Thad Spencer 'Uncrowned Heavyweight Champion'

[klompton]

So if even a guy who holds him in a level esteem far higher than reality dictates (you) thinks he would lose to Ali then how can you justify the title of this thread?

Faster right hand than Ali... yeah right. Thad wasnt even faster than the version of Ali that was zapping George Foreman with lead like right hands in 1974 much less the 1966/1967 version.

[klompton]

You are using Howard Cosell quotes to add weight to argument? LOL.

Cosell stating that Floyd Patterson's camp wasnt interested in a fight with him is a big difference from Patterson ducking him and an even bigger difference from Ali ducking him AND a distance from here to the moon of Spencer being an uncrowned champion.

[loaded_gloves]

When I saw a Thad Spencer thread had somehow been dragged out four pages I immediately thought 'Duce', and knew exactly what the angle would be.

Duce, do you have nothing better to do with your life? It's frankly embarrassing that a grown man has spent so much of his time on Boxrec anonymously indulging in all these obsessive Ali conspiracy theories.

Duce/Mussolini, I'm pretty sure you'd be hideously embarrassed to have this high volume of Ali fetishism associated with your real name and face. Is that not a good reason to now grow up and move on?

[klompton]

Correct me uf Im wrong but hadnt it been 3 or 4 yrs since Jones beat anyone of note, lost his last fight, and was stopped in his next fight by a very green Joe Frazier? Im sure Ali was running scared...

[evrenb]

Correct me uf Im wrong but hadnt it been 3 or 4 yrs since Jones beat anyone of note, lost his last fight, and was stopped in his next fight by a very green Joe Frazier? Im sure Ali was running scared...

Thank god klomptons on here to bring some sense and reason to what is quite frankly gutter garbage reasoning...if your going by opponent comparison look how quarry gave a twelve round shallacking to.spencer...and ali handled quarry with ease...you have to admit il.duce that you are in a minority in your argument...only frazier lovers will help you....i am a frazier lover but i am not deluded...you however are a comedian...

[p4p1]

Talk about twisting facts

That may have been the order of what happened but I think most can agree that spencer had little to do with Ali not re-signing with LSG

[klompton]

I think we can all see how Doug Jones got rated off of wins over Chip Johnson and Cody Jones...


Harvey Jones had lost his last four bouts in a row. His last two bouts were six rounders. He had never defeated anyone of note and Jones was his last bout.

Chip Johnson had lost 3 of his last four (all by stoppage).

Your arguments for this are pathetic.

[klompton]

Just to be clear: Doug Jones needed to see if he still "had it" (so obviously there were questions about his ability at this stage of his career). So he takes on lower tier sparring partner level fighters, who between them had won one fight of their last eight. He beats them (which dear god he should have) and by defeating that hobbled version of Doug Jones this somehow shows that Thad Spencer was the uncrowned champion and that Ali was ducking him?

[klompton]

Oh ok I see now, Ali was also ducking Doug Jones.

By the way, the google news article that you cribbed ALL of that information from also states that the fight would have been a total mismatch. You put a nice spin on it as "Jones-Johnson was promoted to see if Ali should avoid Jones" when in reality thats not why bouts are promoted. Bouts are promoted to build up other bouts, not tear them down. They were trying to set up an Ali-Jones bout and it was a failure. It wasnt acceptable as Jones was nothing anymore. This was the Jones that you tout so highly as a victim of Spencer's. That alone says everything. You arent fooling anyone. You have a bug up your ass for Ali, obviously, and arent afraid to twist established facts to suit your fiction.

I get your general thesis: Ali was a chicken shit who was afraid to take on a challenge and only wanted to cherry pick his competition. Thad Spencer was the uncrowned champion based on his stellar record and was ducked by Ali, even though you admit that he wouldnt have beaten Ali.

You do realize that Ali fought Sonny Liston when nobody thought he had a chance with him, and stopped him. You do realize that Ali took on the highly rated, well respected Quarry (who knocked out your hero) as his first fight in over three years, and stopped him. You do realize he took on the dangerous, awkward, and highly rated Bonavena in only his second fight after that layoff less than two months after facing Quarry and stopped him. You do realize he took on a raging, absolutely prime Joe Frazier in only his third fight back, less than five months after his return going a hellacious fifteen rounds. You do realize that he fought Ken Norton 12 rounds with a broken jaw losing a split decision and came back to fight an immediate rematch as soon as his jaw healed. You do realize that he fought a prime George Foreman when few people gave him a chance and many worried for his health, stopping him. I could keep going but I think anyone who tries to insinuate that Ali was a cherry picking coward has his head firmly up his ass.

