BoxRec

watson748 wrote: Groves is way better than UK level in both the skill and power department.

i am not sure about this, at all. as far as I can see groves proven displays of skill so far rest upon his carrying his hands quite low and trying to have some kind of slick style.

but bearing in mind that Anderson- who himself is not proven to be british level- could land on Groves easily, I am not sure how this skill of Groves has been established. I mean, at least if we count 'not getting hit really easily in the face' as part of boxing skill, and if, as you say, the levels each have fought at is a central part of this argument- if those things are true, Anderson bouncing punches off Groves' head for fun doesn't exactly speak well of Groves' skill. not at all IMO. sub-british level fighter punches you in the face with ease = not defensively skillful, IMO

in my opinion Groves is one of those fighters that, stylsitically, because he has some traits of skillful fighters, may tend to be confused with a skillful fighter. groves got out of jail against Anderson because he hit harder, and becasue Anderson was blowing like an ashmatic marathon runner every time he took a bodyshot.

THEBUTCH wrote:I still make DeGale a favourite, but the more I think of it a win over Kenny Anderson is probably better and harder to achieve than a win over Paul Smith, so for me Groves is coming in with better credentials.

Great to see two top prospects facing off for the British title at this stage of their careers. And this is how it should be...not boxing each other after they've lost their youth and fire. For me, we owe this to Groves and his team, not DeGale and his lot.

On what grounds is a win over Anderson better than a win over Smith? Is it because Smigga stopped posting on here because it certainly cant be from actually looking at both fighters records? Also,Groves,DeGale,Booth and Warren have all called for this fight since they turned pro.The fact it looks like getting done proves how much they ALL want it so how we owe it to Groves and his team alone is beyond me.

Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

jBacca wrote:Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

groves is a more talented fighter than macca though.Speed wise,haye was alot quicker than mac whereas these two there wont be much difference im pretty sure.

I can't see George beating DeGale but I think he will put up a real fight. I've been surprised by how strong DeGale is; I wonder if George can force him back. DeGale doesn't seem to have (so far) one punch knockout power; I think shot for shot Groves will hit harder but DeGale has a better range of punches and seems to judge the distance very well. I think that it will be a very entertaining bout with DeGale the winner but after 6 rounds.

lefty wrote:

jBacca wrote:Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

groves is a more talented fighter than macca though.Speed wise,haye was alot quicker than mac whereas these two there wont be much difference im pretty sure.

Both Groves and Macca are defensively poor, and Groves looks to have a dodgy chin also.

It doesn't matter if Groves is more skilled than Macca because he gets tagged with ease. Degale will land, and will swarm over Groves until it's stopped.

DeGale says he will finish Groves in 4 and i'm inclined to agree. Groves will be too open, DeGale too quick.

Whilst you can never write someone off with the talent Groves has, its plain his defence and chin are not the greatest.

Right now this fight to me ends with DeGale stopping Groves before halfway.

12-18 months down the line its a closer fight as Groves will improve. Warren knows this and its why he is pushing for the fight to happen right now. FW is a master at getting the right fights at the right time for his men.

Great fight though and the sort of fight we should be getting all the time

Counter-puncher wrote:

watson748 wrote: Groves is way better than UK level in both the skill and power department.

i am not sure about this, at all. as far as I can see groves proven displays of skill so far rest upon his carrying his hands quite low and trying to have some kind of slick style.

but bearing in mind that Anderson- who himself is not proven to be british level- could land on Groves easily, I am not sure how this skill of Groves has been established. I mean, at least if we count 'not getting hit really easily in the face' as part of boxing skill, and if, as you say, the levels each have fought at is a central part of this argument- if those things are true, Anderson bouncing punches off Groves' head for fun doesn't exactly speak well of Groves' skill. not at all IMO. sub-british level fighter punches you in the face with ease = not defensively skillful, IMO

in my opinion Groves is one of those fighters that, stylistically, because he has some traits of skillful fighters, may tend to be confused with a skillful fighter. groves got out of jail against Anderson because he hit harder, and because Anderson was blowing like an ashmatic marathon runner every time he took a bodyshot.

There are many skills that make a complete boxer and few boxers (even at world class) have them all. Groves has better than UK level power and offensive skills imo. My judgement has been made from him KO'ing tough guys that hadn't been stopped before and in the timely fashion he brought about their demise. He is lacking in defensive skills as you point out and I fully concur that his daft low slung hands are not a good idea unless you have Naz type reflexes. He doesn't. But he is young and will possibly have learned an important lesson from that Anderson fight. He could have also just had an off night as many boxers do. However, that is not to say that his power and attack alone couldn't or wouldn't be enough to destroy DeGales untested chin or the best the UK or Europe has to offer. Stranger things have happened in boxing and styles make fights. I pointed out in my previous post some examples of so-called slick fighters with masses of speed and skill being stopped dead in their tracks with a hammer blow from less agile and supposedly less skillful fighters.

