BoxRec

Not sure I'm on board with the downscaled assessment of Marvin, as I do think of him as top 5 all time MW.

But, I do recall a contributor who constantly referred to him as a "plodder".

I just looked him up, and apparently that contributor was washed out from the forums for one reason or another.

his Moniker was "ringsider".

Reggie Johnson was a southpaw not in Hagler's class and and he gave Toney all he could handle.

Counter-puncher wrote:Hagler wasn't noted for his jab, Kaplan?

Yoi didn't watch the Minter fight closely enough when he tore Minters eyebrow off with it.

Nor did you watch the Sibson fight carefully enough, when he diced Sibson up with the jab, he bounced double and triple jabs off Sibsons head like it was a speedball

He dominated long stretches of the Mugabi fight with his jab.

Either you've hardly seen any Hagler fights or you're too dumb to see what any fool could have seen from watching them. You just spout the same tired tripe over and over like a broken fvcking record, you're a terrible self-parody

You're the guy who repeats himself because facts never penetrate your skull. I watched 15 to 20 of Hagler's fights, including Minter and Sibson. I was a big fan of Marv's -- but a bigger fan of the smarter, slicker Sugar Ray Leonard who out-boxed, out-jabbed, out-punched, and out-maneuvered him.

James Toney beat an Olympic Gold Medal winner who was 31-0 as a professional for the Lineal World CRUISERWEIGHT Title –- a Divisional World Title Marvin Hagler would NEVER try for. Vassiliy Jirov was stopped only once in his career by former Lineal Heavyweight Champion Michael Moorer. Alan Minter was stopped 8 times. He was very easily cut, so the fact that Hagler cut him it is not surprising.

Lottie Mwale---who had six (6) professional fights at the time---crushed Tony Sibson with a 1st round KO in Sibson’s 26th professional fight. Sibson suffered 5 KO losses so it wasn’t surprising that Hagler stopped him. Neither Minter or Sibson were world class boxers or punchers. Reggie Johnson was.

Since when has Hagler been noted for his jab? Hag was noted for his toughness. Marv had to go toe-to-toe with the unskilled swinger John Mugabi (who was knocked out 6 times in his career) for many rounds to win a battle of attrition!!! Certainly Terry Norris engaged neither John Mugabi nor Sugar Ray Leonard in slugfests.. Norris jabbed and boxed their ears off easily---taking care not to get hit by anything---and deposited them both on the canvas. Hag couldn’t do that.

Seamus wrote:Reggie Johnson was a southpaw not in Hagler's class and and he gave Toney all he could handle.

Tell me something great Hagler accomplished – such as winning a World Title in a much higher weight class – or defending the Middleweight Title 19 or 20 times – or beating somebody who was never stopped in his career in 52 fights and won World Middleweight and World Light Heavyweight Titles like Reggie Johnson did. You’re knocking James Toney for beating Reggie Johnson??? When did Hagler ever beat somebody as big, durable, and skilled as Johnson?

NOBODY ever came close to knocking Reggie Johnson out or stopping him. Reggie fought ATG’s like Roy Jones, James Toney, and Antonio Tarver, who were all arguably bigger, taller, stronger, and more skilled boxers than Hagler.

Reggie Johnson was pretty good, he just wasn't in Marvin Hagler's class. Funny how well Toney does in fantasy matchups on BoxRec against the likes of alltime greats, yet in the real world he didn't look too hot against the likes of Johnson, Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi, and Terry McGroom.

I think there are people that overrate Toney and now there is a backlash against him. He had a lot of talent, but often put in a lazy effort. In a career that has spanned almost 30 years and over 90 fights, you certainly can performances to rip him for and other where he was great. The win over Michael Nunn probably has kept Nunn out of the Hall of Fame. McCallum couldn't beat him in three tries. He won a tremendous fight with Jirov. He had other fights good but not great opponents where he looked great as well.

Seamus wrote:Reggie Johnson was pretty good, he just wasn't in Marvin Hagler's class. Funny how well Toney does in fantasy matchups

But what did Iran Barkley do for Tommy Hearns??? Blast him out. And him knock down 3 X in beating him twice is what he did...

On the other hand what did Barkley do for James Toney??? He gave James a really easy and dominant stoppage win is what he did... Benn, Nunn, Kalambay and many others also had few problems with Barkley, but Hearns never fought those guys... Now, I ask who were the more impressive natural Middleweights who Hagler beat??? Were any of them as good as Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum, or Michael Nunn??? Of course they weren't..