[klompton]

Like everything youve posted: that deviates from what I just said how?

I know youve seen this and hope nobody else does but this pretty much spells out the situation:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NS ... %2C3639143

After Jones lost to Chuvalo and Billy Daniels he was considered finished. He made his comeback fighting stiffs in hopes of getting a shot at Ali based on his close loss to Ali pre title. His strategy was to fight for Chris Dundee in hopes that he could build a rep off of a bunch of easy stumble bum wins. It didnt work. Nobody saw through the strategy. Instead he got a shot at paper champion Terrell and lost fairly easily. This basically proved that he was not championship calibre, at least not anymore if he ever was. He couldnt go back to facing nobody's so what did he do? He faced the same young up and coming fighters that he complained were too green to fight earlier and lost every time out with the exception of his win over 11 fight veteran Boone Kirkman (and remember you dont count cut eye stoppages, especially when the fighter stopped is ahead on the cards and in control like Kirkman was) Instead he was forced to actually fight fighters who had won more than they had lost in the last year or two and surprise, he was easily beaten.

[Rover]

In today's era, given (just as one example) the WBA, which has had three champions in a division, Spencer perhaps could've won a title. Of course, that says more about today's era...

[klompton]

Spencer was no better than any of the other fighters Ali fought in 1966/67 with POSSIBLE exception of Brian London and even that is a highly debatable point.

Still, none of these silly arguments explain why we should consider Thad Spencer an uncrowned heavyweight champion, least of all the possibility that he MIGHT have been a champion in todays era. He didnt fight in todays era, he fought in his own era where even the thread starter who gave it this stupid name admits he wouldnt have been a champion.

Im assuming in talking about Jones' fight with Ali you are referencing Jones' HOMETOWN fans displeasure with the decision? Fans dont dictate the winner of a close bout, the judges do. That fight was no robbery. It was close, and competetive and a lot of people wanted to see the local boy (who had a bigger rep) beat the loudmouth in his second fight in Louisville. Now keep calling him Clay and trying to string together conspiracy theories which show your obvious bias against the man.

[p4p1]

December 1966

Joey Heatherton in Qui Nhon, South Vietnam "December 25, 1966"

Joey, "I'm supporting the Troops, not the War. I can't answer for the Heavyweight Champion.
What's better than Christmas Day in Vietnam, with thousands of young American Men and
Women showing their support. It's very easy to sit behind a Dozen Lawyers and say you're
against the War and claiming that you're risking everything."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... dcw_iQFhWw

So in your view without the help of hindsight Ali risked nothing by not supporting the war in Vietnam? It would of been a lot easier for him to go and do what was asked of him surely you can see that?

[klompton]

Again, what does this have to do with anything youve posted previously in this post? Other than it being a sad attempt at steering the conversation in a different direction from earlier embarrassing posts.

[klompton]

how many tours of duty did thad spencer do in vietnam i forget.

[klompton]

Oh, sooo, he didnt do any tours in Vietnam? So his supposed involvement with military ended right as Vietnam began... Was all of that donated time before or after his alcohol and drug binges which included cocaine and pot? By his own admission this had become a problem by the time he was 16. None of this has anything to do with the grounds for calling him an uncrowned heavyweight champion of anything except getting two women pregnant when he was 17 and both giving birth to his children on the same day. See how easy character assassination is when your hero is a clay pigeon? Kinda opens up a can of worms when you start popping off doesnt it?

[klompton]

You werent adding anything, you were making things up to suit your agenda.

[klompton]

"Thad Spencer 'Uncrowned Heavyweight Champion'"

Well lets start with the biggest one. Thad Spencer has never been considered by anyone, including his mom, an uncrowned champion.

"Light-to-Mediocre Punchers (ie; Cassius Clay, Ernie Terrell and Doug Jones} were
no problem for him, as he would walk them down."

Then you admit that Thad would have lost to Ali, not to mention his bout with Terrell was more competetive than the scores suggest, and his bout with Doug Jones (who was considered a pretty hard puncher, just a smaller HW) was against a much faded fighter.

"Had there been an IBF or WBO Organization in 1967, Thad Spenccer would have won a version of the Heavyweight Championship, then lost it in his 'first defense' to Jerry Quarry."

This is pure fancy. Who would he have won the IBF or WBO title from? Besides, lowering your standards to a watered down fractured set of titles in order to elevate Thad's standing is a pretty weak and bass ackwards argument.

"But a proper Organization in November 1965 would have never allowed the Cassius Clay - Floyd Patterson bout to take place."

