Prime Joe Louis vs. a prime Muhammad Ali?

[Kalan]

Bonavena lost ALL 5 of his most important fights: to Frazier, Ellis, an old Patterson, and Ali. He was a punching bag for anybody good. He weighed 203 for Ali.

Bonavena was a little, stubby, short, light, punching bag... Big ass Foreman would have done a Frazier job on OB.

More enlightening were Ali's 5 fights with Chuvalo and Norton... Both stopped easily by big bombers but actually laughed at Ali's lack of power.

I wouldn't call Frazier a "big bomber." He was smashed out early, twice, by the only big bomber he he ever met... But Joe was a sharp hitter for his size.

Ali wasn't... Louis could hit a ton and would have made quick work of Frazier like Foreman did... JL wouldn't get hammered too and fro by left hooks like Ali.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

BB did you imagine that that was a "clinical analysis" or a document produced by Joe's promotional company?

Not even saying it comes to the wrong conclusion....just that it is clearly produced with an agenda.....

The opposing camp could surely do just as totally subjective a "work" as that piece you just shared.

--- Might want to check your email and profile status. YOU are the opposing camp as you and others of your ilk have defined yourself on this board.

As for me, I grew up an avid Ali fan, however I continued to grow up and learned the arts of reason and analysis. As I noted, Ali had the stiffest top opposition compared to Joe as his only clear advantage. They are otherwise even in areas with Joe holding significant advantages in other areas, all carefully arrived at via viewing just about every Ali and Louis fight ever fought save the Berbick and Holmes fight that I refuse to dignify in the day. I uphold that integrity today in the interest of my humanity, nor do I watch videos of children being abused, nor the other sordid video available for the steaming masses to savor as can often be found in OT.

My agenda is to set the record straight, and I was rewarded when IBRO picked Joe as the #1 heavy over #2 Ali over a decade ago. Of course that beauty contest could change with the old guys dying off and new young guns armed with smarty pants know it all phones blithering their latest love interest, so who could know what will be next?

[Kalan]

Frazier’s scout couldn’t make it from Ali’s corner to Frazier’s corner to tell them Ali was quitting. Joe was on his feet bouncing around like a rubber ball waiting to be unleashed when Eddie Futch pulled the plug just before Ali stood up and collapsed

Ali was a drama queen -- he was acting and you fell for it.. Ali had no reason to quit.. Ali could see Eddie Futch stopping the fight in the opposite corner... It was plain for ALL to see---a super FAT, exhausted and helpless Frazier was punched from ring-post to ring-post in the 14th.. He couldn't avoid nor see the punches raining down on his fat, out-of-shape ass.. Ali took savage punishment in their 1st fight.. But this time a washed up Frazier couldn't punch well.. He was a sad story of an ass beaten fighter.. Ali slowed up and let Frazier throw in the preceding rounds -- to completely exhaust him before smashing him to death.

HOF trainer Futch had no choice, but to do what every other sane person would do... Stop the fight to save Frazier's life!!! Luckily Frazier quit in his next fight.

[Kalan]

An elusive target Ali was NOT!!! ... Frazier was 2 inches shorter than Louis with a shorter reach.. A prime Frazier nailed Ali freely with left hooks from the 1st round on to when he decked him hard in the 15th.. The right side of Ali's jaw looked like he was smuggling a cantaloupe it was so swollen from punches.. If fat little Joe Frazier could do that to Ali, think what the sleek and ripped Brown Bomber could do -- it would have been horrific -- an ice job.

As far as what happened to little guys Cooper and Banks after they decked Ali??? It doesn't matter.. They were nowhere in the Heavyweight Division so far as threatening the top contenders.. Their biggest claim to fame was decking the much bigger and stronger, but wide open Ali, with left hooks.

[Kalan]

Ali wasn't hit with single shots here and there... Cooper landed a flood of sharp left hooks on Ali in the 1st round -- and got his nose bleeding real good -- and many left hooks thereafter... And he landed one really good left hook that hurt Ali... A master boxer gets away from those punches.

Ali beat Cooper because he was 22 pounds heavier and taller with a longer reach -- and could absorb punches much better because he was a true Heavyweight. Louis was also a true Heavyweight because the next lower weight division at that time was 175 and he was a solid 200 at 21.. Louis massacred Baer and Carnera with a year of pro experience under his belt -- because he had master trainer Jack Blackburn.. Ali had non-boxer Dundee.. Louis could punch much harder than Henry Cooper and would have finished the job instead of letting Ali off the hook.. Louis was no bleeder and never lost a fight on cuts.

Vitali Klitschko was out of the ring longer than Ali and had NO exhibitions or tune-up fights before he return at 37 years of age.. Vitali was the best of his career after his comeback because he rehabbed his badly injured legs that always had a tendency to stiffen up on him because he hurt them badly in Kickboxing.. So when he came back he was better than ever and won a Heavyweight Championship destroying 30-1 Sam Peter in his first fight back. Ali was 9 years younger when he came back and had nothing wrong with his legs -- so he had no excuse.

George Foreman came back after 10 years out and at 38 years of age.. 10 years older than Ali's comeback.. George was new and improved because he learned how to relax and pace himself... After 7 years on the comeback trail Foreman won the Lineal Heavyweight championship with a 10th round KO.

[nickcat0]

Eddie Futch said Louis would win. Therefore, so would I.

I also saw an interview where Ali conceded that Louis was really "the greatest", and who am I to disagree?

[Kalan]

Eddie Futch said Louis would win. Therefore, so would I.

I also saw an interview where Ali conceded that Louis was really "the greatest", and who am I to disagree?

If there's anything I've learned it's that great trainers and fighters are no better at picking winners than some of the more astute fans. In fact many times they're worse because more generational bias or other biases come into play.. They're going to go with the boxers of their particular generation or the guys they knew personally.. That doesn't mean they're wrong -- it means their opinion is predictable.. People went apeshit over Louis in his day just like they did with Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, Robinson, and other charismatic characters. In the 1950's if Elvis Presley or Marilyn Monroe were spotted out and about, all Hell would break loose. Unfortunately they had to disguise their appearance and not look damned sexy.

Ali called about every famous boxer he met the greatest... Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Robinson, Pep, Marciano, all were the greatest he'd ever seen.. His honest opinion might have been that Larry Holmes was the best ever.. He raved about Holmes the first few times he boxed with him and called him "a much bigger Jimmy Ellis" and he referred to Jimmy Ellis at times as "The best boxer in the world" ... Ellis got punched in the head a lot so that's not an accurate assessment -- but that goes with having a close association with somebody. You're prone to overrating them.

That's one thing you have to be constantly on guard about -- because your friends and associates are never as good as you tend to think they are -- and your generation of boxers were never as good as you tend to think they were.

[AlexCayWalt]

Louis on points. Ali was solid, fast and had cat's reflexes. All these advantages would allow him to go the whole distance.
Joe Louis is on another boxing level. His mentality, tactics, technique. I don't see he could lose. George Foreman had more chances against Joe Louis.

[Kalan]

Maybe the 40-year-old Foreman who blended patience and experience. He was more judicious and deceptive with his jab. He might be able to set Louis up for a counter -- cuz he tried hard not to punch when you expected him to punch instead of loading and throwing like the young George.

But did Foreman fight more like Conn and Schmeling -- or more like Carnera and Baer? ... Louis had probs with the former and wasted the latter.

Johnson, Tunney, and Holmes had the best styles for Louis among 20th Century Heavyweights. Lennox Lewis and Sonny Liston would be tough.