Hagler hit a window in Middleweight History were his competition was very flat indeed -- a little like Sugar Ray Robinson's era...

And Robinson never fought any Michael Nunn's.. James Toney's.. Mike McCallum's.. or Reggie Johnson's... Please don't throw out Rocky Graziano, Rocky Castillino, Jake LaMotta, (who all floored Robinson) Gene Fullmer, and the other challengers SRR fought who had no skills... How can we have a discussion if you misrepresent very wide open punching bags who had no skills -- and compare them to some of the top Middleweights in History who Toney fought? ... How would you expect Robinson to fare against the killers Toney fought??? Not very well...and you know it.

HA!!! McCallum, Johnson, and Nunn would beat the crap out of Robinson.. Johnson and Nunn were southpaws.. When did SRR fight a decent southpaw????

You know how many times Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins fought southpaws??? Like at least 12 X each... Where's Robinson's list????

My POINT is you keep talking about a PRIME Robinson whenever anybody talks about his numerous defeats... Roy Jones had numerous VICTORIES over southpaws on the day he turned 35... Roy had like 1 loss in his first 50 fights... His ONLY defeat was by DQ to a man he was pounding to trash.. He fought many more World Title Fights than Robinson fought taking on many more southpaws -- ALL of whom he defeated up to his 35th birthday.

Another point: Michael Nunn and Reggie Johnson were a lot bigger and stronger than Robinson and were BOTH southpaws... I'm not aware that Robinson defeated any world class southpaws in his entire career -- though he lost badly to Ralph Jones -- who lost his five (5) previous fights -- and wasn't even a southpaw.

I think GGG may be a little slow for Hagler. Marvin could punch a bit, hurt you, had terrific stamina and could box a bit as well. I always felt Marvin gets a bit overrated, and would pick several middles to beat him through the years based off their styles. GGG is not one I would pick. Be a really super fight, as both men come to fight and both are fit as fiddles with power and chins. A real dream match that Hagler wins on volume of landed clean shots. Crisper kind of puncher.

Halger was done at 32 -- beaten by a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff.. Hagler looked slow. Golovkin is a much better jabber and a sharper puncher. He's also a lot bigger and stronger than Marv ever was.

In his fight before Leonard, Marvin was caught with wild shots by wide open swinger John Mugabi -- who couldn't box well and was a lot smaller than Hagler. Hagler couldn't avoid the swings so it was a battle of attrition. The only World Title Mugabi ever won was at 154 a couple years later. He had a nice winning streak going, but lightning-fisted Terry Norris slaughtered him in Mugabi's 1st title defense. Norris easily destroyed The Beast in the 1st round.

Julian Jackson was another raw swinger who wasn't a real good boxer. Jackson crushed the chinny Terry Norris with no problem. Mike McCallum was a brilliant boxer-puncher, as well as being very sharp and fast. McCallum destroyed an undefeated Julian Jackson, 29-0, in 2 rounds with a vicious body assault. Jackson later won a Middleweight Title with a savage KO of Harol Graham -- landing one of the hardest shots ever applied to a Middleweight.

Middleweight Champ Michael Nunn worked his record to 36-0, and P4P #1 in the world -- when he was favored to beat young James Toney.. Toney was behind on points late in the fight, when he knocked Nunn out in an explosive fashion not seen in the Middleweight Division for many years -- marking the only time Nunn was ever stopped in his life. Toney went on to battle Mike McCallum to a draw in possibly the hardest fought and most brutal Middleweight Fight ever.

After Leonard beat Hagler he fought at 160 for a couple more years ... but abandoned the title.. They tried in vain to match Ray with the super talented Middleweights of that period.. Ray wouldn't fight anyone good.. Eventually he fled to 154 and was dominantly out-boxed by Terry Norris.

Kalan wrote:Halger was done at 32 -- beaten by a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff.. Hagler looked slow. Golovkin is a much better jabber and a sharper puncher. He's also a lot bigger and stronger than Marv ever was.