It is also important that we remember that DeGale has many flaws. One important flaw being that he still throws many incorrect punches and hes been warned about this many times by various refs. He has gotten away with this on the tomato cans he has fought up til now but when hes fighting a live attacking fighter that could seriously KO him at any second with a single punch, hes going to have to get everything right first time.

Like I said, I am not especially favouring one fighter over another here, I'm just pointing out that there are too many flaws on both sides for me to be confident in predicting that one of them in particular is going to easily win. I just think that many people are getting lost in the hype of skillful promotion and matchmaking in order to make their fighter look good, rather than learning their trade by being matched against tough fighters where they are getting pushed hard all the time and not looking fantastic.

lefty wrote:

jBacca wrote:Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

groves is a more talented fighter than macca though.Speed wise,haye was alot quicker than mac whereas these two there wont be much difference im pretty sure.

Macca was a world class fighter in his prime. I don't know what you are basing your first sentence on.

And please people, Anderson has done nothing to suggest he is just as good or better than Paul Smith.

Degale wins this one by a wide margin on points or a late stoppage.

crusader wrote:

lefty wrote:

jBacca wrote:Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

groves is a more talented fighter than macca though.Speed wise,haye was alot quicker than mac whereas these two there wont be much difference im pretty sure.

Macca was a world class fighter in his prime. I don't know what you are basing your first sentence on.

And please people, Anderson has done nothing to suggest he is just as good or better than Paul Smith.

Degale wins this one by a wide margin on points or a late stoppage.

I was comparing them in the way others were,there isnt a big speed difference between groves and degale like there was enzo and haye.Regarding anderson,i wouldnt say he's proven he'sa better fighter than smith but i reckon he's a tougher,more durable guy who probably hits harder.

jizzle wrote:Coldwell is coming across as a right amateur....still no news on venue, prices etc etc...clown bid

How about we have a whip-round to help him stump up the £300,000.

lefty wrote:

crusader wrote:

lefty wrote: groves is a more talented fighter than macca though.Speed wise,haye was alot quicker than mac whereas these two there wont be much difference im pretty sure.

Macca was a world class fighter in his prime. I don't know what you are basing your first sentence on.

And please people, Anderson has done nothing to suggest he is just as good or better than Paul Smith.

Degale wins this one by a wide margin on points or a late stoppage.

I was comparing them in the way others were,there isnt a big speed difference between groves and degale like there was enzo and haye.Regarding anderson,i wouldnt say he's proven he'sa better fighter than smith but i reckon he's a tougher,more durable guy who probably hits harder.

He is tougher,more durable and hits harder than Smith? God knows how you have come to this conclusion,Lefty.Did you watch his fight anainst Groves?

mickey1975 wrote:

lefty wrote:

crusader wrote: Macca was a world class fighter in his prime. I don't know what you are basing your first sentence on.

And please people, Anderson has done nothing to suggest he is just as good or better than Paul Smith.

Degale wins this one by a wide margin on points or a late stoppage.

I was comparing them in the way others were,there isnt a big speed difference between groves and degale like there was enzo and haye.Regarding anderson,i wouldnt say he's proven he'sa better fighter than smith but i reckon he's a tougher,more durable guy who probably hits harder.

He is tougher,more durable and hits harder than Smith? God knows how you have come to this conclusion,Lefty.Did you watch his fight anainst Groves?

Yes whats your point?!

Well,i would have thought you would have noticed Anderson crumbling after a few bodyshots.If you also saw Smith-DeGale you would have seen Smith take a good hiding and then protest to the ref when he waved it off.I have nothing against Anderson by the way.just think Smith gets a raw deal on here.Anderson's record just does not compare at this stage.

mickey1975 wrote:Well,i would have thought you would have noticed Anderson crumbling after a few bodyshots.If you also saw Smith-DeGale you would have seen Smith take a good hiding and then protest to the ref when he waved it off.I have nothing against Anderson by the way.just think Smith gets a raw deal on here.Anderson's record just does not compare at this stage.

Well i think groves is a bigger puncher than degale in all honesty.Also there was alot of shots that anderson absorbed against groves that i really dont think smith would of stood upto.Im talking head shots here.

I would have picked Groves if DeGale didn't fight and treat Paul Smith the way he did. As soon as DeGale stopped Smith, I changed my mind because DeGale showed in that fight that he is definitely going to be a World Class fighter and he is going to beat Groves. I personally would prefer seeing Groves win it but he won't.

I edged Degale over Groves back when they were on a more even level, I'd say my opinion of Groves hasn't slipped, if anything he's shown a few required qualities that aren't usually exposed so early in a prospect's career. He's of plucky stock, I'd all but written him off against Anderson and he just knuckled down and found a way to win despite massive adversity. That gain is sort of cancelled out by the fact that he needed to draw on those qualities in the first place at this stage of his career.

I'm still of the opinion that Degale's a bit special and would likely be a little too much, it's not a given though, Groves isn't 'there for the taking' and the job will require a world class performance from Degale.

I'd have liked to see this happen a little further down the line personally, I'm not complaining though, fights between relatively untested, touted prospects who aren't quite the finished article generally produce explosive fights, sometimes shockingly so.

