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Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 29 Sep 2012, 18:45
by Ambling Alp
Some more guys you could make a decent argument for:

Dave Holly
Marty Servo
Mike McTigue
Marvin Johnson
Kuniaki Shibata

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 29 Sep 2012, 18:57
by Rover
No way for Johnson.
He had three reigns as a beltholder and a whopping one successful defense.
He lost to most top guys he fought (Mustafa, Saad twice, Spinks).
He beat Parlov, a past-prime Galindez and a young Williams.
I'd be stunned if he makes it in.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 29 Sep 2012, 19:42
by Seamus
Some guys who have good arguments are

Memphis Pal Moore
Petey Sarron
Lockport Jimmy Duffy
Jimmy Leto
Wesley Ramey
Charley White
Paddy DeMarco
Willie Joyce

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 29 Sep 2012, 21:38
by kal.majeed
OK – looks like you folks did a lot of research (didn’t think anyone knew those names – lol).

I’ll take it one at a time.

Dave Holly: Multi-division marvel (131 bouts); Great battles with Gans, Langford, Blackburn (both brothers), Walcott, Dixie Kid, etc; first stopped by another multi-division marvel Sailor Burke (59 bouts), who battles WW’s-HW’s such as Papke, Sullivan, Moha, Maher, Johnson and who is stopped by Willie Lewis then Kid Henry (who is the first to stop the underrated terror Willie ‘KO’ Brennan); Henry is first stopped by the prolific fighting machine Jeff Smith (link below):

http://www.harrygreb.com/jefffsmithybiopage.html

Now, Jeff Smith is a name to add (don’t know how I forgot that one)?!?!?!?!?

It’s important to remember that boxing (in the first half and most specifically, the first quarter of the 20th century) can be compared to NFL football (prior to the playoff system – about the 1950s and earlier); only the top team from the East and the top team from the West make it to the Championship Game; hence, the regular season IS ‘playoff football’ and virtually every game is a must win.

In the similar time period (in boxing), there is only one (undisputed world champion) per division in the major ‘divisions’; hence, virtually every bout (among top contenders) are ‘championship’ caliber bouts; stats (for that period) to focus upon would be total bouts, wins, stoppage wins and stoppage losses (and of course, caliber of opponents fought/defeated).

The system I design will not necessarily work or apply for boxers from that period (O’Dowd being the one of the exceptions) such as Jeff Smith.

Now, I’ll try to keep it brief.

Marty Servo: In the World Boxing Hall of Fame; tough battles with Robinson but faded too quickly and was first stopped by the overrated/overprotected Graziano.

Mike McTigue: World LHW champion; 172 bouts, 77 wins, 52 KO’s and stopped 9 times (most toward the end of his career); great battles with Greb, Smith, Gans, Bogash, Loughran, Siki, Stribling, Walker, Flowers, Berlenbach; not ‘polished’ enough to get my vote (but a good ‘nominee’).

Marvin Johnson: In the World Boxing Hall of Fame; 3-time world LHW champion; twice stopped by Saad Muhammad and once by Mustafa Muhammad, Spinks and Stewart; stops Galindez, Davis and Stewart; again, not ‘polished’ enough to get my vote (but a good ‘nominee’).

Kuniaki Shibata; 2-division and 3-time world champion; 6 successful world title defenses; first to stop Saldivar but with 5 stoppage losses - not ‘polished’ enough to get my vote (but a good ‘nominee’).

Memphis Pal Moore (in the IBHOF).

Petey Sarron; multi-division wonder; 152 bouts, 100 wins, 24 KO’s and stopped only once (by Henry Armstrong); twice defeats the smaller Memphis Pal Moore, Benny Bass and great battles with Freddie Miller (for the world FW title) – he is to be added on the list – another one I forgot.

Lockport Jimmy Duffy; 146 bouts, 92 wins, 22 KO’s and stopped 5 times; great wins over Britton, White, Welsh, Dundee, Lewis, Downey; if he had more KO wins or fewer KO by losses – I like to see these numbers at least 10 to 1 – I would vote for him (but a good ‘nominee’).

