BoxRec

bigman1968 wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 09:07 We both have no idea what was on AJ mind...

Well since he was an experienced, world champion, I assume it was stick to the battle plan and get the W.

Worrying about being overly impressive and trying to outshine a rival's recent performance, is rookie stuff.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 05:10 I don’t know if AJ misread the situation, since he followed-up the third-round knockdown by landing an enormous right-hand that connected bang on the button. Unfortunately, the Mexican didn’t seem troubled by the knockdown or that monstrous shot that immediately followed it.

Things like this happens. And Joshua should have taken a step-back and regrouped instead of standing in the trenches and trading.

The main problem, I feel, relates to AJ’s willingness to sacrifice his height and reach advantage to engage at mid-range, since his style is all about power, throwing huge hooks and uppercuts, whilst possessing slow hands.

He loads-up far too much for my liking, which adversely affects his footwork, his hand-speed and stamina.

Whenever Joshua stupidly tried to trade and go toe-to-toe with an opponent that has much faster hands than himself, then this has inevitably resulted in him taking more punches than he was throwing.

Another huge issue that Joshua has is related to him over-committing when he throws the right hand. He loads-up, plants his feet, twists his hips and becomes squared-up.

And every time he threw that shot, he essentially becomes locked-down, preventing him from following-up with other punches and also preventing him from maintaining a safe distance, since his positioning doesn’t provide him with an easy escape route.

Basically, AJ’s stylistic flaws and penchant to plant his feet, provided Andy Ruiz Jr. ample opportunities to time Joshua’s shots, close the distance and land his own clubbing hook counter combos. The Brit was being punished almost every time he fully-committed himself to throwing a punch.

Joshua also gave up too much ground, perhaps because he was gassed after loading up so often and maybe felt threatened by Ruiz Jr’s constant presence, as well as jabs to the chest and arms, since AJ wasn’t given enough opportunities to recover from the close quarter exchanges.

Ruiz Jr. was also able to close the distance seemingly at will with his lance-like straight right hand thrown from the outside (much akin to the effectiveness of Pacquiao’s equivalent shot against De La Hoya).

What was also really strange to me, was AJ’s inability to follow Robert McCracken’s orders! Team Joshua’s game-plan for the Ruiz Jr. fight was perfect, but the Brit somehow refrained from executing it.

Anyway, it seems a shame to focus on the mistakes that Anthony Joshua made when Andy Ruiz Jr. fought so well.

While I don’t disagree with most of what you have written, I think everything follows from that one powerful hook which landed on Joshua’s ear and scrambled his brain. He never properly recovered from that shot and showed clear signs of concussion.

Everything follows from that. His vulnerability to even passably hard shots, his inability to follow instructions, or defend himself properly, and his bewilderment as to what had happened and was happening to him.

You made the comparision to Lennox’s one punch KO at the hands of Hasim Rahman as opposed to Joshua’s beatdown by Andy Ruiz. What if that Rahman shot didn’t keep Lennox down, what if it concussed him but he found the wherewithal to get up and try to muddle through despite being totally fukced by the punch? Do you not think that might be remembered as Lewis being given a complete hiding by a superior opponent?

Genuine question I'm not trying to score points.

All of the above and more is what makes the rematch so intriguing , Was Aj concussed and did'nt know what was going on , possible , i know for a fact you can be hit and just fight on instinct alone , its happenned to me , and i know others , its happenned to , plenty of guys out there who can tell you, they can't remember a rnd, or even the last few rnds after copping one .
Or was Ruiz simply too good , and under estimated , was it a combination of both , was it the tactics , all wrong , could be but has pointed out by someone else , they were working at the begining , Did Ortiz read the tactics easily and adjust , lots of if and buts , which make it interesting .

BUT.

The one thing that i do think contributed, and is actually disgraceful for a fella at that level , with , the recources behind him , and the money to employ the best , is AJ'S conditioning , and i mean that, its woeful and disgraceful , . It was'nt just this fitght he's known to gas out he's done it before ,

Now some fighters have a rock solid chin , no matter what , but some fighters , there chin drops dramaticly has there fitness drops , i suspect AJ is one of these , , then add on all the weight training , growing muscles he does'nt need , becoming a big stiff plank , and its not good , . Thers hundreds of fighters out there who work for a living , train part time , then go out and fight a 10 rnd war , with someone of equal calibre , and still have some left in the tank ,, AJ is a profesional super rich world champ , and he can't do 6 hard rnds , its actually a disgrace to his camp

