Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[oogiebe]

Fury is very light on his feet for such a huge guy. I think hed confuse liston like he confuses everyone. Hes got a very effective style

Light on his feet for such a huge guy. Not that light on his feet compared to an average sized heavyweight. He's no Ali. He would be fighting someone who has at least twice the work rate of Wilder. Liston would get to him.

Fury doesn't have the firepower or the work rate to stop Liston. He isn't going to win a decision because Liston throws a lot more punches, has a better jab, and is more accurate.
How is Fury supposed to win this, by a foul?

Fury is lighter on his feet than Liston. We (you and I) were comparing the two fighters. Don't change the direction of the conversation. You had said Liston was better than Fury in every facet of the game. To remind you, I have Liston/Fury even money and Liston favored over all the rest of today's HW's.

[margaret thatcher]

Fury can't touch slick Clev William's dancing and boxing skill

[oogiebe]

Fury can't touch slick Clev William's dancing and boxing skill

[Tony1244]

An overzealous parent? Can you really imagine EO having laid some pipe?

Perhaps he is imitating his own parents and taking it out on us.

[ValMar]

I favor Fury over Liston on account of size, speed, and can go orthodox or southpaw. I voted 2-5.

It's a tough pick. Picking Liston over Pulev, Ruiz, Miller, or Povetkin is not a tough pick.

Well done !

[margaret thatcher]

I favor Fury over Liston on account of size, speed, and can go orthodox or southpaw. I voted 2-5.

It's a tough pick. Picking Liston over Pulev, Ruiz, Miller, or Povetkin is not a tough pick.

What about Sonny vs Wilder, the guy you once picked to KO prime Holyfield, Bowe, and Louis?

[Tony1244]

I favor Fury over Liston on account of size, speed, and can go orthodox or southpaw. I voted 2-5.

It's a tough pick. Picking Liston over Pulev, Ruiz, Miller, or Povetkin is not a tough pick.

What about Sonny vs Wilder, the guy you once picked to KO prime Holyfield, Bowe, and Louis?

This must have been before Wilder's last outing.

I don't recall picking him over those 3 but it could have happened. The guy does have a puncher's chance though.

Ah duh, all 3 have better skills. But my revised edition would favor 2 out of 3 against Wilder. Think DW would have a good chance of stopping Bowe.

[thereverend]

Do you feel that my previous reponse to you was harsh? If so, can you please let me know what I wrote that seemed unfairly critical?

This is important. 'Criticism' is not a negative thing, or a negative activity, although people think it is. I didn't mean it negatively. A movie critic doesn't watch movies to say they're all terrible. A teacher doesn't critique term papers to flunk everyone. Unless they suck. By criticize I meant, give a critique of what someone wrote. I'm glad you did. This is how we learn and improve.

[Enlightened-One]

Answer this question and then I'll show you the same courtesy by answering yours.

• Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially considering the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

This is the twelfth time I've asked people to comment on the size difference between Liston & Fury (via the same set of questions pretty much written word-for-word) and every single person has flatly-refused to answer it.

No one has been brave enough, so far, to even recognise the fact I posed such a question, despite the fact it’s on-topic (i.e. Liston vs. the current top heavyweight)!

Even you have previously behaved cowardly, by refusing to answer this rather simple question! So you clearly don’t deserve to possess any sense of entitlement for me to adhere to your demands!

Tyson fury is very skilled. A skilled bigger fighter beats the skilled smaller fighter

Most people feel that way since liston is by no means in first in this poll.

I addressed all your statements quoted in an earlier post on this thread

Liston beats Price.

[Enlightened-One]

Do you feel that my previous reponse to you was harsh? If so, can you please let me know what I wrote that seemed unfairly critical?

This is important. 'Criticism' is not a negative thing, or a negative activity, although people think it is. I didn't mean it negatively. A movie critic doesn't watch movies to say they're all terrible. A teacher doesn't critique term papers to flunk everyone. Unless they suck. By criticize I meant, give a critique of what someone wrote. I'm glad you did. This is how we learn and improve.

