Ken Norton's legacy?

[Tony1244]

In their primes I'd go with Norton by decision or late stoppage against Lyle. Lyle was a very good puncher but slightly less than Foreman or Shavers. My guess is Norton could have weathered a Lyle storm and as others said established the jab.

You really think so? (obviously). Norton might have weathered Lyle, but I'm not sure either way, but I lean towards a Lyle late KO even though Kenny is one of my all time favourites.

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

[oogiebe]

In their primes I'd go with Norton by decision or late stoppage against Lyle. Lyle was a very good puncher but slightly less than Foreman or Shavers. My guess is Norton could have weathered a Lyle storm and as others said established the jab.

You really think so? (obviously). Norton might have weathered Lyle, but I'm not sure either way, but I lean towards a Lyle late KO even though Kenny is one of my all time favourites.

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

[Tony1244]

You really think so? (obviously). Norton might have weathered Lyle, but I'm not sure either way, but I lean towards a Lyle late KO even though Kenny is one of my all time favourites.

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Regarding Quarry, I think it also had a lot to do with his opposition.

Quarry. Patterson, Ellis, Bugner, Machen, Lyle were relatively all bunched together. Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton were on a higher rung IMO.

[oogiebe]

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Regarding Quarry, I think it also had a lot to do with his opposition.

Quarry. Patterson, Ellis, Bugner, Machen, Lyle were relatively all bunched together. Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton were on a higher rung IMO.

True...his trouble with cuts as mentioned above got in the way. Not saying he'd be a champ, but would have done far better. I guess that's a PhD in "DUH"

[Tony1244]

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Regarding Quarry, I think it also had a lot to do with his opposition.

Quarry. Patterson, Ellis, Bugner, Machen, Lyle were relatively all bunched together. Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton were on a higher rung IMO.

True...his trouble with cuts as mentioned above got in the way. Not saying he'd be a champ, but would have done far better. I guess that's a PhD in "DUH"

I don't see Jerry beating Ali, Foreman, or Frazier cuts or no cuts, but maybe he would have beaten your guy Kenny Norton if he hadn't cut?

[oogiebe]

Regarding Quarry, I think it also had a lot to do with his opposition.

Quarry. Patterson, Ellis, Bugner, Machen, Lyle were relatively all bunched together. Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton were on a higher rung IMO.

True...his trouble with cuts as mentioned above got in the way. Not saying he'd be a champ, but would have done far better. I guess that's a PhD in "DUH"

I don't see Jerry beating Ali, Foreman, or Frazier cuts or no cuts, but maybe he would have beaten your guy Kenny Norton if he hadn't cut?

Oh no doubt...100%.

[Kalan]

I was a huge Ali fan and remember being really upset (I was a kid) when he fought Lyle until the 11th. I couldn't tell if Ali was playing a bit as you say, but I was damned nervous.

Ali-Lyle was a very strange fight. Considering how well Ali outboxed Bugner a couple months later and the Thrilla in Manila was a bit after that, it looked like Ali wasn't trying against Lyle. But who knows?

Kalan knows...

Shet yo mouth.. Lyle had a very weird idea... He was not a real good boxer, but he told everybody he was going to beat Ali by outboxing him... Nobody took him seriously... Lyle had been outboxed by Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Young and was trying to figure it out... He worked hard on the jab and countering which were his downfalls.. He was very slow with both skills... Young was only 13-4-2 when he finessed Lyle... Ronnie was pissed as Hell about it... That was 3 months before he fought Ali and he was determined to polish up his boxing game, though he was well into his 30's.

Ronnie thought he was making progress when he got the unexpected Title Fight... He studied films of Ali..."This is what a boxer does" he said. "He finds flaws in his opponent and I see a couple." Lyle even told Howard Cosell he was going to beat Ali on points which was a joke people laughed at.

Lyle actually boxed well versus Ali... He didn't look fast or slick, but he was thinking real hard... He boxed with a lot of control... He won the first few rounds and Dundee started getting on Ali... "What the Hell are you doing out there? You want to blow this fight?" Lyle had a lead on 2 cards going into the 11th, but it wasn't as big a lead as it should have been.. Judges weren't used to Ronnie out-boxing people... He should have been 5 rounds ahead, but he WAS ahead...

