Clay vs Liston I: 50th Year Anniversary

[raylawpc]

I guess maybe you missed my question AMBLING ALP II:

"How many times did Clay get hit with a solid, hard shot in [the first] fight . . .?"

[Ambling Alp II]

How many times did Clay get hit with a solid, hard shot in that fight, Alp?

Not many. It's not surprising at all that a slow fighter could not catch probably the fastest fighter in the world. Liston had enough trouble with Eddie Machen who didn't move nearly as well as Clay (Ali) did in those days. Clay knew that the best way to beat a fighter that much slower than him was to move a lot, throw jabs, and occasionally stop and throw a combination. Ali didn't get hit cleanly very often over the next three years either.

The real question is was Liston trying? Yes he was.

[raylawpc]

How many times did Clay get hit with a solid, hard shot in that fight, Alp?

Not many. It's not surprising at all that a slow fighter could not catch probably the fastest fighter in the world. Liston had enough trouble with Eddie Machen who didn't move nearly as well as Clay (Ali) did in those days. Clay knew that the best way to beat a fighter that much slower than him was to move a lot, throw jabs, and occasionally stop and throw a combination. Ali didn't get hit cleanly very often over the next three years either.

The real question is was Liston trying? Yes he was.

Well, your view of the Machen fight is different than mine. Liston won by scores of 119-112, 118-114, 118-116 AFTER losing three points for low blows. So I don't think it was as close as you maintain. It is hard to KO a guy who's only desire seems to be lasting the distance.

But that side, you don't think it is even remotely possible that, if Liston knew he was going to throw the fight, that he would miss his best punches? Liston fought a very stupid fight. Could he have not done it on purpose?

[BoxBuzz]

Of course it's possible.

But all things considered, I suppose it is within reason for opinions to vary vastly on this.

But seriously if you don't trust the science of body language, then maybe there is no way to have faith either way.

It's about the only thing that can lend credibility to the proceedings at this point.

And it can be rejected out of hand by many.


I have no reason to express anything other than what my training tells me. And if there is any credence to it, this is a genuine disagreement these two men are having.

Maybe we could get a "bona fide" body language expert to offer a counter opinion. Just to keep the score even, and the issue controversial. lol.

But yes Ray, it's entirely possible for any theory on this fight could be true. So it's about each person to settle it for themselves I suppose.

[BoxBuzz]

And of course you are not offering an opinion here, simply the courtesy of your specifc knowledge of what Liston was able to retain, and what he could not retain. Generous of you!

[raylawpc]

And of course you are not offering an opinion here, simply the courtesy of your specifc knowledge of what Liston was able to retain, and what he could not retain. Generous of you!

I suggest you read about Leotis Martin's account of his sparring sessions with Sonny Boy at
the Surfside Community Center in February 1964.

Little Leotis, all 175 lbs. of him, was boxing the ears off of that 'Big Oaf'.

Well, of course, if you ever cited a published work that contained these accounts, maybe we could . . .

[Ambling Alp II]

How many times did Clay get hit with a solid, hard shot in that fight, Alp?

Not many. It's not surprising at all that a slow fighter could not catch probably the fastest fighter in the world. Liston had enough trouble with Eddie Machen who didn't move nearly as well as Clay (Ali) did in those days. Clay knew that the best way to beat a fighter that much slower than him was to move a lot, throw jabs, and occasionally stop and throw a combination. Ali didn't get hit cleanly very often over the next three years either.

The real question is was Liston trying? Yes he was.

Well, your view of the Machen fight is different than mine. Liston won by scores of 119-112, 118-114, 118-116 AFTER losing three points for low blows. So I don't think it was as close as you maintain. It is hard to KO a guy who's only desire seems to be lasting the distance.

But that side, you don't think it is even remotely possible that, if Liston knew he was going to throw the fight, that he would miss his best punches? Liston fought a very stupid fight. Could he have not done it on purpose?

Liston did not land many hard punches vs Machen. He won because Machen did almost nothing on offense.
Liston fought like always did; he was just fighter someone who was much better than anyone he ever fought, and someone whose style was bad for him. People say he should have cut off the ring; no kidding. He just didn't have the ability to that against Clay.

I assume you have seen the fight. Liston was throwing hard punches. If he was really throwing the fight, he would not have risked that. Some of them didn't miss by much.

If this wan't Ali there would not any question to this fight. A fairly slow fighter can't catch an extremely fast fighter; not exactly rare in boxing.
There have been other fights that look far more suspicious that seldom get discussed. Look at Walcott-Marciano II. Look at Tua-Moorer, Moorer got hit by a punch that probably wouldn't have knocked you or me down and Moorer acts like he got shot.

[raylawpc]

It's easier to miss punches than you think. I've missed a lot more punches than I ever landed, and that's when I was actually trying to land them.

