BoxRec

MachoMan09 wrote:Damian, with that 'woe is me' emotive hyperbole you sound like a seasoned promoter. Boxing promoters: altruistic and benevolent to the bone.

damianhucker1 wrote:Just to stick my pennies worth in to those slating promoters ....

I know its not the same with me being an "unlicensed " promoter but i still feel i can offer a point of view in opposition .


Its seen as if Promoters are all there to just make money and that they do make a fair bit of it ...

Well that in itself is garbage , Do people not realise just how hard it is to make money in boxing ? wether it be as a promoter , a boxer or a trainer , its not an easy living .

With a promoter they are in theory (when its all done ligit ) the only person not guaranteed to be paid at the end of a show , yet they put up the financial risk , its their money used to make a show and when things dont work out its them who lose money .

Put it this way ... without promoters who exactly is going to put on the shows and thus pay the boxers and everyone else who needs paying for their work from the drs and the mc down to the whip or the lady at the printing shop who designed the posters ??
There's a difference between small hall promoters though and the big boys.

get rid of promoters and theirs no shows , so someone would need to replace them and put shows on , might be managers or the boxers themselves , but wheres the money coming from ? all they then do is take on the role of the promoter themselves .

Simply put boxing cannot survive without promoters .

We dont always agree with them , when things are in the public domain etc , but they dont squeze the life out of boxing in the way some think , if anything they breath life into it .

And way i see it is those at the top who are making money were at one point at the bottom struggling to make ends meet like the rest of the small hall promoters , except for eddie Hearn the rest have earned the right to earn money by working hard , no different to if you become top of the field in any other profession , you work hard and take a few risks then if you get to the top you earned that right to make a good living .

Its just something that irritates me , even i get people saying things like " i bet your minted doing the boxing " i really wish i was but im not , and its easier to make money from unlicensed than in the pro game , so from my point of view i can appreciate how hard it is .


At least a musician is perfectly capable of booking themselves a gig and earning their money without a promoter taking a cut , in boxing that simply isnt the case unless your at the top as it would be destined for bankruptcy

damianhucker1 wrote:Just to stick my pennies worth in to those slating promoters ....

I know its not the same with me being an "unlicensed " promoter but i still feel i can offer a point of view in opposition .


Its seen as if Promoters are all there to just make money and that they do make a fair bit of it ...

Well that in itself is garbage , Do people not realise just how hard it is to make money in boxing ? wether it be as a promoter , a boxer or a trainer , its not an easy living .

With a promoter they are in theory (when its all done ligit ) the only person not guaranteed to be paid at the end of a show , yet they put up the financial risk , its their money used to make a show and when things dont work out its them who lose money .

Put it this way ... without promoters who exactly is going to put on the shows and thus pay the boxers and everyone else who needs paying for their work from the drs and the mc down to the whip or the lady at the printing shop who designed the posters ??


get rid of promoters and theirs no shows , so someone would need to replace them and put shows on , might be managers or the boxers themselves , but wheres the money coming from ? all they then do is take on the role of the promoter themselves .

Simply put boxing cannot survive without promoters .

We dont always agree with them , when things are in the public domain etc , but they dont squeze the life out of boxing in the way some think , if anything they breath life into it .

And way i see it is those at the top who are making money were at one point at the bottom struggling to make ends meet like the rest of the small hall promoters , except for eddie Hearn the rest have earned the right to earn money by working hard , no different to if you become top of the field in any other profession , you work hard and take a few risks then if you get to the top you earned that right to make a good living .

Its just something that irritates me , even i get people saying things like " i bet your minted doing the boxing " i really wish i was but im not , and its easier to make money from unlicensed than in the pro game , so from my point of view i can appreciate how hard it is .


At least a musician is perfectly capable of booking themselves a gig and earning their money without a promoter taking a cut , in boxing that simply isnt the case unless your at the top as it would be destined for bankruptcy

goldenears wrote:

damianhucker1 wrote:Just to stick my pennies worth in to those slating promoters ....