Really? In November of 1965 Patterson was rated the #1 HW by Ring Magazine whose ratings most people took over the WBC and the god awful WBA.

"Money was the only reason the bout took place, as they threw in an injured Challenger into the Ring with the Champion."

Bullshit. Patterson was #1 and had just fought the fight of the year to get that shot. Two months before Patterson beat Chuvalo Spencer was stopped by Lincoln. The same night Patterson fought Ali Spencer again lost to Lincoln. Now THAT is a fight nobody would have sanctioned. You really want to argue that Spencer, who admits he was doing drugs and drinking while training for this fight, would have even been competetive with Ali after losing to a one dimensional plodding guy like Lincoln who on paper should have been made for Spencer?

"It was called a game of 'manipulation', and Cassius liked to see how far he could make the 'suckers' go........"

So 47 years later Ali is still carrying on his private joke by manipulating millions of people into calling him Ali instead of Clay?

"Everybody regarded Thad Spencer as one of the Top 10 Contenders between mid/late-1963 and early-1968."

You wanna back up here also and revise this? Your beloved WBA hadnt even heard of Spencer as he doesnt appear in their ratings in 1963, or 1964. He didnt crack their ratings until after he defeated Billy Daniels in March of 1965 so it was mid 1965 before he started appearing in the ratings at #10. Prior to that he appeared in various ratings at #17, #19, and #23. Way to tack on a full two years to his standing as a contender...

"Cassius Clay has only 'mediocre opponents' in front of him.
* Zora Folley..................... A scientific but aged 34 year-old veteran who has managed to move up to the #2 Ranking.
* George Chuvalo.............. The tough but limited Canadian strong-man who now ranks as the #9 Heavyweight
* Floyd Patterson............... A rematch in the 'Horror of Horrors', with the now #6 Ranked former two-time Champion.
The best on the Challenging List is the young and #1 Rated - Thad Spencer, but the Champion has not mentioned
the West-Coast Heavyweight in his potential list of Challengers."

Unfortunately thats not the case. When Ali defeated Terrell both Boxing illustrated and Ring had Terrell #1 and Folley #2. Who did Ali defend against next? Folley. However Spencer's loss to McMurray resulted in the surprising decision by the WBA to not bump him down when he very quickly came back and outpointed Doug Jones (who everyone else realized had no gas left in the tank). Boxing Illustrated dropped him to 8, while the Ring dropped him to 7. But something else interesting happened which shook up the ratings: Karl Mildenberger, who you dinegrate, stopped Amos Lincoln (who had twice beaten spencer) just one month before Spencer was able to finally defeat Lincoln, and skyrocketed in everybody's ratings. He went to #1 by the WBA, #1 by Boxing Illustrated, and #2 by the Ring. Oh, and those two others on the list that you mention as mediocre: Patterson and Chuvalo were both rated ahead of Spencer by anyone didnt make the bizarre decision not to drop Spencer after his loss to McMurray.

"Muhammad Ali should have been 'stripped' of the Heavyweight Championship for accepting
Brian London as a Challenger.

Brian was not even a Top 20 Heavyweight, and was considered a 'joke' to 99% of the boxing fans."

Wrong. He was rated #6 in the world and #1 in Britain by Boxing Illustrated (whose ratings, like the Ring, where considered reliable and impartial) and only two months prior to facing Ali had just had a feature article written about him in the magazine. This was before he had even signed to face Ali. This is aside from the fact that it was considered a gimme fight considering Ali had become the most active HW champion since Louis that year, defeating several men who were in or right outside of the top 10.


"This is 1966 we're talking about.

Replace;
* Henry Cooper with Amos Johnson
* Brian London with Thad Spencer
* George Chuvalo with Eduardo Corletti"

And why pray tell would you do that when Cooper was rated above Johnson (7 and 8), London was rated above Spencer (6 and 13), and Chuvalo was rated above Corletti (5 and 11) at the beginning of 1966. Only Thad Spencer climbed above those guys and only after a fairly tepid 1966

"Muhammad Ali couldn't drop Ernie Terrell after 15-Rounds of hitting him, and at no time was Muhammad
close to flooring Big Ernie."

And at no time was Ali close to being dropped or outpointed, yet Thad was dropped against terrell in a competetive fight. Ali clearly performed better against a better terrell.


"But they were Cassius Clay's 'Top' sparring partners, and were sent in to 'test' Doug Jones
to see if he still had it."

No they werent. Jones had gone down there, with the invitation from the Dundees in hopes of building a promotion around a revenge fight between Ali and Jones. Not to test Jones and see if he was still good and by implication if he was to duck him. thats ridiculous. Who promotes bouts like that?

