BoxRec

Akinwande at 4 and above Bruno and Haye is a bit left field

I think once Akinwande learned to punch there was a brief peak of form that I think would have been hard for a lot of British heavyweights to handle. I could, for instance, see him handling David Haye in a similar fashion to he did Jeremy Williams. The peak ended with the Lewis fight, although let's not forget Akinwande, although well overmatched, did score an uncredited knockdown. It's a shame Akinwande's fight with Holyfield was cancelled at the last minute. I think Henry would have taken a UD and had more high profile fights off the back of it.

dr_devious wrote: ↑13 Nov 2018, 17:35

1. Lennox Lewis - a truly legendary boxer, I even rate him as the best British p4p boxer ever as well as the best heavyweight ever and I don't think, that any explanations are needed for that.
2. Anthony Joshua - he has made really big accomplishments. For the moment he has the best opposition in the division and 3 major belts. An ATG Klitschko is among the scalps.
3. Tyson Fury - for the moment his biggest achievement is not just winning Klitschko, but dethroning him after the long reign as a unified and lineal champion. And he outboxed Klitschko, while Joshua wasn't able to do the same even later. That's his arguably single really big win, but almost nobody else had ever done something similar. He's talented, especially for a fighter of his size and physique.
4. Frank Bruno - was WBC champion dethroned McCall, was a top competitor of the 80s and the 90s with a solid opposition.
5. Bob Fitzsimmons - was a World champion dethroned Corbett, was a major player in his times. Probably his legacy is bigger in p4p sense, but his heavyweight career in particular was good. Not to forget he was the first British HW champ.
6. Joe Bugner - his biggest accoplishments were British, Commonwealth and European titles along with Australian one due to dual citizenship. He was around the top in the 70s. He was a skillful boxer and pretty elusive, I'd say, that style wasn't too common for European fighters. Cooper win was controversial and not so spectacular, but still a win, so he is slightly over Cooper. Furthermore he was better, than Cooper, in Ali fights and he even made look both Ali and Frazier not very spectacular in their fights. Actually his fights weren't spectacular overall, but that was a kinda accomplishment, as he was able to drag opponents in his style of fight and he sometimes was successful there against a notable opposition.
7. Henry Cooper - his biggest accoplishments were British, Commonwealth and European titles, he had some decent scalps. A top fighter of his times. Scored a legendary knockdown in Ali bout.
8. Tommy Farr - his biggest accoplishments were British and Commonwealth titles, but he was a good boxer with some good wins including a one over HFer Baer. He also went the distance vs Louis and was able to trouble him several times.
9. David Haye - was WBA champ. A top competitor of the late 2000s - early 2010s. He won the championship from a one of the worst HW champs and defended against the other one, but it is what it is. His career could have been better, but still he was able to show, that he was a skillful boxer, talented and slick.
10. Joe Erskine - was British and Commonwealth champ, held some notable wins including the ones in his prolonged rivalry vs Cooper.

Lennox Lewis - there has been a time, not so long ago, when I had the impression that he was the greatest heavyweight of all times. He surely has the best one-two I have ever seen in a heavyweight boxer; Larry Holmes had similar weaponry, but he relied rather on his jab alone, than on his one-two (W. Klitschko had a great jab too, and Anthony Joshua's one isn't any bad either).
Now I don't know wether Joe Louis or Ali were greater than Lewis, but he surely could have weathered even prime Tyson, as they had sparred in their youth: not so many boxers can state this.

Anthony Joshua - I believe he's clearly overhyped: many doubt that he really deserved his Olympic gold for instance, but what do you reckon?
Beating Klitschko? Come on, that was a washed up fighter at that time already... I'm afraid that Wlad at his peak would've sent poor Joshua all groggy and dizzy all over the place.
Still has to prove a lot.
The guy's alright, he looks humble and respectful, no doubt he could make it.

Tyson Fury - he's clearly an underachiever in my eyes: without all that body fat, he could have done much better, specially against powerful but not-greatly-skilled Wilder.
Fury reminds me a bit of Corrie Sanders: another great underachiever.
Sadly enough, Fury's mental health isn't the best one either: that might be most probably his main disadvantage.