Ronnie missed an important piece of the puzzle... He underestimated Ali's ability to make adjustments... Dundee told Ali he needed to come out throwing... Ali switched gears completely and attacked hard in the 11th... It really took Lyle by surprise. He he hadn't prepared for the tactic... Before Lyle could switch to "fighter" mode from "boxer" mode, Ali landed a barrage of shots on Lyle and the referee jumped in and stopped it... Ronnie immediately turned his wrath on the referee, walking after him and shouting loudly at him... Chickie Ferrara was mad as Hell at the ref.. But Ronnie blew it.

It was a legitimate stoppage... You can't stay in defense mode if somebody is throwing the sink at you.. You need to return fire... Especially if they're behind late in the fight cuz their killer instinct is switched on.

[Controversial]

Ronnie missed an important piece of the puzzle... He underestimated Ali's ability to make adjustments... Dundee told Ali he needed to come out throwing... Ali switched gears completely and attacked hard in the 11th... It really took Lyle by surprise. He he hadn't prepared for the tactic... Before Lyle could switch to "fighter" mode from "boxer" mode, Ali landed a barrage of shots on Lyle and the referee jumped in and stopped it... Ronnie immediately turned his wrath on the referee, walking after him and shouting loudly at him... Chickie Ferrara was mad as Hell at the ref.. But Ronnie blew it.

It was a legitimate stoppage... You can't stay in defense mode if somebody is throwing the sink at you.. You need to return fire... Especially if they're behind late in the fight cuz their killer instinct is switched on.

You've changed your tune.

The officiating was a farce .... Lyle was never down and it was a terrible stoppage. Lyle was winning on points so they stopped it. Lyle immediately protested, screaming at the referee ....

[Kalan]

You got me.... I did change my mind about that particular stoppage....

I've seen so many hurt boxers in the last few years -- I don't mind as much when a referee jumps in now.... I think if more refs acted a just a tad earlier we would see fewer damaged fighters.... I'm giving them more the benefit of the doubt now

Don't look like you're getting into trouble if you don't want to be stopped.... Referees have discretion... They may use it.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ronnie missed an important piece of the puzzle... He underestimated Ali's ability to make adjustments... Dundee told Ali he needed to come out throwing... Ali switched gears completely and attacked hard in the 11th... It really took Lyle by surprise. He he hadn't prepared for the tactic... Before Lyle could switch to "fighter" mode from "boxer" mode, Ali landed a barrage of shots on Lyle and the referee jumped in and stopped it... Ronnie immediately turned his wrath on the referee, walking after him and shouting loudly at him... Chickie Ferrara was mad as Hell at the ref.. But Ronnie blew it.

It was a legitimate stoppage... You can't stay in defense mode if somebody is throwing the sink at you.. You need to return fire... Especially if they're behind late in the fight cuz their killer instinct is switched on.

You've changed your tune.

The officiating was a farce .... Lyle was never down and it was a terrible stoppage. Lyle was winning on points so they stopped it. Lyle immediately protested, screaming at the referee ....

[oogiebe]

You got me.... I did change my mind about that particular stoppage....

I've seen so many hurt boxers in the last few years -- I don't mind as much when a referee jumps in now.... I think if more refs acted a just a tad earlier we would see fewer damaged fighters.... I'm giving them more the benefit of the doubt now

Don't look like you're getting into trouble if you don't want to be stopped.... Referees have discretion... They may use it.

To quote yourself, BS!

[Kalan]

FO Stupid.... That was what you promised to do remember???

[oogiebe]

FO Stupid.... That was what you promised to do remember???

Nope...you suck...you hate...you prate on and on...I'm here to watch yer ass, fella! You called me stupid! I love your posts! Funniest sh#t I've ever seen! How could I not follow it!

[Kalan]

You ARE stupid. FO creep.

[oogiebe]

You ARE stupid. FO creep.

