BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 16:58

SteveO wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 15:58 It's WAY too early to try and rate Joshua.
Better to wait until his career is over and then judge him.

I make this argument anytime anybody ever tries to rank an active fighter in the annals of All Time status, but people just keep right on doing it anyway.

It would take an absolutely astonishing feat to be considered the best of all time while you were still active. It wouldn't be impossible I don't guess, but it's hard to imagine what kinda achievements you'd have to have under your belt to receive that kinda status while still an active fighter.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:41

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 16:58

SteveO wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 15:58 It's WAY too early to try and rate Joshua.
Better to wait until his career is over and then judge him.

I make this argument anytime anybody ever tries to rank an active fighter in the annals of All Time status, but people just keep right on doing it anyway.

It would take an absolutely astonishing feat to be considered the best of all time while you were still active. It wouldn't be impossible I don't guess, but it's hard to imagine what kinda achievements you'd have to have under your belt to receive that kinda status while still an active fighter.

A lot said of jordan in his rookie year "the best player they have ever seen"

When i used to watch roy in the 90s i thought as many others "best boxer ever"

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:44

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:41

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 16:58

I make this argument anytime anybody ever tries to rank an active fighter in the annals of All Time status, but people just keep right on doing it anyway.

It would take an absolutely astonishing feat to be considered the best of all time while you were still active. It wouldn't be impossible I don't guess, but it's hard to imagine what kinda achievements you'd have to have under your belt to receive that kinda status while still an active fighter.

A lot said of jordan in his rookie year "the best player they have ever seen"

When i used to watch roy in the 90s i thought as many others "best boxer ever"

Ok

Thinking it, and it being so isn't exactly the same thing.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:44

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:41

A lot said of jordan in his rookie year "the best player they have ever seen"

When i used to watch roy in the 90s i thought as many others "best boxer ever"

Ok

Thinking it, and it being so isn't exactly the same thing.

Also in your criteria of who has the best record/achievemants is automaticly the goat cant be

Cause often enough a boxer who achieved way less than his opponent yet still beat him

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:55

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:44

Ok

Thinking it, and it being so isn't exactly the same thing.

Also in your criteria of who has the best record/achievemants is automaticly the goat cant be

Cause often enough a boxer who achieved way less than his opponent yet still beat him

This usually happens because the fighter who achieved a lot more is a lot older, and no longer in his physical prime while the other guy is still young with everything to prove. Not always, but often this is the case.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:00

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:55

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:49

Also in your criteria of who has the best record/achievemants is automaticly the goat cant be

Cause often enough a boxer who achieved way less than his opponent yet still beat him

This usually happens because the fighter who achieved a lot more is a lot older, and no longer in his physical prime while the other guy is still young with everything to prove. Not always, but often this is the case.

So was gary russell way to old when he faced the previously unachieved lomachenko who had a record of 1 loss 1 win and gary 24 wins in 24 fights?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:09

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:00

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:55

This usually happens because the fighter who achieved a lot more is a lot older, and no longer in his physical prime while the other guy is still young with everything to prove. Not always, but often this is the case.

So was gary russell way to old when he faced the previously unachieved lomachenko who had a record of 1 loss 1 win and gary 24 wins in 24 fights?

Lomachenko is one of the greatest Amateurs of all time. A 2x Olympic Gold Medalist with a 396-1 record as an Amateur. He's not your average guy with so few fights. He was already an Elite talent well before he ever turned Pro.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:09

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 18:00

So was gary russell way to old when he faced the previously unachieved lomachenko who had a record of 1 loss 1 win and gary 24 wins in 24 fights?

Lomachenko is one of the greatest Amateurs of all time. A 2x Olympic Gold Medalist with a 396-1 record as an Amateur. He's not your average guy with so few fights. He was already an Elite talent well before he ever turned Pro.

True

So was roy. When boxers like roy or loma are brilliant in the amateurs and brilliant in pro than why cant i consider as potential goats? Because they dont have over 150 fights like armstrong or robinson?

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:39

oogiebe wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 15:25

ValMar wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 15:24

OK, you are right.

That wasn't at you Val...it was a general response, just to be clear.

arrogant as well. On top of the low boxing knowledge

candyslim wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 19:09 It's way too early too early to say. People are usually slow to credit a fighter as being an ATG while they're still active never mind after 22 fights. Lennox Lewis was never respected the way he is today in the first half of his career.

I don't know but I imagine in the forties they were talking about Louis as being a bit stiff and lacking fluidity and head movement, being a bit chinny (Schmeling), fighting a succession of bums, and getting a complete boxing lesson from a Light-heavyweight (Conn)‘. It's natural that recognition is awarded much later, look at heavyweights Pyotr Tchaikovsky and Vincent Van Gogh to name but two

You can sneer about AJ's perceived shortcomings all you want, but so far he doesn't have a Ross Purity, a Hasim Rahman, a Leon Spinks and so on and so forth. Not a bad start I'd say but I'm resisting the urge to make extravagant claims for Joshua just yet.

MasterG wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 19:37

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 17:39

oogiebe wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 15:25
That wasn't at you Val...it was a general response, just to be clear.

arrogant as well. On top of the low boxing knowledge

Wuuupa

Do you think Anthony Joshua is better than Frank Bruno, if you dont know who Bruno s here is his record.

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/505

Also here is a photo of him too

photo hosting software


While you are considering that question in my opinion AJ while a decent fighter is very privileged to have won the titles he has in this era. Back in the 80's and 90's AJ would never have got past Mike Tyson and many people think Tyson is not worthy of a top 10 status. I like AJ but imo hes nothing better than Frank Bruno.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 20:00

candyslim wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 19:09 It's way too early too early to say. People are usually slow to credit a fighter as being an ATG while they're still active never mind after 22 fights. Lennox Lewis was never respected the way he is today in the first half of his career.

I don't know but I imagine in the forties they were talking about Louis as being a bit stiff and lacking fluidity and head movement, being a bit chinny (Schmeling), fighting a succession of bums, and getting a complete boxing lesson from a Light-heavyweight (Conn)‘. It's natural that recognition is awarded much later, look at heavyweights Pyotr Tchaikovsky and Vincent Van Gogh to name but two

You can sneer about AJ's perceived shortcomings all you want, but so far he doesn't have a Ross Purity, a Hasim Rahman, a Leon Spinks and so on and so forth. Not a bad start I'd say but I'm resisting the urge to make extravagant claims for Joshua just yet.

Excellent post

Nostalgia is a hell of a power

ValMar wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 13:27 If he defeats Wilder, Fury and Usyk - he might be among the top 5.

Wuuupa wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 13:33

ValMar wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 13:27 If he defeats Wilder, Fury and Usyk - he might be among the top 5.

Top 5

He is much taller stronger than ali and louis, like a super heavyweight ag a heavyweight. In terms of record beating the best cw ever usyk and cleaning out the division reighing for a decade would put him up there with the axhievemants ali had.

Lets not forget, all so called atg top 3 hw had dark moments. Ali with his countless loses to norton (i know he got the gifts), marciano fighting 80% cab drivers same as louis.

danconnollyeire wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 07:33 Fvck, asfkll is back

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 13:34 He's better than vitali. Hilarious people think he's an atg with zero wins of note.

danconnollyeire wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 07:33 Fvck, asfkll is back

Loki wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 09:10

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 13:34 He's better than vitali. Hilarious people think he's an atg with zero wins of note.

Vitali would box AJs ears off.