I don't dispute what you say about his conditioning but that is a direct result of his overly muscled physique. McCracken has some questions to answer about that, but then I imagine that despite his charm, AJ can be quite willful. I mean he should lay of the weights but I'm not sure I'd want to be the one tell him

As an AJ fan I was disappointed that he lost but it certainly has added another layer to the heavyweight scene. I think the rematch is shaping up to be as intriguing and exciting as the long awaited and now deferred, unification.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 09:23While I don’t disagree with most of what you have written, I think everything follows from that one powerful hook which landed on Joshua’s ear and scrambled his brain. He never properly recovered from that shot and showed clear signs of concussion.

I believe we saw many of AJ’s flaws during the second round, since it was clear that Andy Ruiz Jr. was exploiting Joshua’s slow hand-speed and penchant for planting his feet and loading-up, because the Mexican-American pounced on the Brit as soon as he chose to engage at close quarters.

For me, it was slightly reminiscent of the Garcia-Khan fight, where it seemed inevitable that the American’s counters would eventually hit the target on the defensively irresponsible Brit.

I felt that was what kind of happened to AJ, because Joshua got too greedy and stood within punching range for too long.

That doesn't mean I wasn't shocked about seeing Anthony Joshua hitting the deck, even though his flaws against Andy Ruiz Jr. seemed blatantly obvious. AJ was the favourite after all.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 09:23 Everything follows from that [third round]. His vulnerability to even passably hard shots, his inability to follow instructions, or defend himself properly, and his bewilderment as to what had happened and was happening to him.

It’s very likely that AJ’s senses were scrambled from the close of the third round onwards, much akin to how Carl Froch would have felt for several rounds for his first bout against George Groves, except the 'Cobra' eventually recovered but Joshua didn't.

That being said, Andy Ruiz Jr. had an excellent second round and clearly troubled AJ during those particular three minutes. He never veered away from his game-plan for the remainder of the fight.

Even Robert McCracken was constantly telling Joshua during the one minute intervals to stop making the same mistakes over-and-over again after the first round onwards.

I have no doubt that Joshua would have been more effective against Andy Ruiz Jr. had he been compos mentis from the fourth round onwards, but we shouldn’t take away from the fact that the Mexican-American had an excellent second round.

Ruiz Jr. would have landed some decent shots on AJ at some point, since the Brit either loaded up on right hands (leaving himself open to being countered) or chose to engage in toe-to-toe trench warfare (against an opponent with faster hands than himself), whereby both fighters were exchanging hooks.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 09:23 You made the comparision to Lennox’s one punch KO at the hands of Hasim Rahman as opposed to Joshua’s beatdown by Andy Ruiz. What if that Rahman shot didn’t keep Lennox down, what if it concussed him but he found the wherewithal to get up and try to muddle through despite being totally fukced by the punch? Do you not think that might be remembered as Lewis being given a complete hiding by a superior opponent?

Good question and I can only speculate.

Lennox Lewis and Hasim Rahman had two fights that spanned nine rounds. The Brit was comfortably beating the American during their first encounter, until that devastating blow landed.

Their rematch was more of the same, except Lewis was sharper and the American struggled to connect.

Barring the knockout, I don't think the American even won a round.

Had Lennox recovered from the fifth-round knockdown in the first fight against Rahman, resulting in his senses being scrambled for the remainder of their encounter, there would have been an inevitable and clear-cut pendulum swing from the fighter who had initially gained ownership of the winning momentum, Lewis, to the underdog who had scored the knockdown, Rahman.

For the Joshua-Ruiz Jr. bout, the first round was pretty even, since both fighters were feeling each other out. I thought the Mexican-American comfortably won the second round and landed some excellent blows. And we all know what happened in the third…

I guess the point I’m making is that Ruiz Jr. was highly-effective from the get-go, whereas Rahman wasn’t. There wouldn't have been a pendulum swing of the winning momentum, since the fight was clearly very competitive from the opening bell onwards.

We'll never know for sure, but I feel we shouldn't try to compare apples to oranges.

I think I need to watch that second round again because I thought Joshua was more or less in control of the fight ... until he wasn't

I did think though that Joshua didn't look right even before the fight began, but there again I knew the result before I started watching, so I'm very willing to admit I don't know whether I'd have noticed anything odd about his demeanour/ behaviour if I'd been watching live.

