Clay vs Liston I: 50th Year Anniversary

[elmersalsa]

One of the most bizarre heavyweight title fights in history happened in a night like tonight. The great Sonny Liston quit on his stool because of a separated shoulder out of the socket. A finish that was so controversial that was the beginning of the end that brought more questions than answers, setting it up for a worser and greater controversial fiasco a year later in Lewinston, ME ....... A then 22 year old named Cassius Clay, who later named himself Muhammad Ali the next day after this fiasco, became the heavyewight champion of the world and "shook up the world"

It was the end of an era of a great fighter and the start of one of the most charismatic, entertaining, colorful and greatest champions in history. The world of sports would never be the same. It was the beginning of the end of the innocence.

The Ring Magazine called it The Fight of the Decade of the 1960s.

Interestingly, at the time when Liston QUIT in his stool in round 7, the fight was close.

What really happened to Liston?

What really happened on that night in Miami Beach?

[Ambling Alp II]

It is an historic date in boxing history. Hopefully this thread won't ruined but it probably will be. Liston was a great fighter who got schooled by a boxer that was that much greater than him.
Liston found that he was not able to land punches. He had been hurt, and his face was swelling up. Knowing he was not going to win, he quit. It was that simple. Look at the end of round 6, Liston is still trying to land hard punches, he just could not get to Clay. (Ali)

It was disappointing that Liston quit in his corner and didn't go out like a champion.
Still it was a tremendous performance by Clay. He moved like no heavyweight before him, (or after) and landed some nice jabs and combinations. He even got through the 5th round when he barely could see for most of the round. After he could see again, he regrouped and took over where he had left off.

Clay's surprising victory and eye opening performance stunned a lot of people at a time when boxing was still a big deal.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm sure you'll come up with a story to fill any void you perceive to exist!

[yancey]

The near universal conclusion of my 5th grade class on the morning of Feb 26, 1964 was that something stunk and that Sonny had taken a dive.

This reaction was doubtless heavily influenced by the reaction of our fathers the night before.

Back then, a heavyweight championship fight was a pretty big deal. Nowadays, I reckon 5th graders wouldn't even know or care about a championship fight.

[BoxBuzz]

The general feeling in and around my circle of boxing friends was that Sonny got beat up. And Clay won the championship even after a close call with bad liniment.

And then a lot of people went to work to create a cottage industry out of "making believe" this was the most mysterious and amazing event in history. At a time when plots, scandals and secrets were the all the rage. (Some like our "esteamed" colleague are still at it!)

SO much less boring than just a lost fight by an aging champion. Who wants that story? That's barely enough to fill one column in the next day's newspaper sports page. It simply won't do. lol

[yancey]

Dr. Bird Buzz

Are you the only one up there in Southern New Hampshire with their head in the Sand.

[SenorPipino]

Ali detractors will always cling to stories about dives and mob connections being behind Liston's sudden demise. It comforts them to slight Ali's skills.

But the truth is that Liston, like Foreman a decade later, simply believed his own "invincible" press clippings, and then simply lost heart when he couldn't make a remarkably fast, agile challenger quickly dissappear like he had so many others.

Happy pugilistic anniversary to the GOAT and one of the most storied championship bouts of all time.

[SamWise72]

There is no photo here. You know that, right?

[BoxBuzz]

February 7, 1964

How popular was Cassius Clay.

Not very. Here he is walking to Sonny Liston's Training Camp by himself.

The other people in this photo had no idea of who Cassius was. The gentleman on the right thought Cassius
was a 'Soda Jerk' at the Surfside Ice Cream Parlor.

Gentleman >
"He was walking down the street by himself in his nice little outfit with a bow tie. He looked like a 'Soda Jerk'."

Shhh....dont say anything....


Why yes Il Duce....and a fine photograph it is! You can clearly see the emperor's finely tailored outfit! And yes that's young Cassius standing right next to you!

[Borinken25]

[raylawpc]

Liston said he quit because he had injured his left arm. The injury was confirmed by a commission doctor.