I know its not the same with me being an "unlicensed " promoter but i still feel i can offer a point of view in opposition .


Its seen as if Promoters are all there to just make money and that they do make a fair bit of it ...

Well that in itself is garbage , Do people not realise just how hard it is to make money in boxing ? wether it be as a promoter , a boxer or a trainer , its not an easy living .

With a promoter they are in theory (when its all done ligit ) the only person not guaranteed to be paid at the end of a show , yet they put up the financial risk , its their money used to make a show and when things dont work out its them who lose money .

Put it this way ... without promoters who exactly is going to put on the shows and thus pay the boxers and everyone else who needs paying for their work from the drs and the mc down to the whip or the lady at the printing shop who designed the posters ??


get rid of promoters and theirs no shows , so someone would need to replace them and put shows on , might be managers or the boxers themselves , but wheres the money coming from ? all they then do is take on the role of the promoter themselves .

Simply put boxing cannot survive without promoters .

We dont always agree with them , when things are in the public domain etc , but they dont squeze the life out of boxing in the way some think , if anything they breath life into it .

And way i see it is those at the top who are making money were at one point at the bottom struggling to make ends meet like the rest of the small hall promoters , except for eddie Hearn the rest have earned the right to earn money by working hard , no different to if you become top of the field in any other profession , you work hard and take a few risks then if you get to the top you earned that right to make a good living .

Its just something that irritates me , even i get people saying things like " i bet your minted doing the boxing " i really wish i was but im not , and its easier to make money from unlicensed than in the pro game , so from my point of view i can appreciate how hard it is .


At least a musician is perfectly capable of booking themselves a gig and earning their money without a promoter taking a cut , in boxing that simply isnt the case unless your at the top as it would be destined for bankruptcy

This thread is primarily about Matchroom and some extent FW.

In the case of EH and MR, the bottom line is, they aren't doing what you're talking about - they're underwritten by Sky Sports and taking relatively low risk for guaranteed rewards. To a large extent they've earned that position through years of involvement in other sports (and boxing) - but to lump Fast Eddie in with people like Hard Knocks, Coldwell and the many people who give blood, sweat and tears to this sport for a pittance is just pointless.

The show in Bolton at the weekend had maybe 3000 people at it - without Sky money does that show even go ahead? Of course not, and I'm assuming that Matchroom made their built in % despite not even selling the show particularly well tickets wise.

They are in a position different to anyone else, and that's kind of the point. There's people who give their life to a very unforgiving sport that involves possibly harder work than any other sport for very very little rewards. As you say, there are promoters who are literally putting their arse on the line every time they run a promotion and if tickets don't sell, they are screwed. Not so with Matchroom.

Given that, for me, the smugness and superior attitude is well out of place. Fighters of course have to go where the money and exposure is and have to believe that those people have their best interests at heart, but Matchroom barely hide the fact that the most important thing is Matchroom. They're businessmen. And in many ways, you can't argue with or question that, but you can question their attitude and arrogance about the position they've been handed by Sky.

Even FWP who I realise arent the most popular people here, the investment comes from within, rightly or wrongly, and whatever has been done, BN and FW aren't funded by Sky and given a platform.

The kind of promoter you are describing Damien is a Promoter in the traditional sense. Puts fights on - sells tickets - runs logistics and tries to make a business for everyone out of it.

In the modern day at the higher end, being promoter has become more than ever about what TV deal you have - and that's where the money is. Floyd / Canelo gate reciepts won't even pay 1/3 of Floyd's guaranteed purse for that fight and its the richest gate of all time.

If you've got a monopoly on TV and the money that comes with it - that's what gives you the real power.

Just to answer you on musicians - they cant just book a gig and play. Similarly, there are a whole load of logistics and people have to somehow be told about the gig to turn up and pay. Boxing promoters have a brutally hard job.