It was interesting to hear what Michael Venom page had to say about him being very likely concussed before coming into the ring, maybe from a week or so before. I don't know about that but it did make sense.

I don't want to take anything away from Andy's superb performance, but it's not easy to reconcile this awesome technical boxer, with tremendous punching power, with the little fat guy that in other fights has laboured to overcome some who are little more than journeymen or fringe contenders.

Anyway enough has been said about that. Bring on the rematch.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 11:05 I think I need to watch that second round again because I thought Joshua was more or less in control of the fight ... until he wasn't

Anyway enough has been said about that. Bring on the rematch.

Yeah, you definitely need to watch the second round again. Ruiz Jr. kept pouncing on Joshua, throwing a flurry of shots every time AJ planted his feet and stood within punching range.

This is very prevalent during the first fifteen seconds of the round, when AJ was forced to clinch. We saw it again around the two-minute mark when Joshua landed a decent shot but ended up being on the receiving end of one of Andy’s trademark clubbing flurried counters.

Not an awful lot happened during that round, but whenever AJ threw something meaningful, so anything other than feather-fisted pawing jabs thrown whilst cricling the ring, he was being countered by Ruiz Jr. and forced to retreat.

This appeared to confuse the heavy-handed Brit, because he’d found an opponent that punished him every time he tried to plant his feet to gain leverage behind his shots.

It was something that we kept seeing time-and-time again throughout the entire duration of the bout.

I feel the only way AJ wins the rematch is either via a one-punch KO or more likely, by making the fight boring and adopt a safety-first approach.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 11:05 I think I need to watch that second round again because I thought Joshua was more or less in control of the fight ... until he wasn't

I did think though that Joshua didn't look right even before the fight began, but there again I knew the result before I started watching, so I'm very willing to admit I don't know whether I'd have noticed anything odd about his demeanour/ behaviour if I'd been watching live.

It was interesting to hear what Michael Venom page had to say about him being very likely concussed before coming into the ring, maybe from a week or so before. I don't know about that but it did make sense.

I don't want to take anything away from Andy's superb performance, but it's not easy to reconcile this awesome technical boxer, with tremendous punching power, with the little fat guy that in other fights has laboured to overcome some who are little more than journeymen or fringe contenders.

Anyway enough has been said about that. Bring on the rematch.

You should definitely watch the fight again.

You appear to still be in denial.

tell us what the non denial version is ewey

jamamb wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 13:54 tell us what the non denial version is ewey

He's still clinging on to every excuse in the book.

Joshua was concussed coming into the fight
It was obvious something definitely wasn't right straight from the start
Joshua was controlling the fight until the lucky punch and was in the verge of stopping Ruiz


Etc etc.

Luckybattles wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 21:10 “Fight tall”...... What does that mean? Keep your chin up ? Stand straight up ? I thinks that’s a myth perpetuated by people who know nothing about boxing. In any case, I agree it’s a little late to be learning new things. If he has to learn things now, he is in trouble.

I think fighting tall is the correct phrase, it doesn't mean you can't tuck your chin. It means using your height and reach advantage , keeping your opponent outside of his shorter punching range, and artfully falling into a clinch when you opponent is inside so you don't get a point deducted for holding.

Then once the referee breaks you force your opponent to cross the dangerous territory again to get in punching range.

You make your opponent pay for getting into punching range with your height and arm length. While maybe using small are large lateral movements to stay off the line of the punches.

Perhaps I am in denial but I'm not so much looking for excuses as explanations. I mean Joshua has his flaws, I've never been naive enough to doubt it. He's too muscular and lacks fluidity of movement. They'd have probably said Joe Louis was a bit robotic if they knew what it meant back then, and a lack of agility didn't seem to hamper Foreman's career. Also we've seen Joshua buzzed, dropped and gasping for air but he has always come out the other side.

I was never under any illusion that Ruiz couldn't fight. I didn't pick him to win but I was telling people on here that he was a genuine world level heavyweight of comparable quality to Joe Parker. It wasn't his physique that concerned me more his previous bouts of inactivity which made me wonder how serious he was about his career.

So I rate Ruiz but do I think he is way better than all those guys Joshua has beaten with varying degrees of comfort? No I don't think so. Even if he is the best there is not a great gulf between them. Ruiz is short, durable, experienced, has good skills, decent power and he can apply pressure. Stylistically he is never going to be an ideal opponent for AJ.

