d 910, 915; United States ex rel. Tobias v. Laird, 4 Cir., 413 F.2d 936, 939—940; Cohen v. Laird, D.C., 315 F.Supp. 1265, 1277—1278.

Since the Appeal Board gave no reasons for its denial of the petitioner's claim, there is absolutely no way of knowing upon which of the three grounds offered in the Department's letter it relied. Yet the Government now acknowledges that two of those grounds were not valid. And, the Government's concession aside, it is indisputably clear, for the reasons stated, that the Department was simply wrong as a matter of law in advising that the petitioner's beliefs were not religiously based and were not sincerely held.

This case, therefore, falls squarely within the four coners of this Court's decision in Sicurella v. United States, 348 U.S. 385, 75 S.Ct. 403, 99 L.Ed. 436. There as here the Court was asked to hold that an error in an advice letter prepared by the Department of Justice did not require reversal of a criminal conviction because there was a ground on which the Appeal Board might properly have denied a conscientious objector classification. This Court refused to consider the proffered alternative ground:

'(W)e feel that this error of law by the Department, to which the Appeal Board might naturally look for guidance on such questions, must vitiate the entire proceedings at least where it is not clear that the Board relied on some legitimate ground. Here, where it is impossible to determine on exactly which grounds the Appeal Board decided, the integrity of the Selective Service System demands, at least, that the Government not recommend illegal grounds. There is an impressive body of lower court cases taking this position and we believe that they state the correct rule.' Di., at 392, 75 S.Ct., at 406.

The doctrine thus articulated 16 years ago in Sicurella was hardly new. It was long ago established as essential to the administration of criminal justice. Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359, 51 S.Ct. 532, 75 L.Ed. 1117. In Stromberg the Court reversed a conviction for violation of a California statute containing three separate clauses, finding one of the three clauses constitutionally invalid. As Chief Justice Hughes put the matter, '(I)t is impossible to say under which clause of the statute the conviction was obtained.' Thus, 'if any of the clauses in question is invalid under the Federal Constitution, the conviction cannot be upheld.' Id., at 368, 51 S.Ct., at 535.

The application of this doctrine in the area of Selective Service law goes back at least to 1945, and Judge Learned Hand's opinion for the Second Circuit in United States ex rel. Levy v. Cain, 149 F.2d 338. It is a doctrine that has been consistently and repeatedly followed by the federal courts in dealing with the criminal sanctions of the selective service laws. See, e.g., United States v. Lemmens, 430 F.2d 619, 623—624 (CA7 1970); United States v. Broyles, 423 F.2d 1299, 1303—1304 (CA4 1970); United States v. Haughton, 413 F.2d 736 (CA9 1969); United States v. Jakobson, 325 F.2d 409, 416—417 (CA2 1963), aff'd sub nom. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 85 S.Ct. 850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733; Kretchet v. United States, 284 F.2d 561, 565—566 (CA9 1960); Ypparila v. United States, 219 F.2d 465, 469 (CA10 1954); United States v. Englander, 271 F.Supp. 182 (SDNY 1967); United States v. Erikson, 149 F.Supp. 576, 578—579 (SDNY 1957). In every one of the above cases the defendant was acquitted or the conviction set aside under the Sicurella application of the Stromberg doctrine.

The long established rule of law embodied in these settled precedents thus clearly requires that the judgment before us be reversed.

It is so ordered

Judgment reversed.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/403/698

Hallelujah

[ThatOne]

Yea,

And with a bunch of Good Lawyers, Benedict Arnold would have been acquitted too.

God Bless America

If you think the conscientious objector and the traitor are one and the same there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[ThatOne]

Yea,

And with a bunch of Good Lawyers, Benedict Arnold would have been acquitted too.

God Bless America

If you think the conscientious objector and the traitor are one and the same there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

Read up on the Vietnam Conflict, and maybe you'd understand.

The North Vietnamese said Cassius Clay was doing more in America to hurt the G.I's in Vietnam, than he would have
been if was holding the end of an AK-47 pointed at the American Soldiers in the Mekong River Delta.

I have read several books on the topic. It was the second biggest strategic blunder in the history of the republic. The invasion of Iraq was the first one.

Muhammad Ali was well within his rights to oppose the Viet Nam War and he has been vindicated by our nation's highest court and history.

[ThatOne]

Vietnam

The United States were supporting the 'wrong side'.

We should have jumped in with the North and ended that 'Southeast Asian Freak Show'
in Two-Weeks in 1963.

We should have stayed out of it after the VC humiliated the French at Dien Bien Phu.

[ThatOne]

Vietnam

John F. Kennedy capped our Troop Involvement at 16,000 in 1963.

I wonder what 'Great Society Leader', expanded the United States role.....

LBJ....... "I love a good war, it gets the 'riff-raff' off of the Streets of America."

InformatinNo results found for LBJ....... "I love a good war, it gets the 'riff-raff' off of the Streets of America.".

https://www.google.com/#q=%5DLBJ....... ... merica.%22

[Giancarlo]

LBJ....... "I love a good war, it gets the 'riff-raff' off of the Streets of America."

Either include a citation or stop 'quoting' people.

You really are a simpleton.

[Giancarlo]

Two Words,

Bell Helicopter

Two words:

Bell End

[Syntax Error]

His last fight before he went through all those troubles by the time he fought Zora Folley in 1967. Did Ali ever his his true peak by then? I hear some people say that we never seen the best of Ali because he could have gotten better and better. What do you guys think?

I don't think he did.

By 1967, he'd just filled out & still had all his speed & legs, but I believe the 'lost years' of 1968/1969 is when he really would have been at his very best.

Had Ali not been banned, FOTC would have taken place in 1968 or 1969 & both Ali & Frazier would have been at their very best, no doubts.