People with a TV budget and a few dates to fill and decent profit margins - not the same. Massive difference.

mickey1975 wrote:

MarkMcBurney wrote:All valid points; however Frank, Ricky Hatton and others had the chance to do what Matchroom now do for Sky before they gave them the contract - and they fucked it up. That isn't coincidence. Yes, the Sky deal is clearly a massive part of Matchroom Boxing's success but they aren't the first to have a go at putting boxing on Sky - but they've had the bigger audiences which convinced Sky to form a business partnership with them.

The fact is the shows put on by Hatton Promotions & Warren weren't good enough. They had their chance.

Matchroom in the 00's put on some terrible shows on Sky. The only reason they are in such a position of strength is their hugely successful contribution to Sky Sports in other areas.

goldenears wrote:

damianhucker1 wrote:Just to stick my pennies worth in to those slating promoters ....

I know its not the same with me being an "unlicensed " promoter but i still feel i can offer a point of view in opposition .


Its seen as if Promoters are all there to just make money and that they do make a fair bit of it ...

Well that in itself is garbage , Do people not realise just how hard it is to make money in boxing ? wether it be as a promoter , a boxer or a trainer , its not an easy living .

With a promoter they are in theory (when its all done ligit ) the only person not guaranteed to be paid at the end of a show , yet they put up the financial risk , its their money used to make a show and when things dont work out its them who lose money .

Put it this way ... without promoters who exactly is going to put on the shows and thus pay the boxers and everyone else who needs paying for their work from the drs and the mc down to the whip or the lady at the printing shop who designed the posters ??


get rid of promoters and theirs no shows , so someone would need to replace them and put shows on , might be managers or the boxers themselves , but wheres the money coming from ? all they then do is take on the role of the promoter themselves .

Simply put boxing cannot survive without promoters .

We dont always agree with them , when things are in the public domain etc , but they dont squeze the life out of boxing in the way some think , if anything they breath life into it .

And way i see it is those at the top who are making money were at one point at the bottom struggling to make ends meet like the rest of the small hall promoters , except for eddie Hearn the rest have earned the right to earn money by working hard , no different to if you become top of the field in any other profession , you work hard and take a few risks then if you get to the top you earned that right to make a good living .

Its just something that irritates me , even i get people saying things like " i bet your minted doing the boxing " i really wish i was but im not , and its easier to make money from unlicensed than in the pro game , so from my point of view i can appreciate how hard it is .


At least a musician is perfectly capable of booking themselves a gig and earning their money without a promoter taking a cut , in boxing that simply isnt the case unless your at the top as it would be destined for bankruptcy

This thread is primarily about Matchroom and some extent FW.

In the case of EH and MR, the bottom line is, they aren't doing what you're talking about - they're underwritten by Sky Sports and taking relatively low risk for guaranteed rewards. To a large extent they've earned that position through years of involvement in other sports (and boxing) - but to lump Fast Eddie in with people like Hard Knocks, Coldwell and the many people who give blood, sweat and tears to this sport for a pittance is just pointless.

The show in Bolton at the weekend had maybe 3000 people at it - without Sky money does that show even go ahead? Of course not, and I'm assuming that Matchroom made their built in % despite not even selling the show particularly well tickets wise.

They are in a position different to anyone else, and that's kind of the point. There's people who give their life to a very unforgiving sport that involves possibly harder work than any other sport for very very little rewards. As you say, there are promoters who are literally putting their arse on the line every time they run a promotion and if tickets don't sell, they are screwed. Not so with Matchroom.

Given that, for me, the smugness and superior attitude is well out of place. Fighters of course have to go where the money and exposure is and have to believe that those people have their best interests at heart, but Matchroom barely hide the fact that the most important thing is Matchroom. They're businessmen. And in many ways, you can't argue with or question that, but you can question their attitude and arrogance about the position they've been handed by Sky.

