BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Looks like the midlands....too far for a chat and a beer for me.

In a sensible world, the doghouse and boxrec forums would be able to put their heads together and organise a london one. However this is obviously a fanciful idea.

If the Midlands one goes well I might take up the mantle of organising a London one and Boxrec would be more than welcome as would any forum, I have no allegiance to any forum I am a mercenary fornicator!!

HH

The whole idea is that we can all have an evening of beer and boxing and maybe birds as well for the single among us.

Perhaps we could organise a boxing/tittybar evening in London?

Us boys from boxing addicts have met a fair few times and usually go to the Griffin which is class....We may be meeting for the Calzaghe fight its not 100% yet...You would be welcome fella.

HH

Must admit i couldn't remember Pacquiao dropping Barrera? Must have forgotten that bit. I was going to raise the point has anyone seen Pacquiao hurt? Seriously or even shaken? I can't recall, i know he was beaten early in his career but that was probably down to being down at an impossible weight class. Pacquiao is a machine, i am not a massive fan of his but he has speed, power and guts, i just knew with Manny's solid chin that Morales's best chance of winning was to outpunch Pacquaio and keep moving. He was never going to shake or stop him. It was clear from the middle rounds this wasn't going to happen as Morales showed every body shot Pacquiao dug home.

Pacquiao's improvements are there for all to see, i can't believe this is the same guy who was labouring in a foul fest with Agapito Sanchez a few years ago. Now he is a something else. Pacquiao V Barrera 2 or Marquez 2 next please Morales should retire he has nothing left to prove.

I know Pacquiao was knocked out by a viscious body shot earlier in his career (I think it was against Singsurat or someone?), but that was after he'd lost the title at the scales. So, yeah, like every fighter he can be hurt to the body, but his chin is definitely one of the best around by far.

Manny reminds me a little of Shane Mosley actually, especially in his last fight. Similar herky jerky explosive style as shane had at lightweight and welterweight.

Lefthook is right, Barerra did officially drop Pacquiao, but the KD wasn't legitimate. Memory played a few tricks, I thought it was - but it wasn't. However, Barrera was looking in command after the opening session (won it even if you didn't count the KD) but Manny picked it up a gear.

I did the Marquez did geniunally hurt him though, not all at sea or anything, but stunned him. I also thought Morales did in fight 1.

I seem to remember though a few journo articles questionning Manny's chin prior to the Barrera fight and even after the Barrera fight. A fair few tipped Marquez to KO him - so perhaps there have been stories and fights I haven't seen, but no-one can doubt it now.

If it weren't for the 3 knockdowns, Marquez would have beaten Manny into a cocked hat, Pacman had absolutely no idea how to control the fight against Marquez. Marquez was landing some bombs on Pacquaio, but don't think he ever really hurt him.

Mad as it sounds, with that long hair Manny used to have, it used to make shots he took look a lot worse, as his hair would fly about with the impact.

I think if they fight now it will be a razor thin fight, either man could prevail. Marquez is a better fighter tactically than Barrera or Morales ever were, and he is a better outside fighter than either man. He is also as hard as fornicating nails and has underrated power. I think he's a more complete fighter than Barrera, but not always as impressive to watch.

It's partly the fact that Barrera and Morales take a few to give a few which has them held in such high esteem, especially Morales, whose defence largely consisted of the punishment he doled out if you rattled him, and having such a good chin. Barrera is a bit more cultured defensively, and a better inside fighter, but I don't think he will have the engine or the power to keep Manny on the back foot now.

The tactics Barrera used on Hamed won't work on this version of pacman, who will work his way inside with the jab and fast combinations to head and body. Pacman does have pretty phenomenal handspeed for such a hard puncher and good reflexes. He also showed that he knows how to throw a straight shot.

pacman was terrific wasn't he.

morales broken nose took a lot out of him i think. from rd 6 onwards he was really struggling to stay with pacman. he was eating him up i think u could say.

can't wait to c pacman-barrera 2. i'm hoping top rank don't go for the money and let morales take on some easier opposition for a few fights.

time to give morales some easy nights.

Its an amazing thing that styles does make fights, I do agree that it is Marquez who will give Pacquiao the hardest fight. I think Barrera's lack of height and reach compared to Marquez is pivotal to his downfall.

However, I do not agree that Marquez is the better technician than a prime Barerra or a more complete fighter. If he was more complete than Barrera, then just how good was Freddie Norwood.

Don't get me wrong, I think Marquez would have knockout the Hamed that fought Barrera, but I don't think he is the counter puncher master that Barrera is. I don't know if it was the three KD's that effected Pacquiao in his fight with Marquez, but he was one dimensional that fight - the in and out "jerky" movements that were there vs Barrera and Morales (in the rematch) were not there vs Marquez.