[BoxBuzz]

His last fight before he went through all those troubles by the time he fought Zora Folley in 1967. Did Ali ever his his true peak by then? I hear some people say that we never seen the best of Ali because he could have gotten better and better. What do you guys think?

I don't think he did.

By 1967, he'd just filled out & still had all his speed & legs, but I believe the 'lost years' of 1968/1969 is when he really would have been at his very best.

Had Ali not been banned, FOTC would have taken place in 1968 or 1969 & both Ali & Frazier would have been at their very best, no doubts.

And sadly Ali would have won a close one, and grown bored fat and listless, retiring early and history would be far less interesting.
Foreman would have signed to fight Quarry, and lost....Norton would have become a movie star, leaving boxing behind, and Holmes would have gotten into the real estate business.

Without the competition around, Jimmy Young would have ruled the HW division until Thad Spencer came out of retirement to claim his destiny.

[Giancarlo]

LBJ....... "I love a good war, it gets the 'riff-raff' off of the Streets of America."

Either include a citation or stop 'quoting' people.

You really are a simpleton.

I don't take orders from someone who lives in the 'bush' with 'Skippy'

1960

Bell Helicopter {Hurst, Texas} is on the 'balls of their ass', ready to fold up shop, and declare bankruptcy.

Suddenly, Textron Industries 'scoops then up', for a 'Cup of Coffee'.

Soon there-after, a little thing called the 'Vietnam Conflict' gets rolling.

'Bingo', out the clear blue sky, an order for 7000 'UH-1' Huey Helicopters is placed.

And with another 9000 'future orders' contracted for, if the 'Conflict' escalates.

Textron Industries, a 'big big' contributor to Lyndon Baines Johnson political campaign.

So, in your tiny mind, the vietnam conflict was escalated by LBJ to the point where the USA was losing as many as 500 men a week as a payback to one of his political backers?

You really are a simpleton.

[Giancarlo]

I guess you know very little about Texas Politics and LBJ.

I obviously know more about it than you.

Then again, so does my dog.

Do you actually enjoy being an object of ridicule here?

[Giancarlo]

You couldn't find Texas on a World Atlas with directions, there 'Skippy'.

Would you like me to help with your punctuation?

Your posts are already childish and immature, but your incorrect usage of capitals and comma position suggests an underlying issue with basic writing skills.

[BoxBuzz]

Did you really live in Louisville? I think I asked this of you before. I lived in the Hurstbourne area for a few years.

[ThatOne]

All I would request is that posters show courtesy toward one another and a good start is citing one's sources....

[scallum]

I'm glad Buzz finally locked those 2 ridiculous threads.

He had to, because you ruined them by posting 'ridiculous' statements.

Regarding Cassius Clay and his peak.

If he went into the U.S. Military like he was supposed to in 1964, he would have been
out in 1966, and probably still have been regarded as Champion.

The only bouts that would have been off his record were most likely the
* Sonny Liston II
* Floyd Pattersoni
* George Chuvalo

All three bouts were 'busts', and did not change the 'flavor' of Cassius Clay.

Cassius would have picked up the pieces in 1966, against Brian London and Henry Cooper,
as a former representative of the U.S. Army Military in the Greatest Country of the World.

Who said he was supposed to go in the Military? Did you experience what he and his peoples experienced?

[BoxBuzz]

All I would request is that posters show courtesy toward one another and a good start is citing one's sources....

Well for some the sources would be "the grey matter within"

[Giancarlo]

Scallum,

What people are you talking about.

Cassius Clay came from an 'above' Middle-Class Background, and was driving a 'new' Cadillac at Age; 19 in 1961.

You mean he can relate to us 'lower-class folk'.

Are you now suggesting african-americans did not suffer a greater level of discrimination via Jim Crow segregation laws than economic migrants like italian-americans?

And you still claim you aren't a racist?

[Giancarlo]

No,

I'm not suggesting anything,,,,,,,,,but you 'Giancarlo' know the 'experience'.

You could 'feel it', is that what you're saying.

In the 'History of the World', there will always be a 'class level'.

Always has been and always will.

Proverb for you..........'Every Path Has Its Puddle'

Sounds like racist claptrap to me Duchess.

Why not just admit it and have done with it.

All this crawling up to the very edge with your offensive posts and then pulling back is a bit like the National Front in the UK. They claim they aren't racists either.

[Giancarlo]

G-Man,

You don't know me,,,,,,,,,,why cast aspersions.

I know you from your posts.

Your latest nonsense is suggesting that african-americans (including Ali) did NOT experience a much higher level of discrimination in the early 60's than italian-american economic migrants.

That reeks of stupidity or racism. Or, most likely in your case, both.

[ThatOne]

No,

I'm not suggesting anything,,,,,,,,,but you 'Giancarlo' know the 'experience'.

You could 'feel it', is that what you're saying.

In the 'History of the World', there will always be a 'class level'.

Always has been and always will.

Proverb for you..........'Every Path Has Its Puddle'

African Americans weren't discriminated against on the basis of their class. They were discriminated against on the basis of their race. The latter is a immutable characteristic and that's what made the discrimination all the more invidious.

Oh, and the Clays were working class... His father was a sign painter who painted signs when he could find work and his mother was a homemaker. They were far from middle class by the standards of their time; at least what would be considered middle class for white folks.

[ThatOne]

How many 19 year-olds in 1961 were driving a new Cadillac.......

Il Duce

How many nineteen year olds had just won the 1960 Olympic Light Heavyweight championship.?

He earned it as a gift from his management group.

Cassius, Senior and Odessa certainly didn't buy it for him.

ThatOne
-Respected board elder and purveyor of the truth