Even FWP who I realise arent the most popular people here, the investment comes from within, rightly or wrongly, and whatever has been done, BN and FW aren't funded by Sky and given a platform.

The kind of promoter you are describing Damien is a Promoter in the traditional sense. Puts fights on - sells tickets - runs logistics and tries to make a business for everyone out of it.

In the modern day at the higher end, being promoter has become more than ever about what TV deal you have - and that's where the money is. Floyd / Canelo gate reciepts won't even pay 1/3 of Floyd's guaranteed purse for that fight and its the richest gate of all time.

If you've got a monopoly on TV and the money that comes with it - that's what gives you the real power.

Just to answer you on musicians - they cant just book a gig and play. Similarly, there are a whole load of logistics and people have to somehow be told about the gig to turn up and pay. Boxing promoters have a brutally hard job.

People with a TV budget and a few dates to fill and decent profit margins - not the same. Massive difference.

damianhucker1 wrote:
the point about the musicians though ... i know several musicians and only the top guys have people managing them , many of the guys make bookings themselves , do the gig and get paid , with no management etc , in boxing terms that would be equivilent to small hall boxers having to arrange their own bouts / shows with no promotion , it just wouldnt be possible to do .

MachoMan09 wrote:

columbo wrote:Nice bit of flirting going on in this thread ;;-)

We've been waiting for you to come home with the poppers.

goldenears wrote:The Hearns have done a fantastic job with darts. Not going to deny it. But when it comes to boxing, their current standing is all down to the decision Sky made to allow a monopoly on their channel and basically funded it.

Eddie and Matchroom have used that position very smartly to their advantage to 'build' a stable, but the smugness, arrogance and general demeanour they portray would have you believe that they were some sort of promotional geniuses. Utter nonsense. They're just the people who happen to have the financial backing to guarantee shows, activity and relatively mainstream exposure.

Sky have been the 'kingmakers' in this current moment and there's no doubt that things will change again.

Personally I dislike the business model in boxing which allows promoters to such a visible role in the media, and most distressingly, make a ridiculous amount of money compared to the people who actually put their lives and bodies at risk in one of the toughest jobs anyone could choose to do.

The top US boxers starting their own promotion companies is not a coincidence. It simply allows them to examine figures and make sure that they understand every element of income and ensure that they're the ones getting properly paid and whilst the promoters earn, the balance is tipped further towards the deserving fighter when a fighter is properly represented and has the power to be able to get that involved in the dealmaking process.

Promoters in boxing use the age old excuse of how they 'built these fighters' but it's all down to controlling the exposure and the pursestrings - without the talent there'd be nothing to build.

In the business I come from (music) when a show is put on - you're presented the full figures for a show and then every single detail before you agree a split with a promoter - and the promoters' % is relatively tiny.

Now I realise boxing is totally different but the principle is ultimately the same - the FIGHTERS are the draw - from what I can gather - (and I may well be wrong here) - they are simply given a purse, which may seem like a decent pay day to them, but the promoter doesn't necessarily disclose their costs/earnings to the fighter and the promoters make far more money % wise than in other businesses.

Mayweather and co are changing that in America and people like GBP have had to learn to work with it, and again, from what I can gather, Haymon has applied a lot of his music business experience to his representation of fighters and getting them what THEY are worth - Top Rank seem to be a harder nut to crack and ALLEGEDLY the likes of Pacquiao whilst getting huge purses are still losing out in comparison to what they could get.

I've gone off point, but ultimately the way the Hearns' present themselves is like they're some sort of clean new look to boxing, but they're not. It's meet the new boss, same as the old boss and they both have the gift of the gab , flashing teeth and love the camera -

FW had a real point about the 'friend of the fighters' business and the absolute lack of humility that Eddie shows. It's transparent. Total fake. The same as in US boxing, our 2 main promoters are at each others throats and spending too much time trying to get one over the other and it's harming the sport in terms of great fights not getting made. But I realise that's nothing new in boxing.