Frank Bruno - I have a lot of respect for the guy: he apparently never ducked anyone, fighting his best opposition openly and courageously. I hold him in better consideration than Joshua.

I remember David Haye as a fair powerpuncher, Joe Bugner mainly for his Bud Spencer & Terence Hill movie, and all the others above named I have barely even heard or read about.

I'm ignorant enough, but I'd like to learn, and what better chance than learning from connoisseurs like many of you guys are: so please go easy on me if I happen to miss some statements.
Gentlemen

Klitschko not an all time great.....

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:30 Klitschko not an all time great.....

Not the fastest or more mobile, but he had remarkable power and a world class level jab, you must grant him.
He also had the guts to keep focusing even when already successful, and evolving his own style, specially under the guidance of Manny Steward.
I wouldn't underestimate him nevertheless. He'd be a dangerous outsider to reckon with.

Top Three:

Lewis
Bruno
Cooper.

Left AJ and Fury off as the jury is still out on active fighters. Cooper, for those of you who are too young to remember, had a vicious left hook, which made him dangerous to any fighter he faced. Unfortunately, his delicate skin did him in too many times, but his heart was huge.

I think Joshua is already well ahead of Bruno in terms of accomplishments, he's beaten more ranked contenders already than Bruno did in his entire career.

That would be relevant if the contenders in Joshua's time was just as good.
Not sure if it's even true. Outside of the legendary figures of Povetkin and Parker, Joshua doesn't seem to have beaten any other ranked contenders in his illustrious career. That's two.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:17 That would be relevant if the contenders in Joshua's time was just as good.
Not sure if it's even true. Outside of the legendary figures of Povetkin and Parker, Joshua doesn't seem to have beaten any other ranked contenders in his illustrious career. That's two.

Agreed. AJ is unfinished business to be put on this list.

Out of Joshua's opponents I believe Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, and Alexander Povetkin were all rated in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. Dominic Breazeale is also arguable. That's a total of 3 or 4 guys. Bruno by contrast has 2-Gerrie Coetzee and Oliver McCall.

I'm hopeful that the division improves in the coming years when prospects like Dychko, Makhmudov, Joyce, Hrgovic, and Dubois step up in competition.
Makhmudov looks like a real-life Ivan Drago

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:36 Out of Joshua's opponents I believe Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, and Alexander Povetkin were all rated in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. Dominic Breazeale is also arguable. That's a total of 3 or 4 guys. Bruno by contrast has 2-Gerrie Coetzee and Oliver McCall.

Klitschko past his prime and 41: Povetkin past his prime and 39; Parker? We're finding out he wasn't as good as advertised. Breazeale? Why even mention that sloth. They are very similar in many ways, but AJ isn't done yet. Don't include an undone fighter on an ATG list, IMHO.

Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.

cfang wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:45 Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.

Including active fighters?:
Lewis
Bruno
Fury
Joshua
Farr
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Haye
London

Jacopodb wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:44

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:30 Klitschko not an all time great.....

Not the fastest or more mobile, but he had remarkable power and a world class level jab, you must grant him.
He also had the guts to keep focusing even when already successful, and evolving his own style, specially under the guidance of Manny Steward.
I wouldn't underestimate him nevertheless. He'd be a dangerous outsider to reckon with.

Those skills seem better than what they are when your fighting bums.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 19:50

Jacopodb wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:44

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:30 Klitschko not an all time great.....

Not the fastest or more mobile, but he had remarkable power and a world class level jab, you must grant him.
He also had the guts to keep focusing even when already successful, and evolving his own style, specially under the guidance of Manny Steward.
I wouldn't underestimate him nevertheless. He'd be a dangerous outsider to reckon with.

Those skills seem better than what they are when your fighting bums.

While his competition wasn't the greatest some of them were credible. Alexander Povetkin who just gave Anthony Joshua all kinds of problems couldn't win a round against Wladimir, and was dropped 4 times.

#1- Bob Fitzsimmons, purely for historical purposes. Up until the 1970s the man was routinely on the top 5 Heavyweight lists. A super middleweight with super heavyweight power, he crushed many of the best 160, 175, 200 pounders of his era. It's difficult to find men with comparable records anywhere in the world.