[BoxBuzz]

I thought this was borne out to be true as well. Documented rather credibly as I understood it.

[Ambling Alp II]

The injury was always something that was looked on with skepticism. He quit because he was knew he wasn't going to win. Watch the fight, he was still throwing punches late in the 6th round. Another case of the "tough guy" not having enough guts.

[raylawpc]

I don't know whether it was true or not. I'm merely reminding everybody that a physician confirmed that Liston's arm was injured. I don't know whether Liston was capable of fooling the doctor, or whether he could have continued. Only Liston knew, and he's not in a position to let us know.

[Controversial]

Big thing in the press today about the fight and the FBI investigating it as thought to be fixed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/26343690

"Fifty years on from the man then known as Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston to become heavyweight champion of the world for the first time, new documents have come to light which reveal that the FBI long suspected that the shock result was really a fix"

FBI memos, since obtained by the Washington Times, were deemed so sensitive at the time that they were addressed directly to Edgar Hoover.

One memo, dated 24 May 1966, outlined an interview with Houston gambler Barnett Magids, who believed Liston would win.

But he spoke to his friend Resnick on the day of the fight and was told not to bet on the champion.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, (Magids) reached Resnick again by phone," the memo read.

"At this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realised that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose.

"Later, people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over one million dollars betting against Liston on the fight."

[raylawpc]

I don't know whether it was true or not. I'm merely reminding everybody that a physician confirmed that Liston's arm was injured. I don't know whether Liston was capable of fooling the doctor, or whether he could have continued. Only Liston knew, and he's not in a position to let us know.

Sonny Liston,

Did have issues with his left shoulder during Training Camp {Surfside Community Center}. He halted training
'three times' while he was there.

'Bursitis'........
Remedy;
1) Rest
2} Apply 'liniment solution' to the shoulder area.
3} Deep massage every 2-Hours
4} Keep arm rested, angled 45* downward below shoulder height, or in a sling.
5} Stay out of air-conditioned facilities.
6} Ice affected area as much as possible.

7} Don't engage in a boxing match with hot young unbeaten contender.

Sonny must have missed point seven . . .

[raylawpc]

Big thing in the press today about the fight and the FBI investigating it as thought to be fixed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/26343690

"Fifty years on from the man then known as Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston to become heavyweight champion of the world for the first time, new documents have come to light which reveal that the FBI long suspected that the shock result was really a fix"

FBI memos, since obtained by the Washington Times, were deemed so sensitive at the time that they were addressed directly to Edgar Hoover.

One memo, dated 24 May 1966, outlined an interview with Houston gambler Barnett Magids, who believed Liston would win.

But he spoke to his friend Resnick on the day of the fight and was told not to bet on the champion.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, (Magids) reached Resnick again by phone," the memo read.

"At this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realised that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose.

"Later, people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over one million dollars betting against Liston on the fight."

You failed to include this important tidbit in your summary of the BBC report: "No conclusive evidence was found."

[Controversial]

Big thing in the press today about the fight and the FBI investigating it as thought to be fixed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/26343690

"Fifty years on from the man then known as Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston to become heavyweight champion of the world for the first time, new documents have come to light which reveal that the FBI long suspected that the shock result was really a fix"

FBI memos, since obtained by the Washington Times, were deemed so sensitive at the time that they were addressed directly to Edgar Hoover.

One memo, dated 24 May 1966, outlined an interview with Houston gambler Barnett Magids, who believed Liston would win.

But he spoke to his friend Resnick on the day of the fight and was told not to bet on the champion.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, (Magids) reached Resnick again by phone," the memo read.

"At this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realised that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose.

"Later, people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over one million dollars betting against Liston on the fight."

You failed to include this important tidbit in your summary of the BBC report: "No conclusive evidence was found."

The link was to the BBC story, the other info I included was copied from from another site.

