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Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 02 Dec 2019, 16:46
by margaret thatcher
You think the Lewis of the Vitali fight beats a prime Bowe?
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 02 Dec 2019, 16:47
by oogiebe
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 16:46
You think the Lewis of the Vitali fight beats a prime Bowe?
not what I meant.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 02 Dec 2019, 17:12
by Tuan_Jim
stujones wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 16:35
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 16:29
Why? Because as a 23 year old in his second Olympics he got a quick stoppage over a teenage Riddick Bowe?
Do you think Tyrell Biggs always does Lewis because he beat him in 84? Tillman always does Tyson because he did it twice in the amateurs?
No nothing about that - but he was more athletic than Bowe in my opinion a sharper puncher imo and quicker. Bowe wasn't that difficult to hit and I think Lewis would have beaten him to the punch.
He was better than him in 1993 IMO and Bowe was shot by 1996/1997. Most of the common opponent performances favours Lewis - Briggs, Holyfield, Golota - he was just sharper.
Bowe would have always have had the punchers chance, given Lewis' resistance issues at times - but Holyfield hurt Bowe, Hide hurt Bowe, Lewis' power was on a different level and for me was sharper than Bowe - just quicker, more athletic.
Fair enough. But Bowe was an offensive fighter and while he took chances versus most opponents he did, against hitters like Cooper and Gonzalez (who gave him an authentic beating in the amateurs), protect his chin. Bowe hated Lewis and would not have fought him in the oafish way he did Hide, Mathis et al.
I'd say Bowe was much better against a prime Holyfield than Lewis was an old Holyfield btw. Also, the opinion Lewis was better than Bowe in 93 is a curious one. He was poor versus Tucker and Bruno, and then awful against Phil Jackson. The contempt he treated McCall with blew up in his face. I wouldn't give pre-Manny Lewis a chance versus Bowe. Lewis had the dangerous synchronicity of being an egomaniac with a bad chin, inflated opinion of his skills, and contempt for Bowe--it would have been an utter catastrophe for him to get that Bowe fight in 93, 94 imo.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 02 Dec 2019, 17:54
by stujones
Valid points....couple of things I'd say though..
Yes Lewis fought beneath himself against fighters he had a low opinion of pre Manny.....but the one true threat he fought in that time he was scintillating....vs Rudduck. Obviously Bowe also looked sloppy at times against weaker opponents seemingly (e.g Hide).
Re Holyfield......thats a great point. I would say the best heavyweight Holyfield was 1996-1997. In fights 1 and 2 with bowe especially he was still seemingly a cruiserweight......he looked a heavyweight vs Tyson and Moorer....but yes was slipping vs Lewis.....so not sure which Holyfield was better.
Just think both were hit and miss in these early days....but both would have been highly motivated and Lewis power, speed and size would have been too much against a guy who mainly bear up small heavyweights....Gonzales aside.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 02 Dec 2019, 19:45
by Coco
Ruiz, Wilder, Fury and AJ could end up being like Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton if they do a bit of a round robin fighting each other.
Who will be Ken Norton......
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 03 Dec 2019, 06:44
by lillywhite14
Coco wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 19:45
Ruiz, Wilder, Fury and AJ could end up being like Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton if they do a bit of a round robin fighting each other.
Who will be Ken Norton......
Nah, they’ll end up the Smith, Witherspoon, Tubbs, Thomas types from the 80’s who ended up being swept away by the next big thing
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 03 Dec 2019, 07:15
by MasterG
I would really love a new comer who has the fear of Mike Tyson. What this division misses is someone who puts the fear into opponents. It's about time someone came along that had a ferocious punch and the style of Tyson that actually won the fight before the refs instructions.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 03 Dec 2019, 08:17
by ILikeBeer
To be fair, it'd be funny if Joshua lost again.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 03 Dec 2019, 09:17
by stujones
lillywhite14 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2019, 06:44
Coco wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 19:45
Ruiz, Wilder, Fury and AJ could end up being like Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton if they do a bit of a round robin fighting each other.