#2- Lennox Lewis, the best "big man" in Heavyweight history. Hard to argue against him being top ten of all time. Olympic Gold Medalist, British & Commonwealth & European champion, 3x Heavyweight Champion. Avenged his two losses. He was the best of the mid-late 90s & early 2000s.

#3- Tyson Fury, may just surpass Lewis as the best overall skilled giant in boxing history. Robbed of the chance of going to the Olympics, in rapid succession he became British & Irish & European champion. His skillful display against decade's unbeaten Wladimir Klitschko, and his tremendous performance against Deontay Wilder give a glimpse of what may come in the near future. The Lineal Champion and True WBC champion.

#4- Anthony Joshua, like Fury may very well surpass Lewis as the best giant in boxing history. Olympic Gold Medalist, and within 15 fights was not only the British Champion but IBF title holder. Now 22-0-0, he holds the most belts. Until a legacy building clash between himself and Fury occurs, we can only speculate the trajectory these two men go. I rate him lower than Fury only because he got the older, inactive Klitschko whereas Fury had the Champion version. I rate him lower, also, because he's not as skillful (imho) though he is a better puncher.

#5- Joe Bugner, although he never was Champion of the World he went the distance 2x's with Ali, went the distance with Frazier, Lyle, Ellis, and he did beat the likes of Dunne, Lubbers, Blin, Garcia, Wepner, Doyle, Ramos, London, and Page. His comeback in the 90s was surprisingly successful beating Levi Billups, Bob Mirovic, and Bonecrusher Smith. His British & Commonwealth victory over Henry Cooper will always be controversial, but the bulk of his career was in England despite being a transplanted Hungarian.

#6- Henry Akinwande, the WBO Heavyweight champion, unbeaten until facing Lennox Lewis in '97 the 6'8" giant had wins over the likes of Williams, Zolkin, Tucker, Nelson, Schulz, and Thunder. During that time he was the EBU & Empire champion. After Lewis he wouldn't lose until 2001 against Oliver McCall. He wouldn't lose again until 2006. He retired in 2008. He had notable wins over Ed Mahone, Timo Hoffman, Orlin Norris and Peter McNeeley. Ironically he's perhaps remembered most as a trivia question, "Which future Heavyweight Champion did John Fury fight?"

#7- Henry Cooper, the greatest British & Commonwealth Champion of all time. From 1959-1971 he was Britain's Champion. He was, from 1964-1971, he was also the EBU Champion. On that level of competition he had tremendous rivalries with Joe Erskine, who he fought five times, as well as Joe Bygraves and Brian London. Unfortunately, he never could get over the hump and lost to the likes of Ingemar Johansson, Floyd Patterson and Muhammad Ali.

#8- John L. Gardner, like Cooper was a dominant British & European champion, but couldn't get over the hump. When he's being remembered it's for his fight with legendary hardcase Paul Sykes or his exhibition bout with Muhammad Ali, but he had solid wins against Lorenzo Zanon and Ossie Ocassio.

#9- Tommy Farr, arguably is better than this ranking suggests, but he did give Joe Louis a hard fight and he was robbed against Jim Braddock and he beat the likes of Larry Gains, Max Baer, Tommy Loughran, and had been a pretty good 175-pounder earlier in his career beating the legendary Frank Moody.

#10- Bruce Woodcock, the man almost was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. The BBBC recognized him as being the best Heavyweight in the world in the late 40s-early 50s. He had wins over Freddie Mills, Lee Oma, Gus Lesnevich, and from '45-'50 he was the British & Commonwealth Champion, picking up the EBU title in '46. Unfortunately his losses to Lee Savold prevented him from facing Ezzard Charles or the comebacking Joe Louis.

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:41

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:36 Out of Joshua's opponents I believe Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, and Alexander Povetkin were all rated in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. Dominic Breazeale is also arguable. That's a total of 3 or 4 guys. Bruno by contrast has 2-Gerrie Coetzee and Oliver McCall.

Klitschko past his prime and 41: Povetkin past his prime and 39; Parker? We're finding out he wasn't as good as advertised. Breazeale? Why even mention that sloth. They are very similar in many ways, but AJ isn't done yet. Don't include an undone fighter on an ATG list, IMHO.