As good as he was Ruiz is not superman ( witness his performances against Liakhovic, Johnson, Dimitrenko and he was taken the distance by Franklin Lawrence, a one round Stiverne victim ). I can't help thinking that the Joshua I've seen walking out at The O2, at the Millennium Stadium, at Wembley, would have had the measure of Andy, not easily necessarily, but the explanation for the upset was less how great Andy was, and more how shockingly poor AJ was.

Now if I sound like a shell-shocked, bewildered Joshua fan still desperately trying to make sense of it, I have only this to say ... "Guilty as charged M'Lud"

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 14:50 Perhaps I am in denial but I'm not so much looking for excuses as explanations. I mean Joshua has his flaws, I've never been naive enough to doubt it. He's too muscular and lacks fluidity of movement. They'd have probably said Joe Louis was a bit robotic if they knew what it meant back then, and a lack of agility didn't seem to hamper Foreman's career. Also we've seen Joshua buzzed, dropped and gasping for air but he has always come out the other side.

I was never under any illusion that Ruiz couldn't fight. I didn't pick him to win but I was telling people on here that he was a genuine world level heavyweight of comparable quality to Joe Parker. It wasn't his physique that concerned me more his previous bouts of inactivity which made me wonder how serious he was about his career.

So I rate Ruiz but do I think he is way better than all those guys Joshua has beaten with varying degrees of comfort? No I don't think so. Even if he is the best there is not a great gulf between them. Ruiz is short, durable, experienced, has good skills, decent power and he can apply pressure. Stylistically he is never going to be an ideal opponent for AJ.

As good as he was Ruiz is not superman ( witness his performances against Liakhovic, Johnson, Dimitrenko and he was taken the distance by Franklin Lawrence, a one round Stiverne victim ). I can't help thinking that the Joshua I've seen walking out at The O2, at the Millennium Stadium, at Wembley, would have had the measure of Andy, not easily necessarily, but the explanation for the upset was less how great Andy was, and more how shockingly poor AJ was.

Now if I sound like a shell-shocked, bewildered Joshua fan still desperately trying to make sense of it, I have only this to say ... "Guilty as charged M'Lud"

Fair enough.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Joshua's tactics are fairly straight forward but most guys don't have the tools to beat him because he's a big lump and takes a bit of shifting if he uses his physical advantages.

Ruiz was smart, streetwise and had the tactics and speed to exploit his weaknesses.

At the end of the day one is a natural fighter and the other is an athlete who's been made into a fighter.

I'm not knocking Joshua. He's done well for himself and has been managed very well. The timing of the Martin fight was clever on Hearn's part.

The rematch will tell us a lot about both guys.

AJ will need something far more than improved mobility alone to avenge the Ruiz Jr. loss.

It’s also likely that Andy Ruiz Jr’s pugilistic fighting style is tailor made to exploit Anthony Joshua’s flaws.

Kenny Norton was Muhammad Ali’s bogeyman. He always gave the self-proclaimed ‘The Greatest’ nightmares inside the ring.

Perhaps Andy Ruiz Jr. is AJ’s equivalent of Ali's Kenny Norton.

As the old adage goes “styles makes fights” and it’s feasible that lesser talented fighters may be far more effective against Andy Ruiz Jr. than Anthony Joshua can be.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 17:42 AJ will need something far more than improved mobility alone to avenge the Ruiz Jr. loss.

It’s also likely that Andy Ruiz Jr’s pugilistic fighting style is tailor made to exploit Anthony Joshua’s flaws.

Kenny Norton was Muhammad Ali’s bogeyman. He always gave the self-proclaimed ‘The Greatest’ nightmares inside the ring.

Perhaps Andy Ruiz Jr. is AJ’s equivalent of Ali's Kenny Norton.

As the old adage goes “styles makes fights” and it’s feasible that lesser talented fighters may be far more effective against Andy Ruiz Jr. than Anthony Joshua can be.

Can't argue with any of that. (don't fall off your chair)

Joshua's mistake was rushing in after he knocked Ruiz down. He though he could finish and got caught. He needs to fight tall from the outside and at least learn the concept of clinching (grab the arms not the waist).

oogiebe wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 17:58 Can't argue with any of that. (don't fall off your chair)

At last!

snake33 wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 18:33 Joshua's mistake was rushing in after he knocked Ruiz down. He though he could finish and got caught. He needs to fight tall from the outside and at least learn the concept of clinching (grab the arms not the waist).