Can't wait for this one, I'll be shouting for Groves, but I'll be placing a shady bet on Degale.

i will be shocked if groves wins this one, i think this could be an easy night for degale going by groves defence in his last few fights. look forward to it happening, but imo theres only one winner !

watson748 wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

watson748 wrote: Groves is way better than UK level in both the skill and power department.

i am not sure about this, at all. as far as I can see groves proven displays of skill so far rest upon his carrying his hands quite low and trying to have some kind of slick style.

but bearing in mind that Anderson- who himself is not proven to be british level- could land on Groves easily, I am not sure how this skill of Groves has been established. I mean, at least if we count 'not getting hit really easily in the face' as part of boxing skill, and if, as you say, the levels each have fought at is a central part of this argument- if those things are true, Anderson bouncing punches off Groves' head for fun doesn't exactly speak well of Groves' skill. not at all IMO. sub-british level fighter punches you in the face with ease = not defensively skillful, IMO

in my opinion Groves is one of those fighters that, stylistically, because he has some traits of skillful fighters, may tend to be confused with a skillful fighter. groves got out of jail against Anderson because he hit harder, and because Anderson was blowing like an ashmatic marathon runner every time he took a bodyshot.

There are many skills that make a complete boxer and few boxers (even at world class) have them all. Groves has better than UK level power and offensive skills imo. My judgement has been made from him KO'ing tough guys that hadn't been stopped before and in the timely fashion he brought about their demise. He is lacking in defensive skills as you point out and I fully concur that his daft low slung hands are not a good idea unless you have Naz type reflexes. He doesn't. But he is young and will possibly have learned an important lesson from that Anderson fight. He could have also just had an off night as many boxers do. However, that is not to say that his power and attack alone couldn't or wouldn't be enough to destroy DeGales untested chin or the best the UK or Europe has to offer. Stranger things have happened in boxing and styles make fights. I pointed out in my previous post some examples of so-called slick fighters with masses of speed and skill being stopped dead in their tracks with a hammer blow from less agile and supposedly less skillful fighters.

It is also important that we remember that DeGale has many flaws. One important flaw being that he still throws many incorrect punches and hes been warned about this many times by various refs. He has gotten away with this on the tomato cans he has fought up til now but when hes fighting a live attacking fighter that could seriously KO him at any second with a single punch, hes going to have to get everything right first time.

Like I said, I am not especially favouring one fighter over another here, I'm just pointing out that there are too many flaws on both sides for me to be confident in predicting that one of them in particular is going to easily win. I just think that many people are getting lost in the hype of skillful promotion and matchmaking in order to make their fighter look good, rather than learning their trade by being matched against tough fighters where they are getting pushed hard all the time and not looking fantastic.

fair enough, I agree Degale has flaws, I have pointed them out myself on several occasions.

still think you're over-rating Groves's skill a bit, but we will, I hope, see......

lets say i have this as around a 60/40 fight in degale's favour, and my guess is you may have it closer than that.

mickey1975 wrote:Well,i would have thought you would have noticed Anderson crumbling after a few bodyshots.If you also saw Smith-DeGale you would have seen Smith take a good hiding and then protest to the ref when he waved it off.I have nothing against Anderson by the way.just think Smith gets a raw deal on here.Anderson's record just does not compare at this stage.

lefty- big punches are one thing

hitting people with shots they don't see is another. Degale does this in a way that few 168lbers can, as he is so quick.

THEBUTCH wrote:I still make DeGale a favourite, but the more I think of it a win over Kenny Anderson is probably better and harder to achieve than a win over Paul Smith, so for me Groves is coming in with better credentials.

I think DeGale would probably have dismantled Anderson a lot more easier than Groves managed.

Comparing their two big wins: DeGale managed to get his win over a far more experienced and battle hardened fighter with relative ease, while Groves was on the verge of going out, fighting with a wild sense of desperation, and eventually getting the win over a fighter who ran out of steam and ambition. He showed great heart and a decent punch, but they were the only positives going for him that night.

jBacca wrote:Haye-Macca resemblance is bob on.

Groves with his non-existent defence will be hurt and swamped by Degale very early.

I'll give the soulless ginger 3 rounds at most.

spot on son. it will be embarassing for groves and hayemaker IMO. degale is world class, groves is not

Groves has beaten the better men.

He destroyed Paul Samuels in only his third fight. Adamu and Anderson were no mugs.
Smith is the biggest scalp, no doubt, and DeGale looked terrific that night.
...but Groves is slicker, younger, faster and punches harder than anyone DeGale has beaten. He will give Chunky problems nobody else has, and vice versa of course.
A real 50/50 match-up for me, but I'm leaning towards Groves, as I have since they made their debuts in 2008/9.

DeGale has been progressing at a much quicker rate. Was impressed by Groves against Adamu (although Adamu was sloppy) but since I don't believe he's shown improvement, perhaps getting more careless. His opposition may be slightly harder, but I think he makes them look better a lot of the time. I imagine he'd have made Dilks look a much tougher opponent than Chunky did, and Smith too. Too open, and DeGale is too quick.