"Also, it was pretty obvious that the LSG Management Team didn't want Cassius
to fight Doug Jones again in 1963, as an immediate rematch was warranted."

Why should they have? They were right around the corner from a title shot. You dont go backwards when you are that close... Unless you are Povetkin.

I realize these are inconvenient truths for you to assimilate but thats what happens when you start making shit up to support a ridiculous claim.

[SteveO]

Great post Klompton. You did a lot of research there. Let's see how he tries to wriggle out of those facts.

[evrenb]

"Thad Spencer 'Uncrowned Heavyweight Champion'"

Well lets start with the biggest one. Thad Spencer has never been considered by anyone, including his mom, an uncrowned champion.

"Light-to-Mediocre Punchers (ie; Cassius Clay, Ernie Terrell and Doug Jones} were
no problem for him, as he would walk them down."

Then you admit that Thad would have lost to Ali, not to mention his bout with Terrell was more competetive than the scores suggest, and his bout with Doug Jones (who was considered a pretty hard puncher, just a smaller HW) was against a much faded fighter.

"Had there been an IBF or WBO Organization in 1967, Thad Spenccer would have won a version of the Heavyweight Championship, then lost it in his 'first defense' to Jerry Quarry."

This is pure fancy. Who would he have won the IBF or WBO title from? Besides, lowering your standards to a watered down fractured set of titles in order to elevate Thad's standing is a pretty weak and bass ackwards argument.

"But a proper Organization in November 1965 would have never allowed the Cassius Clay - Floyd Patterson bout to take place."

Really? In November of 1965 Patterson was rated the #1 HW by Ring Magazine whose ratings most people took over the WBC and the god awful WBA.

"Money was the only reason the bout took place, as they threw in an injured Challenger into the Ring with the Champion."

Bullshit. Patterson was #1 and had just fought the fight of the year to get that shot. Two months before Patterson beat Chuvalo Spencer was stopped by Lincoln. The same night Patterson fought Ali Spencer again lost to Lincoln. Now THAT is a fight nobody would have sanctioned. You really want to argue that Spencer, who admits he was doing drugs and drinking while training for this fight, would have even been competetive with Ali after losing to a one dimensional plodding guy like Lincoln who on paper should have been made for Spencer?

"It was called a game of 'manipulation', and Cassius liked to see how far he could make the 'suckers' go........"

So 47 years later Ali is still carrying on his private joke by manipulating millions of people into calling him Ali instead of Clay?

"Everybody regarded Thad Spencer as one of the Top 10 Contenders between mid/late-1963 and early-1968."

You wanna back up here also and revise this? Your beloved WBA hadnt even heard of Spencer as he doesnt appear in their ratings in 1963, or 1964. He didnt crack their ratings until after he defeated Billy Daniels in March of 1965 so it was mid 1965 before he started appearing in the ratings at #10. Prior to that he appeared in various ratings at #17, #19, and #23. Way to tack on a full two years to his standing as a contender...

"Cassius Clay has only 'mediocre opponents' in front of him.
* Zora Folley..................... A scientific but aged 34 year-old veteran who has managed to move up to the #2 Ranking.
* George Chuvalo.............. The tough but limited Canadian strong-man who now ranks as the #9 Heavyweight
* Floyd Patterson............... A rematch in the 'Horror of Horrors', with the now #6 Ranked former two-time Champion.
The best on the Challenging List is the young and #1 Rated - Thad Spencer, but the Champion has not mentioned
the West-Coast Heavyweight in his potential list of Challengers."

Unfortunately thats not the case. When Ali defeated Terrell both Boxing illustrated and Ring had Terrell #1 and Folley #2. Who did Ali defend against next? Folley. However Spencer's loss to McMurray resulted in the surprising decision by the WBA to not bump him down when he very quickly came back and outpointed Doug Jones (who everyone else realized had no gas left in the tank). Boxing Illustrated dropped him to 8, while the Ring dropped him to 7. But something else interesting happened which shook up the ratings: Karl Mildenberger, who you dinegrate, stopped Amos Lincoln (who had twice beaten spencer) just one month before Spencer was able to finally defeat Lincoln, and skyrocketed in everybody's ratings. He went to #1 by the WBA, #1 by Boxing Illustrated, and #2 by the Ring. Oh, and those two others on the list that you mention as mediocre: Patterson and Chuvalo were both rated ahead of Spencer by anyone didnt make the bizarre decision not to drop Spencer after his loss to McMurray.