Jimmy Leto; 145 bouts, 111 wins, 33 KO’s and stopped 3 times; great wins over Jadick, Battalino, Zivic, Cocoa Kid, Bass, Jackson and Burley; second stoppage loss is a come from behind KO by the great German/European WW titlist Gustav Eder (162 bouts, 121 wins, 59 KO’s with only 1 stoppage loss) – Eder is part of a great group of European boxers along with Gustave Roth (137 bouts, 113 wins, 25 KO’s and only 2 stoppage losses), Karel Sys (143 bouts, 117 wins, 58 KO’s and only 2 stoppage losses), Olle Tandberg (30 bouts, 23 wins, 11 KO’s and only 1 stoppage loss) and Jupp Besselmann (117 bouts, 98 wins, 58 KO’s and only 2 stoppage losses); hence, to take one will require you to possibly take them all.

Impressive resume (for Wesley Ramey – below) but again, the KO to KO by ratio is far too low – even though he avenges (two?) of them.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Wesley_Ramey

Charley White (resume below) should seriously be considered!

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Charl ... tweight%29

Paddy DeMarco; World LW champion (wins 75 of his 104 bouts) but with only 8 KO’s and 7 stoppage losses, just can’t vote for him; has 26 overall losses (more than triple his KO wins – this is an indication of a weak inside fighter) – good ‘nominee’ though.

Willie Joyce (in my book; hence, no comment for now).

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 29 Sep 2012, 22:57
by Seamus
Can't believe I missed Memphis Pal Moore being inducted into the IBHOF.

Some others

Frankie Burns
Del Flanagan

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 30 Sep 2012, 05:53
by kal.majeed
Frankie Burns: Multi-division wonder; 186 bouts, 137 wins, 29 KO’s and stopped only once (by Johnny Kilbane); only boxer to ever stop 2-time world BW champion Pete Herman; great battles with Goldman, Coulon, Digger Stanley (another ‘nominee’ along with Jimmy Walsh and Al Delmont), Kid Williams, Joe Lynch and Memphis Pal Moore – along with Stanley, Walsh and Delmont will be added to the NEW (BONUS II) list.

Del Flanagan (along with brother Glen) are both inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame; apparent historic ‘counterparts’ of the Gibbons brothers (Mike and Tommy) but not nearly as ‘polished’.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 02 Oct 2012, 11:39
by Seamus
A few more guys an argument could be made for

Carl Tremaine
Bert Lytell
Tiger Jack Fox (good record, but came up well short in his shot at the world title)
Harlem Tommy Murphy

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 02 Oct 2012, 13:23
by kal.majeed
OK – one at a time (and I will keep it brief as I am still working on my site).

Carl Tremaine: Canadian BW/FW; 112 bouts, 77 wins, 18 KO’s and 3 stoppage losses (first stoppage loss is to future Marciano trainer Goldman and the other 2 are near the end of his career); great battles with Memphis Pal Moore and Joe Burman (who is part of a trio of greats along with Charles Ledoux and Eddie Campi); Tremaine also has a single battle with Rosey Stoy (who battles with Bud Taylor, Eddie Shea and Orient 3-division titlist Johnny Hill).

Aside from Memphis Pal Moore and Bud Taylor (who are both in the IBHOF but Taylor’s page here is not updated), Burman, Ledoux, Campi, Stoy, Shea and Hill (also Tremaine) are certainly caliber enough for the World Boxing Hall of Fame but none of them stand out enough (from each other and in their time/divisions) to get my vote for the IBHOF.

Note: The fact that some boxers from that time/divisions are in the IBHOF does not necessarily infer that this new group should be in there as well (as far too many in either Hall should not be there) – but that is for another thread.

Bert Lytell; 102 bouts, 71 wins, 24 KO’s and only 1 stoppage loss (on cuts that he avenges); tough battle(s) with LaMotta, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Burley and Moore; almost the exact same scenario as above – a definite vote for the World Boxing Hall of Fame but not the IBHOF (even though some names mentioned are there that possibly should not be there).

Tiger Jack Fox; 180 bouts, 140 wins, 89 KO’s and 9 stoppage losses; again, similar scenario, Fox is in the World Boxing Hall of Fame but just not enough of a standout for the IBHOF (even with those impressive wins over future world HW champion Jersey Joe Walcott).