That' possibly the most mature response to one of my posts I've ever read.

[Enlightened-One]

There’s a common theme about the feedback Max Kellerman and Joe Calzaghe give when asked to compare Tyson Fury to fighters from yesteryear.

Would anyone like to guess what it is?

[Tony1244]

Always like listening to Max Kellerman. Knowledgable, to the point, and not overly opinionated.

[Ambling Alp II]

Knowledgeable, to a point.

[Tony1244]

Knowledgeable, to a point.

I guess everyone is knowledgable to a point. Why do you say that?

[Ambling Alp II]

Kellerman is a likable guy. He loves the sport. He is no expert on boxing history.
fury moves kind of like Ali? That is akin to me saying that I sing kind of like Sinatra.

Lets take a look at Fury against guys around 210:

Draw vs Wilder
Decked by Cunningham.
Stopped the great Sefer Sefri after four rounds.
Won a decision against someone named Zach Page who had a career record of 21-45-2.

I sure Ali, Frazier and Foreman would be shaking in their boots.

But because Fury weighs a lot and can move kind of like Ali, we are supposed to believe Ali, Foreman, and Frazier would struggle. Don't want to put words in his mouth, bit it seems like he actually thinks Fury would have won. It's absurd.

[Tony1244]

Fury uses good lateral movement but he is no Ali. I generally agree with you though. I'd likely favor Ali, Foreman, and Frazier against Fury.

But just to play devil's advocate......

Ali had some trouble with Mildenburger; what's Fury going to do to him? Even Sonny Banks knocked him down.

I'm being bit tongue in cheek. My point is 1) none of us really know and 2) I wouldn't hold the Cunningham KD against him or the Sefer fight, which looked like a get rid of the rust sparring session.

[Enlightened-One]

Lets take a look at Fury against guys around 210:

Draw vs Wilder
Decked by Cunningham.
Stopped the great Sefer Sefri after four rounds.
Won a decision against someone named Zach Page who had a career record of 21-45-2.

I sure Ali, Frazier and Foreman would be shaking in their boots.

Some points to consider:

• Tyson Fury is renowned for being consistently “inconsistent”. He raises his game against top-tier opposition, but nearly always underperforms against opponents that aren’t considered threats.

• Fury’s bout against Steve Cunningham occurred more than seven years ago – 2½ years prior to the Klitschko fight… and it was also his first contest staged on US soil against world-rated opposition, so it’s fairly reasonable to assume he wasn’t at his peak.

• Even Muhammad Ali was decked against Henry Cooper early in his career, so Fury being floored against Cunningham (early in his own career) doesn’t really mean anything. Tyson is a completely different fighter now and has proceeded to becoming the first boxer in heavyweight in history to end multiple 10+ title defence streaks.

• Fury beat Wilder during their first bout. That is the commonly held perception, regardless the official scorecards.

• And the Sefer Seferi fight was Tyson’s first contest after 2½ years of inactivity (due to suspension, weight gain, mental health issues etc.).

• The Zack Page bout happened almost a decade ago and Fury was only a novice back then.

[Tony1244]

Good post by EO. I believe in miracles.

[Ambling Alp II]

So there is always an excuse?
He got decked in two different rounds against Wilder. Wilder won other rounds and yet other were close. There is no way that is a robbery.
He had been fighting several years before Cunningham who was not a contender. You can't use the he wasn't experienced enough excuse for this one.
Obviously he was relatively when he fought the Zach Page. Still the guy was a total stiff and you would have thought Fury would have blown him away.

Yes Ali was knocked down by Cooper.
Ali, Liston, everyone has negative things you can point to. However, you can also weigh that against the great things about them.

What do we have with Fury? The four times that he fought a guy that weight he was unimpressive.
Can we weigh that against blowout wins against guys in that weight range>? No.

No reason at all to to think his weight it would be an advantage Ali, Frazier, Foreman or Liston for that matter. None.