"Muhammad Ali should have been 'stripped' of the Heavyweight Championship for accepting
Brian London as a Challenger.

Brian was not even a Top 20 Heavyweight, and was considered a 'joke' to 99% of the boxing fans."

Wrong. He was rated #6 in the world and #1 in Britain by Boxing Illustrated (whose ratings, like the Ring, where considered reliable and impartial) and only two months prior to facing Ali had just had a feature article written about him in the magazine. This was before he had even signed to face Ali. This is aside from the fact that it was considered a gimme fight considering Ali had become the most active HW champion since Louis that year, defeating several men who were in or right outside of the top 10.


"This is 1966 we're talking about.

Replace;
* Henry Cooper with Amos Johnson
* Brian London with Thad Spencer
* George Chuvalo with Eduardo Corletti"

And why pray tell would you do that when Cooper was rated above Johnson (7 and 8), London was rated above Spencer (6 and 13), and Chuvalo was rated above Corletti (5 and 11) at the beginning of 1966. Only Thad Spencer climbed above those guys and only after a fairly tepid 1966

"Muhammad Ali couldn't drop Ernie Terrell after 15-Rounds of hitting him, and at no time was Muhammad
close to flooring Big Ernie."

And at no time was Ali close to being dropped or outpointed, yet Thad was dropped against terrell in a competetive fight. Ali clearly performed better against a better terrell.


"But they were Cassius Clay's 'Top' sparring partners, and were sent in to 'test' Doug Jones
to see if he still had it."

No they werent. Jones had gone down there, with the invitation from the Dundees in hopes of building a promotion around a revenge fight between Ali and Jones. Not to test Jones and see if he was still good and by implication if he was to duck him. thats ridiculous. Who promotes bouts like that?

"Also, it was pretty obvious that the LSG Management Team didn't want Cassius
to fight Doug Jones again in 1963, as an immediate rematch was warranted."

Why should they have? They were right around the corner from a title shot. You dont go backwards when you are that close... Unless you are Povetkin.

I realize these are inconvenient truths for you to assimilate but thats what happens when you start making poo up to support a ridiculous claim.

Brilliant. That is the best thing i have ever read on this forum and was matched against the most idiotic argument ever...lmao to the end of days.....'....you wanna suck what?? '

[evrenb]

WOW,

And to think, both RING MAGAZINE and BOXING ILLUSTRATED foolishly put this 'Bum' Thad Spencer
on their Front Covers.

Spencer wasn't a Bum and whoever says that is wrong. He isn't the uncrowned Heavyweight champion either.

[klompton]

Oh Im sorry, Spencer somehow made the 10th position of the WBA ratings for 3 months and then disappeared completely until 1965. Like I said, he was not considered a top 10 contender from 1963 through 1968. That is pure revisionist hogwash. As Ive tried to illustrate, the WBA ratings by this point had begun to slide all over the place and this illustrates it perfectly. Spencer gets a top 10 ranking by beating Alabama Heavyweight no hoper Jefferson Davis who had lost the only two fights he had against anybody of note, in addition to losing his fight immediately preceding Spencer. Had anyone trumpeted one of Ali's wins over a lesser opponent (actually world rated) the way you have Spencer's win over Davis you would have jumped all over them, and rightly so. I take your silence on the other points I made as a pretty damning admission of your willingness to further your agenda at the expense of the facts.

[klompton]

You quote Gordie Gladson because he says he thinks SOMEDAY Spencer MIGHT have a chance with Liston and in the same article says Ali isnt ready. Strange how much weight you put in this article simply because he appreciates Spencer when he proved completely wrong about Ali, who defeated Liston with ease in his next bout after this article was written.

[klompton]

You realize whats happened here? Or maybe not. Your argument that Spencer was an avoided, uncrowned heavyweight champion has been whittled down to a nub and you are now forced into a corner where your only retort is to publish pointless, desperate jabs at Ali's vietnam record (which is no worse than Spencer's). As if that has anything to do with Spencer ever being considered an uncrowned champion.

[saturdaysradio]

Oh Im sorry, Spencer somehow made the 10th position of the WBA ratings for 3 months and then disappeared completely until 1965. Like I said, he was not considered a top 10 contender from 1963 through 1968.

Spencer broke into the Ring Magazines ratings in the early summer of 1965 - hovering around #7. He rose up to #3 in the summer of 1966 and eventually made it to #2. He stayed in the top 4 until May 1967 but then dropped back down to the #7 range. By early 1968 he was back up to #2 for a few months before dropping during the summer and finally falling out of the Ring ratings in the fall.