Harlem Tommy Murphy; 143 bouts, 87 wins, 26 KO’s and 3 stoppage losses (the first to Terry McGovern); tough battle(s) with Abe Attell, Young Corbett II, Loughrey, McFarland, Moran, Glover, Wolgast, Chaney, etc.; stops a much older Dixon and Benny Yanger; sounding like a broken record but almost a definite World Boxing Hall of Famer but not IBHOF.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 03 Oct 2012, 21:34
by SaadOffTheDeck
Ambling Alp wrote:
Rover wrote:Another example of a very competitive (and great) fight with a clear winner: Frazier/Ali I.
Fighters such as Camacho, Holyfield, De la Hoya etc. are no brainers.
What puts Camacho in that category? He had a solid start to his career. After Rosario he pretty much fought stiffs, way past it legends or took a vicious beating. Definite no for me.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 03 Oct 2012, 21:54
by Rover
No on Camacho.
Won his SFW title in August 83; gave up his LW title after Boza.
He had two quality wins---Ramirez and Rosario.
Aside from that...
Limon: past-prime.
Boza: past-prime (and above weight).
Mancini: Past prime (and above weight).
Split two fights with Haugen, who was past prime and above weight.
And of course there's Paz.
He was one of the best fighters from 85-86. (He basically took 84 off.)

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 04 Oct 2012, 06:02
by kal.majeed
Hector Camacho: 30-year career; SFW-MW; 3-division and 4-time world champion (with 5 successful world title defenses); 88 bouts, 79 wins, 38 KO's and never stopped; great battles with Ramirez, Rosario, Mancini, Pazienza and Haugen; also defeats the much older Duran and is the only boxer to stop the much older, inactive Ray Leonard; no key first defeats/stoppages of any high caliber opponents (in their prime) unless you count (Rafael Lopez, Louis Loy, Melvin Paul, Greg Coverson, Irleis Perez, Rafael Williams, Louis Burke and Gary Kirkland) - and I don't; a definite World Boxing Hall of Famer but unless it's a weak year (and there should be no reason for that with the names listed/mentioned within this thread), Camacho is a reasonable 'nominee' for the IBHOF but not an 'inductee'.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 04 Oct 2012, 06:46
by Rover
kal.majeed wrote:Hector Camacho: 30-year career; SFW-MW; 3-division and 4-time world champion (with 5 successful world title defenses); 88 bouts, 79 wins, 38 KO's and never stopped; great battles with Ramirez, Rosario, Mancini, Pazienza and Haugen; also defeats the much older Duran and is the only boxer to stop the much older, inactive Ray Leonard; no key first defeats/stoppages of any high caliber opponents (in their prime) unless you count (Rafael Lopez, Louis Loy, Melvin Paul, Greg Coverson, Irleis Perez, Rafael Williams, Louis Burke and Gary Kirkland) - and I don't; a definite World Boxing Hall of Famer but unless it's a weak year (and there should be no reason for that with the names listed/mentioned within this thread), Camacho is a reasonable 'nominee' for the IBHOF but not an 'inductee'.
Another guy who fought waaaaaay too long.
Should've retired after the DLH loss; he was already 35 by then and clearly couldn't compete at the top level.
As much of a headcase as he was, he had heart, though. Took beatings from JCC, Tito and Oscar and made it the distance each time.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 04 Oct 2012, 07:21
by kal.majeed
Well, he was never stopped; hence, at least he did not completely embarrass himself or get seriously hurt.

On a side note, I would sooner vote for Nel Tarleton and Al Foreman (links below; for the World Boxing Hall of Fame) before I would vote for Camacho.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Human:9912

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Al_Foreman

P.S.

Maybe, they have been watching (lol):

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/84 ... s-13-class


P.P.S.

This should not be necessary but some “experts” seem to believe that Arturo Gatti is deserving for the IBHOF(??).