In his fight before Leonard, Marvin was caught with wild shots by wide open swinger John Mugabi -- who couldn't box well and was a lot smaller than Hagler. Hagler couldn't avoid the swings so it was a battle of attrition. The only World Title Mugabi ever won was at 154 a couple years later. He had a nice winning streak going, but lightning-fisted Terry Norris slaughtered him in Mugabi's 1st title defense. Norris easily destroyed The Beast in the 1st round.

Julian Jackson was another raw swinger who wasn't a real good boxer. Jackson crushed the chinny Terry Norris with no problem. Mike McCallum was a brilliant boxer-puncher, as well as being very sharp and fast. McCallum destroyed an undefeated Julian Jackson, 29-0, in 2 rounds with a vicious body assault. Jackson later won a Middleweight Title with a savage KO of Harol Graham -- landing one of the hardest shots ever applied to a Middleweight.

Middleweight Champ Michael Nunn worked his record to 36-0, and P4P #1 in the world -- when he was favored to beat young James Toney.. Toney was behind on points late in the fight, when he knocked Nunn out in an explosive fashion not seen in the Middleweight Division for many years -- marking the only time Nunn was ever stopped in his life. Toney went on to battle Mike McCallum to a draw in possibly the hardest fought and most brutal Middleweight Fight ever.

After Leonard beat Hagler he fought at 160 for a couple more years ... but abandoned the title.. They tried in vain to match Ray with the super talented Middleweights of that period.. Ray wouldn't fight anyone good.. Eventually he fled to 154 and was dominantly out-boxed by Terry Norris.

And Golovkin has failed to dent the best two opponents he has fought raising the question that is he actually as good as you seem to think? Certainly I would say that Hagler would beat anybody Golovkin has fought without a doubt, I wouldn't be so sure about Golovkin against Hagler's.

Leonard didn't fight at Middleweight again after Hagler. He was chasing titles in divisions above, chasing money and having the WBC grant his every wish. McCallum was a master technician but at the time couldn't draw flies to a dump so the money hungry Sugarman wouldn't have considered him. The fact that McCallum was being outboxed by Welterweight Donald Curry before landing what some considered a lucky shot, then in his next fight lost to Kalambay meant that he was off the radar for Leonard because he brought nothing to the table.

Flump wrote: And Golovkin has failed to dent the best two opponents he has fought raising the question that is he actually as good as you seem to think? Certainly I would say that Hagler would beat anybody Golovkin has fought without a doubt, I wouldn't be so sure about Golovkin against Hagler's.

Leonard didn't fight at Middleweight again after Hagler. He was chasing titles in divisions above, chasing money and having the WBC grant his every wish. McCallum was a master technician but at the time couldn't draw flies to a dump so the money hungry Sugarman wouldn't have considered him. The fact that McCallum was being outboxed by Welterweight Donald Curry before landing what some considered a lucky shot, then in his next fight lost to Kalambay meant that he was off the radar for Leonard because he brought nothing to the table

GGG knocked Daniel Jacobs down and certainly marked him up... He landed terrific shots on Canelo and certainly marked him as well... Everybody called that fight a robbery and said one of the judges needs to be gone... If a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff and a smaller guy like the wild swinging John Mugabi can tag Hagler up like crazy, I certainly see the 6'1" X 180 pound Jacobs and Canelo out-boxing and beating Marv. He did get beaten 3 X and none of them have.

As far as Leonard looking for other titles??? He made easy pickings Lalonde boil off 7 pounds below his normal fighting weight so he could make several million dollars fighting for a "vacant" title.. Andre Ward did the same thing to Light Heavyweight Champion Chad Dawson making him boil down... Both Lalonde and Dawson gassed out quickly -- but at least Ward didn't claim the Light Heavyweight Title after making Dawson come down to 168.. Leonard abandoned the Middleweight Title and defended his 168 pound title at 160 -- against who and when he wanted.. Nice.

Leonard was indeed a nob post 1984 and the WBC facilitated it.

Interested to see that you think Jacobs and Alvarez would beat Hagler. How about Willie Monroe jr, after all his uncle beat Hagler?

Willie Monroe is too damned timid to beat Hagler, and I'm judging from his most recent fight with Saunders.

If you get a 2nd World Title Shot against an undefeated, but seemingly beatable man, you go for it like crazy. Especially since he talked it up and made fun of Saunders. Monroe is taller and bigger than Marv, with better range, but I think Hagler would be on him like GGG and force brutal exchanges.