I may be stupid, but I'm not a complete putz like you! Maybe we can graduate grade school and use big-boy words.

[hhaehre]

You really think so? (obviously). Norton might have weathered Lyle, but I'm not sure either way, but I lean towards a Lyle late KO even though Kenny is one of my all time favourites.

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Lyle was the perfect fit for Quarry, Jerry liked to counter and didn't mind a slow pace. He could also take the odd power punch from Lyle. I always thought a motivated in shape Quarry could have made things difficult for Foreman.

[oogiebe]

Certainly not out of the question. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the Norton-Quarry fight (which I saw live, my claim to fame) and Quarry-Lyle outcomes. Think Quarry could have had a chance against Norton if he wasn't cut?

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Lyle was the perfect fit for Quarry, Jerry liked to counter and didn't mind a slow pace. He could also take the odd power punch from Lyle. I always thought a motivated in shape Quarry could have made things difficult for Foreman.

That last thought is an interesting one. I'll have to think about it, although first thought is the obvious...Foreman KO. Hmmmm...

[hhaehre]

Quarry was such an enigma to me. Sometimes looking like a champ and sometimes like a chump, and mostly a damn tough contender to beat.

Lyle was the perfect fit for Quarry, Jerry liked to counter and didn't mind a slow pace. He could also take the odd power punch from Lyle. I always thought a motivated in shape Quarry could have made things difficult for Foreman.

That last thought is an interesting one. I'll have to think about it, although first thought is the obvious...Foreman KO. Hmmmm...

A Foreman KO could well happen, but George said that he purposely dodged Quarry. I'm sure that's partially George being nice, but he probably also recognised a stylistically difficult fight. Foreman also didn't look good vs another rugged counter puncher in Peralta.

[oogiebe]

Lyle was the perfect fit for Quarry, Jerry liked to counter and didn't mind a slow pace. He could also take the odd power punch from Lyle. I always thought a motivated in shape Quarry could have made things difficult for Foreman.

That last thought is an interesting one. I'll have to think about it, although first thought is the obvious...Foreman KO. Hmmmm...

A Foreman KO could well happen, but George said that he purposely dodged Quarry. I'm sure that's partially George being nice, but he probably also recognised a stylistically difficult fight. Foreman also didn't look good vs another rugged counter puncher in Peralta.

Peralta II was my favorite Foreman fight. You make a good point. He also couldn't deck Chuvalo who always reminded me of Quarry to some extent (or vice versa), but Quarry was a better boxer and not quite as tough, although tough in his own right. IMO.

[Kalan]

You ARE stupid. FO creep.

I may be stupid, but I'm not a complete putz like you! Maybe we can graduate grade school and use big-boy words.

Maybe you can graduate from kindergarten. I use a full vocabulary when I post on political sites. Here if you use a word like rapier, which is a great word to describe a very sharp, punishing jab, some people are in bolivian

[gilgamesh]

In bolivian?

I hope that's a joke

[oogiebe]

You ARE stupid. FO creep.

I may be stupid, but I'm not a complete putz like you! Maybe we can graduate grade school and use big-boy words.

Maybe you can graduate from kindergarten. I use a full vocabulary when I post on political sites. Here if you use a word like rapier, which is a great word to describe a very sharp, punishing jab, some people are in bolivian

Last I looked a rapier is a fencing sward last I looked.

[oogiebe]

In bolivian?

I hope that's a joke

Everything he posts is a joke, so why not?!

[oogiebe]

In bolivian?

I hope that's a joke

I guess I'm somewhat in South America?

[gilgamesh]

I may be stupid, but I'm not a complete putz like you! Maybe we can graduate grade school and use big-boy words.

Maybe you can graduate from kindergarten. I use a full vocabulary when I post on political sites. Here if you use a word like rapier, which is a great word to describe a very sharp, punishing jab, some people are in bolivian

Last I looked a rapier is a fencing sward last I looked.

Yeah, but Fencing is sort of "jabbing" with swords so I think "A Rapier-like jab" is an apt description for an effective or skillful jab. Just playing Devil's advocate here