If BH/EH were really the 'better men' etc, they wouldn't have responded with the stuff like "we had a chuckle", and the "chauffeur" comment. Not defending some of what FW says, but he is unashamedly old school , whereas the Hearns present this smug air of superiority that's not based in talent, but based in the fact that they happen to be the ones holding the cards in this 'cycle'.

I'm not saying BN will or won't take off, but if it does and things swing back to FWP in one way or another, it wouldn't be a major surprise, it's always been cyclical in boxing. One truly special fighter can change a huge amount - and I've yet to see Eddie actually build one.

His best fighters' groundwork was all done elsewhere - and the big fights that got made, for example in Carl's case were off the back of Carl and Mick's work in Super 6. After that, the Bute/Kessler fights pretty much made themselves - but for Hearns "in" at Sky. Scott Quigg is a superb fighter who Hearn was literally dismissing not so long ago and now he's going to reap the rewards of Hatton being stitched by Sky. Groves, Burns, Bellew etc - where was that groundwork done? And when did it become worthwhile for them to switch? When Matchroom gained the TV/funding advantage.

That's literally the advantage he has, and as I said at the beginning of this ramble, he's played it extremely well, but when someone is as smug and condescending as he so constantly is, it actually makes you want to see how he would respond if that particular rug got pulled and like FW he tried to stay in the boxing business without playing with "someone elses money". The likelihood is, he wouldn't.

And don't get me started on his overall matchmaking.

FW has taken a long, brutal road with BN and any boxing fan has to admit for a tenner a month it's good value. As a business model it's ballsy and who knows what the outcome will be, it's been a risk and he's having to ride choppy waters, and arguably that's cost him his place at the Sky table and allowed the Hearns to come in and do what they've done from that position.

IMHO they should pipe down and whilst I'm sure Eddie Hearn and Kugan C genuinely get on well, KC must see that he's being used to an extent for Eddie to hammer home his message and build his own 'brand'. He was working in sports marketing and that's what he's doing here - with himself. FW might not be his own best PR but this whole thing has become unsavoury - and just because FW wasn't slick and smarmy about it, doesn't mean he got "owned".

For me the whole system of boxing needs an overhaul, I don't think it can happen because, like football, it's too ingrained, but fighters are not looked after, particularly those further down the bills, when they make sacrifices and put everything on the line, whilst people like the Hearns are chauffered around and sit around parading their country manors.

Fake dignity is the worst kind.

dbf wrote:ifilm's output is starting to become a bit cringeworthy, especially the interviews with the Hearns. It's the Eddie and Kugan show.

Eddie Hearn always goes on about how 'Boxing is a fundamentally flawed business' and 'some of our shows lose money' and 'matchroom are successful in other sports and boxing is a hobby' - well with the number of fighters they have signed and the quality of some of their cards, those words might actually come back to bite them. Why invest so much in something that you yourself say is flawed.

The second the SKY deal is up, Matchroom will pull out of the sport. They've done it before and they will do it again. All this breath of fresh air irubbish is nonsense, its a dalliance for the Hearn's and a bit of PR for Eddie. He's everyones mate, he's getting the best for his 'clients' blah blah blah.
Has the stuff he has offered Sky any better than the stuff that Warren used to serve up? Not really.

If Matchroom are still in boxing in 3 years I would be surprised. If Kugan and ifilm are still in boxing in 3 years I would be surprised.

All the boxers then scratch their heads and either go back to Warren, Hennessey or GBP etc.

DMA1987 wrote:

dbf wrote:ifilm's output is starting to become a bit cringeworthy, especially the interviews with the Hearns. It's the Eddie and Kugan show.