[Enlightened-One]

So there is always an excuse?
He got decked in two different rounds against Wilder. Wilder won other rounds and yet other were close. There is no way that is a robbery.

The vast majority of people that watched the first Wilder-Fury bout believed the Brit should have been awarded the victory.

Nothing more needs to be said about this.

He had been fighting several years before Cunningham who was not a contender. You can't use the he wasn't experienced enough excuse for this one.

Tyson was only 24 years of age when he faced Steve Cunningham more than seven years ago and had less amateur experience than Anthony Joshua has.

This was the Brit’s first bout on US soil, to face an American on his home turf who had previously competed in eight world title bouts and was also a two-time world champion.

Also, let's not forget that Steve Cunningham had only just lost a highly controversial decision against Tomasz Adamek, which was an IBF heavyweight title eliminator, immediately prior to facing Tyson Fury.

And apart from the Kevin Johnson bout, Fury had only previously campaigned at domestic level.

Tyson Fury is the only man to have ever stopped Steve Cunningham, which is a moderately impressive feat considering the fact that thirteen of the American's bouts have been against former/current world champions.

People also forget that Cunningham was a better fighter than his resume reads, because some of his losses to former/current world champions were controversial in nature (i.e. Krzysztof Wlodarczyk, Vyacheslav Glazkov, Tomasz Adamek, Yoan Pablo Hernandez etc.).

Steve Cunningham also faced eight unbeaten fighters, many of whom were decent names (i.e. Andrew Tabiti, Krzysztof Glowacki, Vyacheslav Glazkov, Amir Mansour, Tyson Fury & Marco Huck) and managed to beat four of them (Mansour & Huck being the most notable wins).

Obviously he was relatively when he fought the Zach Page. Still the guy was a total stiff and you would have thought Fury would have blown him away.

Why do you think that? He was only 22 years of age when he fought Page. And Tyson had considerably less amateur experience than Anthony Joshua had. I think he also had fewer amateur fights than Efe Ajagba had (but this is unverified).

Fury has never had a reputation for being a big puncher. He has always been known as a pure boxer.

And many self-proclaimed experts and industry insiders were shocked to see the gameplan he adopted for the Wilder rematch.

What do we have with Fury? The four times that he fought a guy that weight he was unimpressive.

I don’t know why you said this? Fury delivered a hugely impressive performance for the first Wilder bout. Did you not see it?

No reason at all to to think his weight it would be an advantage Ali, Frazier, Foreman or Liston for that matter. None.

Fury’s skills, coupled with his size advantage, would present a huge obstacle for all heavyweight Hall-of-Famer’s in their prime.

I'm clearly not alone in thinking like this, hence the reason for me posting videos of well-known boxing people discussing the fact that size really does matter.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sometimes less is more. I mean that for a couple of reasons.

[Enlightened-One]

Sometimes less is more. I mean that for a couple of reasons.

Sometimes more really does mean more, such as knowledge.

[oogiebe]

Fury's size plus his skill set make him a potential challenge to most All timers. I'd prefer to wait until his career is over to see if he ever eventually shows the overall consistancy that all time greats have. So far, he hasn't. Still, I'd have him even money vs Liston, as I've posted before, just to get back on track here.

[margaret thatcher]

EO doesn't worship size any more than Alp worships the timeline and who fought before who

Fury's no better than slick Clev

I remember once after he made all sorts of excuses for oldies being pre/past prime etc, struggling in fights, etc him going off on Wlad....for having a bit of trouble with Clay Bey as an amateur in the Olympics, the peak of amateur boxing, a tournament which Wlad won at 20. Omg 20 year old guy had a tough am fight on his way to winning gold! Oh how he despises anything not antique

[margaret thatcher]

Fury's size plus his skill set make him a potential challenge to most All timers. I'd prefer to wait until his career is over to see if he ever eventually shows the overall consistancy that all time greats have. So far, he hasn't. Still, I'd have him even money vs Liston, as I've posted before, just to get back on track here.

He's boxed well enough in his biggest fights for me to think he'd bring his best vs Sonny