Arturo Gatti; FW-WW; 2-division world champion (with 4 successful world title defenses); 49 bouts, 40 wins, 31 KO’s with 5 stoppage losses (the first is a cut stoppage loss to Angel Manfredy, who is first stopped, at championship level, by Floyd Mayweather Jr.); after his first stoppage loss, Gatti then loses back-to-back decisions to Ivan Robinson, who is first defeated by Philip Holiday (who is first defeated by Shane Mosley); after a stoppage loss to De La Hoya (who is first stopped by Bernard Hopkins – who is also the first to stop Felix Trinidad), Gatti engages in a much heralded trilogy with his future trainer and six years older Micky Ward (only stoppage loss is on cuts to Vince Phillips – the first to defeat/stop Kostya Tszyu and who is first stopped, at championship level, by Ike Quartey).

Of the above mentioned names (not in the IBHOF), the only reasonably clear choices are Bernard, Felix, Ike, Shane, Oscar and Floyd.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 13:41
by Ambling Alp
I think Camacho is one of those classic examples of people not being able to give credit to someone they don't like. There wasn't much to like about him, but he was a helluva a fighter. He had a lof of quality wins. He basically took on almost anyone at the top over a long period of time.
Some of his wins were against guys that may not have been at their very best, but they weren't shot.

Limon was only 29 years old and had a great fight against Chacon right before he took on Camacho. No evidence whatsoever before the fight that he was shot. Camacho beat him easily and suddenly Limon was shot. Howard Davis had a lot left when Camacho beat him.
Boza Edwards was still a very good fighter when Camacho beat him.
Not sure how Haugen can be past his prime. He was only 30 and only had 30 fights before he fought Camacho.


Rosario was in his prime has been in the Hall of Fame for a long time and Camacho beat him.

As others mentioned, Camacho also had several wins over not great but solid fighters.

This should be an absolute no-brainer. He could be annoying. He was also a great fighter.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 13:45
by SaadOffTheDeck
Who said they didn't like him? Why do you have to make that assumption? I looked at the same thing you did and Limon,Davis,Boza, Ramirez & Rosario don't scream definitive HOFer to me. You have him in far greater company than he belongs. If he got in one day it wouldn't be an insult like Gatti. But a no brainer? I don't see that at all.

He was a great Jr Lightweight, that was a small portion of his career. Great fighter overall I just don't see.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 14:23
by kal.majeed
I can only speak for myself - I don't hate or strongly dislike any boxer - just feel that some are overrated (or over hyped such as De La Hoya).

That aside (remember, this is about potential candidates for the IBHOF), Camacho (who is a similar 'caliber' as 2-division world titlist Meldrick Taylor - 1984 Olympic FW gold medalist) would be a 'no brainer' for the IBHOF if he has (additionally) the two key wins that Taylor has (the first to stop 2-division world champion Buddy McGirt and the first to defeat the never stopped world WW champion Aaron Davis).

Add those two wins to Camacho's resume (along with a better performance against Chavez) and he would get my support (and defense) for the IBHOF.....

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 15:01
by Bundana
kal.majeed wrote:OK – one at a time (and I will keep it brief as I am still working on my site).

Carl Tremaine: Canadian BW/FW; 112 bouts, 77 wins, 18 KO’s and 3 stoppage losses (first stoppage loss is to future Marciano trainer Goldman and the other 2 are near the end of his career); great battles with Memphis Pal Moore and Joe Burman (who is part of a trio of greats along with Charles Ledoux and Eddie Campi); Tremaine also has a single battle with Rosey Stoy (who battles with Bud Taylor, Eddie Shea and Orient 3-division titlist Johnny Hill).

Aside from Memphis Pal Moore and Bud Taylor (who are both in the IBHOF but Taylor’s page here is not updated), Burman, Ledoux, Campi, Stoy, Shea and Hill (also Tremaine) are certainly caliber enough for the World Boxing Hall of Fame but none of them stand out enough (from each other and in their time/divisions) to get my vote for the IBHOF.

Note: The fact that some boxers from that time/divisions are in the IBHOF does not necessarily infer that this new group should be in there as well (as far too many in either Hall should not be there) – but that is for another thread.

Bert Lytell; 102 bouts, 71 wins, 24 KO’s and only 1 stoppage loss (on cuts that he avenges); tough battle(s) with LaMotta, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Burley and Moore; almost the exact same scenario as above – a definite vote for the World Boxing Hall of Fame but not the IBHOF (even though some names mentioned are there that possibly should not be there).