BTW, I am not arguing categorically that Liston threw the fight; I don't know. I think it is just as possible that the arm injury was legit, and he couldn't go on. Or he quit and faked the arm injury as an excuse. (Fast forward Roberto Duran's upset tummy v. Leonard . . .)

I do believe that, for whatever reason or reasons, he fought stupidly . . . Would he have won if he had fought smartly? Again, I don't know. (After all, he was fighting a guy I believe was one of the top three heavyweights of all-time.) But he would have had a much better chance . . .

[Controversial]

There are also other reports that state Liston battered Martin in sparring. Martin was bought in to help Liston with speed and they often would "touch spar" so no actual blows would be landed. Sparring means little.

[raylawpc]

Leotis Martin

'I was boxing the ears off of Sonny, and was embarrassing him. For '3-Days' in a row, I was nailing him coming
in with left-jabs.'

'Then they said Sonny had a sore shoulder, and they stopped all sparring. Later, Milt Bailey and Teddy King came
up to me and said......... "What the hell are you doing Leotis. You're making the old man look bad."

'I was told, that if I wanted to keep making {$75 per Day} as a sparring-partner, that I better put cement boots on
and stop moving around, and let Sonny hit me.'

Ya da ya da ya da . . . Source please . . .

[BoxBuzz]

When these two former sparring partners really get into a pro fight, later in life, they both screw each other up royally. They did develop bad blood between them. And Liston lost to a faster guy....however it was a guy who REALLY got to know Liston's playbook and it certainly gave him an edge. ANDListon extracted a huge toll out that loss. Leotis never fought again. Most of you know why.

And the above paragraph can be supported by many many sources....every word I just added is gospel truth. However...I have no "inside quotes" to share. But if I can create some, I'll be sure and add them later.

[raylawpc]

Sonny Liston - Leotis Martin

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... _8G0RYsVpw

Need a magnifying glass to read it, but it says something about Liston forcing Martin to ask for a break? That can't be right, you assured us Leotis boxed Sonny's ears off . . .

[yancey]

Sonny Liston - Leotis Martin

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... _8G0RYsVpw

Interesting to see Henry Armstrong's thoughts on Ali's chances against Sonny. Turned out to be a pretty good prognosticator.

[raylawpc]

Sonny Liston - Leotis Martin

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... _8G0RYsVpw

Need a magnifying glass to read it, but it says something about Liston forcing Martin to ask for a break? That can't be right, you assured us Leotis boxed Sonny's ears off . . .

Easy there 'Nim-Rod',

Leotis was boxing the ears off of Sonny Boy in earlier February 1964 sparring sessions.

But, Leotis was told to 'stay still' and stop moving in the later February sessions at the Surfside Auditorium.
That is where Sonny Boy did his damage.

It's spelt Nimrod, not Nim-rod. Source please.

[raylawpc]

Correct, 'Nimrod' is a word.

But so is 'Nim-Rod'.

Okay. Quit dodging the issue. Source please for your Leotis Martin quotes and statements.

[raylawpc]

Leotis Martin

Started working with Sonny Liston out in Las Vegas in July 1963, helping Sonny prepare for his rematch with
Floyd Patterson.

Leotis, a skinny 6' 1" 175 lb.- 24 year-old Light-Heavyweight with a record of 9-0-0 {5 KO's} at the time, was used as a
speed-thoroughbred during the sparring-sessions.

By January 1964, Leotis was brought out to Las Vegas {Thunderbird Hotel} to help work with Sonny prior to the
Liston Camp bring their Road-Show to the Surfside Auditorium in Miami Beach.

Out there, Leotis continued with his 'speed-work', and was making Sonny Boy miss with regularity. Willie Reddish
wanted Leotis to make Sonny work on quickening his left-jab, and right-hand leads to the body.

After several sessions, Sonny complained to Willie Reddish that Leotis was moving too much.

As per Leotis Martin, Sonny was now much slower than he had been back in July 1963. He was 12 lbs. heavier, and
was sluggish in every session at the Thunderbird Hotel in Las Vegas.

Again, sources please . . .

[BoxBuzz]

When these two former sparring partners really get into a pro fight, later in life, they both screw each other up royally. They did develop bad blood between them. And Liston lost to a faster guy....however it was a guy who REALLY got to know Liston's playbook and it certainly gave him an edge. ANDListon extracted a huge toll out that loss. Leotis never fought again. Most of you know why.

And the above paragraph can be supported by many many sources....every word I just added is gospel truth. However...I have no "inside quotes" to share. But if I can create some, I'll be sure and add them later.

Sources for the so-called 'Bad Blood' statement.

Total Hogwash...........

How dare you call my statement TOTAL Hogwash.