Yes nothing untoward found but doesn't mean it was 100% kosher either. Would you honestly be surprised if it was proved to be true? I wouldn't,

[raylawpc]

Big thing in the press today about the fight and the FBI investigating it as thought to be fixed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/26343690

"Fifty years on from the man then known as Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston to become heavyweight champion of the world for the first time, new documents have come to light which reveal that the FBI long suspected that the shock result was really a fix"

FBI memos, since obtained by the Washington Times, were deemed so sensitive at the time that they were addressed directly to Edgar Hoover.

One memo, dated 24 May 1966, outlined an interview with Houston gambler Barnett Magids, who believed Liston would win.

But he spoke to his friend Resnick on the day of the fight and was told not to bet on the champion.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, (Magids) reached Resnick again by phone," the memo read.

"At this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realised that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose.

"Later, people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over one million dollars betting against Liston on the fight."

You failed to include this important tidbit in your summary of the BBC report: "No conclusive evidence was found."

The link was to the BBC story, the other info I included was copied from from another site.

Yes nothing untoward found but doesn't mean it was 100% kosher either. Would you honestly be surprised if it was proved to be true? I wouldn't,

I wouldn't be surprised either way. I wouldn't be surprised if he fought stupidly or hurt his shoulder or both which caused him to quit.

I wouldn't be surprised if he fought stupidly because he knew he was going into the tank.

But I agree with the FBI that the evidence is inconclusive. The only guy who knew for sure what happened in Miami Beach and Lewiston lies in a Las Vegas grave under a tombstone declaring him "A Man."

[BoxBuzz]

.......and El Macho! Ooops....I mean Ill Duce!!!

[Ambling Alp II]

Big thing in the press today about the fight and the FBI investigating it as thought to be fixed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/26343690

"Fifty years on from the man then known as Cassius Clay beating Sonny Liston to become heavyweight champion of the world for the first time, new documents have come to light which reveal that the FBI long suspected that the shock result was really a fix"

FBI memos, since obtained by the Washington Times, were deemed so sensitive at the time that they were addressed directly to Edgar Hoover.

One memo, dated 24 May 1966, outlined an interview with Houston gambler Barnett Magids, who believed Liston would win.

But he spoke to his friend Resnick on the day of the fight and was told not to bet on the champion.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, (Magids) reached Resnick again by phone," the memo read.

"At this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realised that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose.

"Later, people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over one million dollars betting against Liston on the fight."

You failed to include this important tidbit in your summary of the BBC report: "No conclusive evidence was found."

The link was to the BBC story, the other info I included was copied from from another site.

Yes nothing untoward found but doesn't mean it was 100% kosher either. Would you honestly be surprised if it was proved to be true? I wouldn't,

Yes, I would be 100% surprised. If Liston was really trying to throw the fight, then he would not have been trying to throw hard punches during the fight. It is that simple.

[BoxBuzz]

Maybe Liston knew there would eventually be people trained in the art of reading body language, and he took all the precautions that would stand the test of time to indicate to those future readers, that he was serious about this fight.

By the way, if Clay was in on it too, he was also trained to fool the readers.


Smart fella that Liston character. We all knew Clay was smart, he fooled us everytime he got in the ring. But Liston? Now that's a surprise.

[Controversial]

Yes, I would be 100% surprised. If Liston was really trying to throw the fight, then he would not have been trying to throw hard punches during the fight. It is that simple.

If true, I guess it depends on how realistic he wanted it to look, he had to be seen to be trying. Too many shady characters around Liston for my liking, thats why some sort of betting scam wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Of course the second bout didn't help much. It's a shame these things come out as it always casts doubts in peoples minds.

[Ambling Alp II]

You ought to be able to watch a fight that goes 6 rounds and be able to tell if a guy is trying or not. Liston was trying; it's as clear as day.

It's just as likely that the shady characters around Liston would fix fights for him that we won; yet nobody alleges that. Countless fighters had shady characters around; doesn't mean their fights were fixed.

[raylawpc]

How many times did Clay get hit with a solid, hard shot in that fight, Alp?