Tiger Jack Fox; 180 bouts, 140 wins, 89 KO’s and 9 stoppage losses; again, similar scenario, Fox is in the World Boxing Hall of Fame but just not enough of a standout for the IBHOF (even with those impressive wins over future world HW champion Jersey Joe Walcott).

Harlem Tommy Murphy; 143 bouts, 87 wins, 26 KO’s and 3 stoppage losses (the first to Terry McGovern); tough battle(s) with Abe Attell, Young Corbett II, Loughrey, McFarland, Moran, Glover, Wolgast, Chaney, etc.; stops a much older Dixon and Benny Yanger; sounding like a broken record but almost a definite World Boxing Hall of Famer but not IBHOF.
Just curious:

You mention several fighters here, who you feel probably will make it into the World Boxing Hall of Fame - but not the IBHOF. But is the former still "open for business", so to speak? I don't believe, they have had any new inductees since 2010!

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 15:12
by kal.majeed
Read carefully - I say that they are 'caliber' or good enough for the World Boxing Hall of Fame - whether or not they will (or why no inductees last year) - I do not know or can not say......

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 16:31
by Rover
Ambling Alp wrote:I think Camacho is one of those classic examples of people not being able to give credit to someone they don't like. There wasn't much to like about him, but he was a helluva a fighter. He had a lof of quality wins. He basically took on almost anyone at the top over a long period of time.
Some of his wins were against guys that may not have been at their very best, but they weren't shot.

Limon was only 29 years old and had a great fight against Chacon right before he took on Camacho. No evidence whatsoever before the fight that he was shot. Camacho beat him easily and suddenly Limon was shot. Howard Davis had a lot left when Camacho beat him.
Boza Edwards was still a very good fighter when Camacho beat him.
Not sure how Haugen can be past his prime. He was only 30 and only had 30 fights before he fought Camacho.


Rosario was in his prime has been in the Hall of Fame for a long time and Camacho beat him.

As others mentioned, Camacho also had several wins over not great but solid fighters.

This should be an absolute no-brainer. He could be annoying. He was also a great fighter.
Haugen wasn't that good even in his prime. Possibly should've lost to Miguel Santana (from what I've read--though I never saw it). And Haugen's prime was at lightweight; that's what I was referring to.
Limon had been in tons of wars and was never a great fighter to begin with, but let's just say Camacho gets full credit for that win.
Boza never accomplished anything of note at lightweight; he was noted at super feather.
So that leaves us with...
Ramirez
Rosario
Limon
(I don't think Rosario belongs in the HOF, either, BTW.)As for Davis, he lost every time he stepped up (Camacho, Watt, Rosario--and yes, I think Chapo won that 114-112).

I don't like Floyd, but he clearly belongs. Macho doesn't.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 17:10
by kal.majeed
My attempt to 'shift gears':

Think FW star/champion Naseem Hamed is an original - think again!?!?!

Click on the link below to read about his 'historic counterpart' - and a strong candidate for the IBHOF (just about everyone misses this one).....

http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=3320

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 19:20
by SaadOffTheDeck
I assumed everyone knew I was talking about Duran,Leoanrd & mancini for the way past it names on his resume. A lot of people thought Ray beat him, I thought Duran won their first fight.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 20:11
by kal.majeed
A rematch with Rosario would have made more sense (but I guess that's the point); Leonard-Duran I is overshadowed by the rematch(es).

Anyway, let me try another one that is vastly overlooked: Young Peter Jackson; WW-HH; 149 bouts, 82 wins (28 draws), 58 KO's and 2 stoppage losses (both avenged); links below for other resume details.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/ypjack.htm

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... r&pageID=1

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 05 Oct 2012, 21:50
by Rover
Leonard/Duran III did not overshadow the first fight.

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 06 Oct 2012, 05:54
by kal.majeed
Look carefully how I wrote that - acknowledged both rematches but try to emphasize that the second bout in the series is the one that 'overshadows'. I think we are getting off topic and I am going to stop commenting on matters that do not pertain to this thread (please, no one reply to this)......

Re: Hall of Fame Nominees

Posted: 06 Oct 2012, 06:33
by SaadOffTheDeck
kal.majeed wrote:(please, no one reply to this)......
Why?