Eddie Hearn always goes on about how 'Boxing is a fundamentally flawed business' and 'some of our shows lose money' and 'matchroom are successful in other sports and boxing is a hobby' - well with the number of fighters they have signed and the quality of some of their cards, those words might actually come back to bite them. Why invest so much in something that you yourself say is flawed.

The second the SKY deal is up, Matchroom will pull out of the sport. They've done it before and they will do it again. All this breath of fresh air irubbish is nonsense, its a dalliance for the Hearn's and a bit of PR for Eddie. He's everyones mate, he's getting the best for his 'clients' blah blah blah.
Has the stuff he has offered Sky any better than the stuff that Warren used to serve up? Not really.

If Matchroom are still in boxing in 3 years I would be surprised. If Kugan and ifilm are still in boxing in 3 years I would be surprised.

All the boxers then scratch their heads and either go back to Warren, Hennessey or GBP etc.

Why do Matchroom bother you so much? Why do you care if its a dalliance of his? So long as he is paying his fighters on time, getting his boxers title shots (Barker, Brook, Bellew, Quigg) will be 4 this year alone. Fine Brook was injured, for a year into the sport, its hardly bad. Plus you have the Rees and Purdy title fights I didn't mention. He makes sure all his young boxers fight all the time, yes its because he has the dates, but they are boxing regularly. Its hardly their fault SKY chose them.

dbf wrote:

DMA1987 wrote:
Why do Matchroom bother you so much? Why do you care if its a dalliance of his? So long as he is paying his fighters on time, getting his boxers title shots (Barker, Brook, Bellew, Quigg) will be 4 this year alone. Fine Brook was injured, for a year into the sport, its hardly bad. Plus you have the Rees and Purdy title fights I didn't mention. He makes sure all his young boxers fight all the time, yes its because he has the dates, but they are boxing regularly. Its hardly their fault SKY chose them.

It's not that I care so much about what Matchroom are doing its more the fact everyone is quick to jump on their bandwagon without looking at the bigger picture. Frank W gets too much stick in my opinion and Barry acting smug about their current situation does irritate me to a certain extent.

Your'e not wrong in what you are saying, he's doing what a promoter should do given his position, if Frank had the same deal with Sky it wouldn't much difference. I guess my point is, Matchroom and Eddie H aren't the saviours they are portrayed by some to be.

Time will tell how committed to the sport they are, Warren has stuck it out through good and bad, will Matchroom?

I understand you're point though, it was Sky's decision and Matchroom are doing what you expect someone in that position to do, plus I agree with the sentiment about paying fighters on time - very important.

zero wrote:Well, “allegedly” left Sky to maximize their income with PPV fights on BN it hasn't worked! Not Matchroom’s fault. The sooner people realise this the better.

Now that it’s gone practically tits up, all other promoters are now friends...

columbo wrote:

zero wrote:Well, “allegedly” left Sky to maximize their income with PPV fights on BN it hasn't worked! Not Matchroom’s fault. The sooner people realise this the better.

Now that it’s gone practically tits up, all other promoters are now friends...

PPV fights on BN?!

Wa1nuts wrote:?! In that logic then Sky is pay per view, cos you have to pay to view the channel??

zero wrote:

columbo wrote:

zero wrote:Well, “allegedly” left Sky to maximize their income with PPV fights on BN it hasn't worked! Not Matchroom’s fault. The sooner people realise this the better.

Now that it’s gone practically tits up, all other promoters are now friends...

PPV fights on BN?!

BN is a PPV channel that costs a £10 a month. Don't kid yourself that the plan wasn't to oversell fights at a premium rate.

goldenears wrote:The channel is a subscription channel and is decent value for armchair boxing fans; the PPV concept is generally a rip off given that we pay a subscription on top. Football, rugby or cricket fans would not have it.

zero wrote:Well, “allegedly” left Sky to maximize their income with PPV fights on BN it hasn't worked! Not Matchroom’s fault. The sooner people realise this the better.

Now that it’s gone practically tits up, all other promoters are now friends...