It won't matter what he does, Ruiz has his number.

victor-romeo wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 14:00 I think fighting tall is the correct phrase, it doesn't mean you can't tuck your chin. It means using your height and reach advantage , keeping your opponent outside of his shorter punching range, and artfully falling into a clinch when you opponent is inside so you don't get a point deducted for holding.

Then once the referee breaks you force your opponent to cross the dangerous territory again to get in punching range.

You make your opponent pay for getting into punching range with your height and arm length. While maybe using small are large lateral movements to stay off the line of the punches.

I know. It’s a well know Adage in boxing. Maybe it means something but implies something else. Not sure if aj has to change a whole lot. He seemed to get caught in an ill advised exchange and from that point was not able to maintain his witts or ideal range

as said by another if aj comes in with more respect, boxing as he did v parker he might have a better chance.
the round 3 punch might have been a bit of a rarity in that aj was swinging wildly for the finish and left himself open.
or perhaps ruiz has a nightmare style for him and/or is the better boxer.

ruiz should have a big advantage in confidence going in to the rematch. perhaps a bout in england would reverse that somewhat.

at the moment it looks like ruiz is the better, more natural boxer, with an iron chin and fast hands, and counters. aj's kryptonite.

ewenhay wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 17:22 Fair enough.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Joshua's tactics are fairly straight forward but most guys don't have the tools to beat him because he's a big lump and takes a bit of shifting if he uses his physical advantages.

Ruiz was smart, streetwise and had the tactics and speed to exploit his weaknesses.

At the end of the day one is a natural fighter and the other is an athlete who's been made into a fighter.

I'm not knocking Joshua. He's done well for himself and has been managed very well. The timing of the Martin fight was clever on Hearn's part.

The rematch will tell us a lot about both guys.

Definitely. I just hope Joshua swallows his pride and fights Andy in the UK. He is going to need every advantage he can get.

And if he succesfully wins back his titles, then there's no reason there can't be a rubber-match at the Garden.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 17:42
Perhaps Andy Ruiz Jr. is AJ’s equivalent of Ali's Kenny Norton.

Hopefully Andy is more AJ's Leon Spinks or even Joe Frazier

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 03:25 What you've just said was pretty much Team Joshua's gameplan for the Andy Ruiz Jr. fight, which AJ either couldn't execute (because he didn't know how to) or chose not to, though I believe it was the former rather than the latter.

Here’s a transcript of the advice Robert McCracken gave to AJ during each one-minute interval…

End of Round One:
“Don't drop down to his height...

“Use your height and reach. He can't get past the jab, if you jab up and down. And he'll eventually walk onto the right hand.

“Be busier with the jab. Start shooting the odd one-two. Up on your toes, the odd one-two.

“Keep him long. Don't look to throwing hooks yet. Jab, jab, back hand.”

End of Round Two:
“When he comes in, [time Ruiz on the way in] throw the right hand.

“Relax and use your feet when you're in range. Don't go flat-footed. Be busier with the jabs, up and down and then follow up with the right hand. Look to break him down with the left-rights, use your reach and keep your chin down. Every now and then, throw the hook off the jab.”

End of Round Three:
No footage of the corner.

End of Round Four:
“Keep throwing the jab and defend with head movement. Keep your hands up when you're boxing. Don't come down to his height. He caught you with the hook, because you're loading up.

“Keep your hands up. Jab, jab, right hand. You'll break him down.”

End of Round Five:
“All you've got to do is be a little bit busier. Box a little bit more. Stick to the jabs and right hand.

“Listen to me, you can win this fight. You can beat him with your reach. Jab, jab, right hand.

“Don't look for power, look to box, because you're walking onto his shots. Whenever you've looked for hooks, he caught you. Don't look for hooks, because you're loading up.

“Listen! You've got to win these rounds. Get boxing again! All straight stuff. Keep your hands up!”

End of Round Six:
“You've got to start throwing one-two's and shoot the odd bodyshot. You have to time him. And if you hit him, you'll slow him right down.

“Jab, jab, jab and right hand. Left and right, left and right long. Uppercut and hook when you're inside. Be busier though...”

Well at least his corner had it figured out. Me, personally, I'm putting some coin on Ruiz winning the rematch. I can see the exact same fight happening again.

Ruiz has even more confidence now and Aj's number

speed kills a guy with no head movement and slow feet

Aj wont forget that 1st fight and wont fight confident.

Andy The Destroyer by KO early in the fight !!!

Any changes AJ tries to make will go out the door when he gets hit.

Why not take an easy interim fight to work on a few things like sometime before December.