1. Liston's Jaw was broke......Martins Eye was damaged. Matter of documented record. I'd say taking his fighting career away was "extracting a huge toll"
2. Leotis was a "faster guy". If you don't believe me just ask me.
3. Leotis was his sparring partner for some time, and got to know Liston's style.....and the fact that you refer to this many times in your various contributions does not necessarily mean it is untrue. You often use truth in some of your stories.


Your statement about my words being Total Hogwash, Is Pure Asswipe.
(I am of course referring to a towel used to dust off a donkey, and nothing more distasteful).


Now if you want to sell everyone here that Sonny and Leotis were bestest buddies when they fought, and one of them knocked their opponent out in the fight, and the other knocked their opponent out of the game for good. Well good luck with that! They may well have forgiven each other in the wake of this fight...which often happens. Fighter often regain respect for each other after being exposed to their mutual fury.

But even if what you said was true....(and let's face it....what are the odds of that?) That would still only amount to about 20% hogwash.

However 20% would be keeping in line with your percentage of facts vs fallacies within your overall body of work. So your attempt at consistency is noted.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, if you say so. Now I know better.

What's a broken Jaw and a detached retina between friends right? They were simply competitors.

And yet, it seems almost incredible doesn't it?

Do you think something in that article would give one cause/pause to embrace your spin on this?

Or do you just like posting hyperlinks to irrelevancy?

[raylawpc]

Well, if you say so. Now I know better.

What's a broken Jaw and a detached retina between friends right? They were simply competitors.

And yet, it seems almost incredible doesn't it?

Do you think something in that article would give one cause/pause to embrace your spin on this?

Or do you just like posting hyperlinks to irrelevancy?

I've never heard that Liston suffered a broken jaw against Martin. He suffered a broken jaw against Marshall. Are you sure Martin broke Liston's jaw?

[BoxBuzz]

Ray...you are 100% correct......My bad. No jacked jaw, just KO'd.

What was I thinking? Marshall, Martin, Martians....I was in a fog. But I've wandered out, and am

seeing things nearly in focus for the moment. lol.

Il Duce, can you forgive my lowful todying?


Never the less, I did read that they weren't on the best of terms at that moment, though all was behind them after the fight. But Il Duce has read different. But I don't think Duce got his info from that particular hyperlink. At least I could not find it.....but it was foggy out there.

[raylawpc]

Dr. Buzz Bomb,

You have lost 'all credibility'.

Claiming that Sonny Boy had his 'jaw broken' by his friend Leotis Martin.

RayLawPC called you on it........... and TKO'd your 'coolie'.

There is a difference between you and Buzz: (1) When Buzz is mistaken, he admits it. (2) Buzz doesn't make stuff up.

Your saying Buzz has lost all credibility is the perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black . . .

[BoxBuzz]

Dr. Buzz Bomb,

You have lost 'all credibility'.

Claiming that Sonny Boy had his 'jaw broken' by his friend Leotis Martin.

RayLawPC called you on it........... and TKO'd your 'coolie'.

Well your opinion of my credibility is most likely in direct reaction to mine of yours. I do tend to you hound you when you spout on and then post links that do not relate to your point. I never lose my enthusiasm for wanting to bear witness as a basis of confirmation for new and interesting claims.

And even when you do hit pay dirt with a reference, it's usually a very dubious source that has no other cross reference. So I like to keep on top of that on the subjects that interest me.

And yes, I may well have lost the major portion of my credibility when I made up my mind that your many fictions shall be tolerated under your rights of free expression. lol.

But I have no regrets. And yes, I got the Marshall and Martin bouts a bit "fused". But I'm not certain that dilutes my point. It just serves to remind me that's it's always good to refresh yourself on the facts by reviewing documents before you trust the ol 60 year plus memory bank on certain matters.

[Datsue]

Well your opinion of my credibility is most likely in direct reaction to mine of yours. I do tend to you hound you when you spout on and then post links that do not relate to your point. I never lose my enthusiasm for wanting to bear witness as a basis of confirmation for new and interesting claims.

And even when you do hit pay dirt with a reference, it's usually a very dubious source that has no other cross reference. So I like to keep on top of that on the subjects that interest me.

And yes, I may well have lost the major portion of my credibility when I made up my mind that your many fictions shall be tolerated under your rights of free expression. lol.

But I have no regrets. And yes, I got the Marshall and Martin bouts a bit "fused". But I'm not certain that dilutes my point. It just serves to remind me that's it's always good to refresh yourself on the facts by reviewing documents before you trust the ol 60 year plus memory bank on certain matters.

Nicely done.

[raylawpc]

And we're all waiting for sources from you . . . tic-toc-tic-toc . . .

[BoxBuzz]

I'm waiting for the 'Bad Blood' reference.................Tic-Toc-Tic-Toc.........

It's what I understood to be true from reading of the boxing magazine of the day in real time. As well as they buried the hatchet after the bout. I couldn't find anything to the contrary in your hyperlinks. And really if they were friends at the time, according to your assumptions, my questions would be very valid.