If Pacquiao would have fought Morales straight after Barrera, I would have tipped Pacman. However, he was definately short of ideas vs Marquez and led me to a premature conclusion of "if you can get this guy on the back foot, you beat him". Thats was wrong, because Morales tried to push Pacquiao back (as he done so well in match 1) and Pacquiao this time was still in an out, and eventually broke Morales.

I definately think a prime Barrera (which I think he is no longer) was better than Marquez and wouldn't have tipped him to beat him. However, Pacquiao work rate, handspeed (how often is Barrera been slower than his opponent) power and toughness are all wrong for him. A Prime Barerra for me definately has edges in handspeed, and work rate over Marquez..... I would say Marquez's is not a defensive master either, Pacquiao found his chin a fair few times.

Pacman found Marquez chin early, but after that it was virtualyl one way traffic.

The point about handspeed is spot on. People forget how quick Barrera's hands are, it's why he's always given Morales murders, Morales is pretty slow. Pacman made Barrera look slow as shit through a funnel at times, and that would have been the case even in his physical prime.

Barrera is not a counterpunch master. The fight with Hamed was the first time he ever fought that way, it's something he has used late in his career, possibly to compensatge for waning reserves of stamina, and also the fact that his power isn't as impressive at the higher weights. Marquez has always been a more pure boxer, who happened to have power when he needed it.

you have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt. knocked out both Morales and Barrera, and he is a former flyweight whose best division was probably super bantamweight. he's a small framed guy & to be doing this at 130-lbs is pretty remarkable.

can't take anything away from Morales. perfect time to retire as he can still say he's beaten every guy he faced, with the exception of Raheem. he might have beaten as many as four Hall of Fame calibre men (Barrera, Pacquiao, Junior Jones & Daniel Zaragoza) & has had a career to celebrate.

IMO the twelfth rd of the first Manny fight was a grave error from Morales - he showed Pac, whose best shots he took & hit with better replies, that Manny could give him a beating. He also allowed Manny to see that the right hook was a good weapon.

this time, Erik couldn't stop the torrents of punches coming at him, from a technically improved MP, admittedly. that really overhwelmed him.


I still think Marquez beat him. If you can discourage manny from coming in, by slipping his best shots, punishing him with a hard counter & knocking him off balance, he can be contained. would love to see a rematch of that one. if you can frustrate him with technical skills & make him revert back to that left hand happy guy, Barrera or Marquez might be able to slow him down to their pace and punish him. Marquez' precision and Barrera's variety can help them do this.

Paulie Ayalia is a fringe hall of fame contender, and maybe Jesus Chavez can do something a bit more as a Lightweight to get him into that bracket.

Beating Barrera for instance?

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Beating Barrera for instance?

Well, if it doesn't happen I think he could have a geniune chance with all the current Lightweight champs and contenders - including Castillo and Corrales. He's a much underated fighter.

I wouldn't like to predict a fight with Barrera, one would assume though that it is two small for the weight guys that Barrera would have the edge - but I thought exactly the same for Morales and Raheem.

I'd probably give Chavez a bigger chance with the big two than Barrera due to the fact the Chavez is a little bit bigger than Marco. He is also quite a slick mover when on song with good side to side "windscreen wipers" movement which evades a fair amount.

The guy he won the WBC Super Featherweight title from (I'm not going to even attempt to spell his name) is doing well as a Lightweight, Chavez hammered him.

Barrera-Chavez has been on and off, meaning that it was never set in concrete & that MAB was never committed to it. he was just flirting with the idea of being a 4 weight champion & he planned to face the Pac-Morales winner, knowing the money's better etc. I don't think Jesus Chavez comes that close to being HOF worthy. and i doubt he gets a chance to prove it vs Barrera.

I reckon Barrera will go for Chavez after seeing Morales take a hiding.

maybe.

but i think MAB knows he can be better than the 2003 fight with Pacquiao. he's definitely an alert counter puncher, with some crafty moves. it'll be very hard for him, as he has a tired look about him, but if Barrera can read Pacquiao's attacks and pick him off, who knows.

imo Barrera-Pacquiao II is too big to resist, even for Marco. the money, the personal angle. seems like it's too big not to happen.

Barrera wanted manny to accept the mar 25 date, to get the advantage in freshness. obviously that wasn't realistic.

would be really interesting if Morales went for a Chavez rematch, that'd be a fantastic career move if he feels he has enough left. Morales the 4 weight champ?

stujones wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Beating Barrera for instance?