Who will be Ken Norton......
Nah, they’ll end up the Smith, Witherspoon, Tubbs, Thomas types from the 80’s who ended up being swept away by the next big thing
More concerned it will be the Bruno, Seldon, Botha, Schultz type personally.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 09:24
by Onetimeonly
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑28 Nov 2019, 15:25
I expect Joshua to get knocked out badly on the Dunes next weekend, so working on that assumption my ideal 2020 would see Wilder rematch Fury in the spring.
Fury has more talent in his little finger than Wilder does in his whole body, but at 6’9’’ and 260lbs the Bronze Bomber should, if he throws more, catch and KO his humongous target this time around.
Ruiz in the meantime milks his belts with a voluntary against Dillian Whyte; I think Ruiz KOs Whyte, whatever the latter’s drug status, but it would be an action fight.
That could set up a summer unification but it’s never that simple. So Wilder makes a volitional against the battle-damaged Joshua, resulting in a highlight reel KO that puts the whole silly AJ hype train behind us. Maybe Ruiz has a gimme on the undercard. Hunter Jr would be nice.
Wrap up with a Christmas unification where the talent of Ruiz wins out over the crazy right hand of Wilder. Year ends with a little fat man standing atop a mangled heap of giants.
By 2021 Usyk should perhaps be ready to step in and save us, as I think the amusement of having a fat snicker chomping Mexican as heavyweight champ will have worn off.
How would your ideal 2020 in the heavyweights play out?
For me they just fight each other. Two points of contention, if wilder is ever 260lbs call in the feds and hunter would handle Ruiz easily.
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 09:50
by Tuan_Jim
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Dec 2019, 09:24
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑28 Nov 2019, 15:25
I expect Joshua to get knocked out badly on the Dunes next weekend, so working on that assumption my ideal 2020 would see Wilder rematch Fury in the spring.
Fury has more talent in his little finger than Wilder does in his whole body, but at 6’9’’ and 260lbs the Bronze Bomber should, if he throws more, catch and KO his humongous target this time around.
Ruiz in the meantime milks his belts with a voluntary against Dillian Whyte; I think Ruiz KOs Whyte, whatever the latter’s drug status, but it would be an action fight.
That could set up a summer unification but it’s never that simple. So Wilder makes a volitional against the battle-damaged Joshua, resulting in a highlight reel KO that puts the whole silly AJ hype train behind us. Maybe Ruiz has a gimme on the undercard. Hunter Jr would be nice.
Wrap up with a Christmas unification where the talent of Ruiz wins out over the crazy right hand of Wilder. Year ends with a little fat man standing atop a mangled heap of giants.
By 2021 Usyk should perhaps be ready to step in and save us, as I think the amusement of having a fat snicker chomping Mexican as heavyweight champ will have worn off.
How would your ideal 2020 in the heavyweights play out?
For me they just fight each other. Two points of contention, if wilder is ever 260lbs call in the feds and hunter would handle Ruiz easily.
I meant Fury at 260lbs is an unmissable target for Wilder's punches, if he throws more.
I haven't seen enough of Hunter to have a solid opinion. Do you think he's a good as his dad? Or better?
Re: Your ideal 2020 for the heavyweight division?
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 10:42
by Onetimeonly
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑07 Dec 2019, 09:50
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Dec 2019, 09:24
For me they just fight each other. Two points of contention, if wilder is ever 260lbs call in the feds and hunter would handle Ruiz easily.
I meant Fury at 260lbs is an unmissable target for Wilder's punches, if he throws more.
I haven't seen enough of Hunter to have a solid opinion. Do you think he's a good as his dad? Or better?
My bad, he hits harder than his dad. I wouldn't say he's more skilled but in this era he's more than most. Tbh, I became a fan because of the incessant talk of huge modern heavies being too big for 220lb legends. In my defense, not that it's important in the pros either, he beat the dogshit out of Andy and stopped him in the ams.