One thing is, Marvin was too timid in the Leonard fight. He took some hard shots from Hearns and Mugabi -- so why not go after the smaller Leonard and make it another battle of attrition??? Sheeet man, I shook my head as he tried to box Leonard for 4 rounds in an orthodox stance. WTF??? I picked Leonard to win but I thought it would be a brutally fought fight like GGG-Canelo or Joshua-Klitschko or Ali-Frazier 1. You bust your ass in those mega fights.

If it was 'brutally' fought, Leonard wouldn't have won. Not surprising you're wrong even when you claim to be right.

Kalan wrote:Willie Monroe is too damned timid to beat Hagler, and I'm judging from his most recent fight with Saunders.

If you get a 2nd World Title Shot against an undefeated, but seemingly beatable man, you go for it like crazy. Especially since he talked it up and made fun of Saunders. Monroe is taller and bigger than Marv, with better range, but I think Hagler would be on him like GGG and force brutal exchanges.

One thing is, Marvin was too timid in the Leonard fight. He took some hard shots from Hearns and Mugabi -- so why not go after the smaller Leonard and make it another battle of attrition??? Sheeet man, I shook my head as he tried to box Leonard for 4 rounds in an orthodox stance. WTF??? I picked Leonard to win but I thought it would be a brutally fought fight like GGG-Canelo or Joshua-Klitschko or Ali-Frazier 1. You bust your ass in those mega fights.

Really? Even though he has better range? How about Marco Antonio Rubio, could he have outfought and disheartened Martin like he did brutal powerpuncher David Lemiuex? Remember that was the Canadian's first defeat, which makes it even more impressive from the rugged Rubio. If Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard can all punch Marvin in the face then surely Lemieux could have done and by extension Rubio?

Seamus wrote:Reggie Johnson was pretty good, he just wasn't in Marvin Hagler's class. Funny how well Toney does in fantasy matchups on BoxRec against the likes of alltime greats, yet in the real world he didn't look too hot against the likes of Johnson, Dave Tiberi, Montell Griffin, Drake Thadzi, and Terry McGroom.

Give him a pass for McGroom, that guys a legend.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:If it was 'brutally' fought, Leonard wouldn't have won. Not surprising you're wrong even when you claim to be right.

Don't underestimate Leonard's ability to handle pressure. SRL had brilliant footwork, and could twist and turn on a dime. Ray could flurry hard in tough exchanges when trapped -- which you saw examples of during the fight. Then Ray had the foot-speed to pivot hard and peel off back to the center of the ring.. You don't necessarily win by being super aggressive and walking through shots, but a pitched battle sure as Hell breaks out.. That's the kind of closer, harder war I expected, but it didn't materialize.. Even if Hagler came much harder and earlier he might not have won -- given Leonard's superior craft.

He handled pressure well... He fought a great fight -- actually he fought Duran's fight... He didn't win in Montreal...he won the trilogy. That's better.

Kalan wrote:He handled pressure well... He fought a great fight -- actually he fought Duran's fight... He didn't win in Montreal...he won the trilogy. That's better.

He fought Duran's fight. LOL!

Yeah... It was a mistake all right... Leonard fought Duran's fight and didn't do that badly... Had he move and boxed more he would have done better.

Funny how the 1st Leonard-Duran fight was closely contested...and in the rematch Leonard made Duran quit... Leonard learned more in the 1st fight than Duran learned and was able to craft a winning formula going forward... Who won the Leonard vs Duran trilogy/??? ... It's not a trick question.

Kalan wrote:Funny how the 1st Leonard-Duran fight was closely contested...and in the rematch Leonard made Duran quit... Leonard learned more in the 1st fight than Duran learned and was able to craft a winning formula going forward... Who won the Leonard vs Duran trilogy/??? ... It's not a trick question.

The first Duran vs Leonard fight was not a close fight at all, kalan. Don't get fooled by the American media.

I DON'T listen to the American media, by-n-large... Those bastards gave us Donald Trump by not being vigilant enough in their reporting... I believe my own eyes -- and if somebody doesn't believe that fight was competitive they know absolutely nothing about Boxing... I had Duran winning by the way.

Sugar Ray had Leonard winning... When Ray raised both hands to claim victory following the fight Duran gave him a nasty shove... Roberto did win -- but that was one of the most unsportsmanlike actions I've ever seen from a World Boxing Champion.. That was a great fight -- don't provoke another exchange.