Well, if it doesn't happen I think he could have a geniune chance with all the current Lightweight champs and contenders - including Castillo and Corrales. He's a much underated fighter.

I wouldn't like to predict a fight with Barrera, one would assume though that it is two small for the weight guys that Barrera would have the edge - but I thought exactly the same for Morales and Raheem.

I'd probably give Chavez a bigger chance with the big two than Barrera due to the fact the Chavez is a little bit bigger than Marco. He is also quite a slick mover when on song with good side to side "windscreen wipers" movement which evades a fair amount.

The guy he won the WBC Super Featherweight title from (I'm not going to even attempt to spell his name) is doing well as a Lightweight, Chavez hammered him.

don't you think Castillo would smash Jesus Chavez? imo Castillo's been every bit as good as Barrera, Morales, and the Marquez bros. Castillo is such a punishing, if methodical fighter. I pity anyone that walks into his stinging hooks

viciousmaussa wrote:maybe.

but i think MAB knows he can be better than the 2003 fight with Pacquiao. he's definitely an alert counter puncher, with some crafty moves. it'll be very hard for him, as he has a tired look about him, but if Barrera can read Pacquiao's attacks and pick him off, who knows.

imo Barrera-Pacquiao II is too big to resist, even for Marco. the money, the personal angle. seems like it's too big not to happen.

Barrera wanted manny to accept the mar 25 date, to get the advantage in freshness. obviously that wasn't realistic.

would be really interesting if Morales went for a Chavez rematch, that'd be a fantastic career move if he feels he has enough left. Morales the 4 weight champ?

You may be right. However, I think Barrera will also have noticed that Pacman has improved since they last fought. Manny overwhelmed him with sheer aggression and non stop punching last time, but he broke Morales down with a methodical and relentless body attack.

viciousmaussa wrote:

stujones wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Beating Barrera for instance?

Well, if it doesn't happen I think he could have a geniune chance with all the current Lightweight champs and contenders - including Castillo and Corrales. He's a much underated fighter.

I wouldn't like to predict a fight with Barrera, one would assume though that it is two small for the weight guys that Barrera would have the edge - but I thought exactly the same for Morales and Raheem.

I'd probably give Chavez a bigger chance with the big two than Barrera due to the fact the Chavez is a little bit bigger than Marco. He is also quite a slick mover when on song with good side to side "windscreen wipers" movement which evades a fair amount.

The guy he won the WBC Super Featherweight title from (I'm not going to even attempt to spell his name) is doing well as a Lightweight, Chavez hammered him.

don't you think Castillo would smash Jesus Chavez? imo Castillo's been every bit as good as Barrera, Morales, and the Marquez bros. Castillo is such a punishing, if methodical fighter. I pity anyone that walks into his stinging hooks

He would undoubtedly start as favourite - but Jesus is a bit slicker than Corrales, takes a shot better and has as good a work rate as Corrales. Plus I did stress it would be a lightweight. Catchweight or at Light Welter then yes, Castillo would completely anhilate him - simply too big, too strong, but I think its a good fight at Lightweight.

I agree with Castillo, whilst I would put him a little notch below Marco - I would put him on a par (at least) with the other three fighters mentioned (Morales, and the two Marquez). However, Morales struggled with Chavez.

I don't agree about Marquez being a more complete fighter than Barrera and co. Marquez is STRICTLY a counterpuncher with the others can fight both ways. He struggle's heavily when he has to come foward and take the fight to his opponent. Most of the guys Marquez has fought suit his style. Marquez is very tough to beat though.

I reckon Barrera vs. Chavez is going to be another one for the ages. Should be pretty close, but I have always backed Barrera in the really big fights, and I'm not going to stop now. I really think he can do it. I don't, however, think that he really wants a rematch with Pacquiao, and I'll be surprised if that ever happens. I think Pacquiao vs. Marquez II is more realistic, and I can see that being a much closer fight than the last one (which is ridiculous in a way, because I scored the first fight a draw!) I think Manny might just do what he did against Morales and have more success second time around, maybe scoring a late knockout. Either way, I know I'll watching, because I haven't yet seen a bad Pacquiao fight. The guy is pure entertainment.

i really though MAB was ging to go for Pacquiao. now he's fighting Chavez. Intriguing fight, nonetheless. Maybe even a great fight

After Pacman's latest truimph and the manner of it Barrera could really double cement his position as an all time great by taking him on next. I'd be surprised if he did, but MAB has surprised me before. MAB always seem to improve in the rematch so it makes a fascinating contest. Marquez set the blueprint on how to defeat Pacqiou but you have to be something very special to carry it through to the finish.