Excellent point over there.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 19:50

Jacopodb wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:44

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:30 Klitschko not an all time great.....

Not the fastest or more mobile, but he had remarkable power and a world class level jab, you must grant him.
He also had the guts to keep focusing even when already successful, and evolving his own style, specially under the guidance of Manny Steward.
I wouldn't underestimate him nevertheless. He'd be a dangerous outsider to reckon with.

Those skills seem better than what they are when your fighting bums.

Good point, but there are fighters such as Marciano and Calzaghe, and maybe Floyd Mayweather Jr. too - despite he has faced great opposition - for example, which have never been tested against many all-time-greats (as did Sugar Ray Robinson...), and therefore are quite snubbed by many purists of boxing history: W. Klitschko belongs to that category, in my view: boxers who, despite not having faced a lot of irresistible opposition, have shown great, old-fashioned but up-to-date skills, giving us the feeling that, even if tested more seriously, they could've kept up and delivered one hell of a fight to any opponent, thanks to their work ethics and ability to adapt to their opponents' style.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 21:18

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 19:50

Jacopodb wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 10:44

Not the fastest or more mobile, but he had remarkable power and a world class level jab, you must grant him.
He also had the guts to keep focusing even when already successful, and evolving his own style, specially under the guidance of Manny Steward.
I wouldn't underestimate him nevertheless. He'd be a dangerous outsider to reckon with.

Those skills seem better than what they are when your fighting bums.

While his competition wasn't the greatest some of them were credible. Alexander Povetkin who just gave Anthony Joshua all kinds of problems couldn't win a round against Wladimir, and was dropped 4 times.

Despite their match, Wladimir still looks in a different class from Joshua: it would be like calling the still-great Larry Holmes greater than Ali, or the still great-and-tough-and-serious Marciano greater than Joe Louis, if we tried to put Joshua in the same class of Wladimir Klitschko.

Given that, we must wait for what's ahead of Joshua to have a better chance to judge: there might be surprises, altho by now I wouldn't say it.

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:50

cfang wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:45 Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.

Including active fighters?:
Lewis
Bruno
Fury
Joshua
Farr
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Haye
London

That's a fair list: by now, I believe that Joshua would take a beating from a peaking Bruno: he would give Joshua the lesson of his life, the one Klitschko couldn't give him because too old...

Jacopodb wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 10:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:50

cfang wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:45 Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.

Including active fighters?:
Lewis
Bruno
Fury
Joshua
Farr
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Haye
London

That's a fair list: by now, I believe that Joshua would take a beating from a peaking Bruno: he would give Joshua the lesson of his life, the one Klitschko couldn't give him because too old...

And had not fought in 17 months. And he still almost won. And then there is also that Klitschko had major weaknesses himself. And that is Joshua's biggest win. Bruno at least beat Coeztee and McCall. Nobody counts Bruno's win over over Bugner as much, yet somehow we are supposed to buy the win over Klitschko as a big deal.

I think the top 4 ATM has to be

Lennox Lewis
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tyson Fury
Anthony Joshua

3 were lineal champs, Lennox had the best reign, Fitz probably did the best outside that, and Fury's win over Wlad, and now his fight with Wilder, put him a touch above Joshua, but Joshua is probably havign a better overall career, so I won't object to anyone putting Joshua ahead of Fury.

Only vaguely in order
Tommy Farr, might be next, but a lot of his best performances are losses, and he has some not great results.
Frank Bruno, had a pretty good career, but had serious limitations that cost him at the top.
David Haye, good wins over Chisora, Ruiz, and Valuev, did badly against Wlad which is his only real top opponent.
Henry Cooper, did great against Ali, and British champ for ages, but also lost to the likes of Ingemar Johansson and Zara Folley.
Joe Bugner, probably deserves a mention, not as familar with him TBH
Bruce Woodcock, decent career, but a lack of much standing out.
Dereck Chisora warrents a mention at this point, some solid wins, and gave Vitali a good fight.

Dillian Whyte decent win over Parker and Browne, deserves a mention

A few more that I'll mention, not in any order or next
Len Harvey, fought in every Division, and beat Larry Gains (though Gains was out of shape)
Denver Ed Smith ranks well on boxrec, I think from a win over Joe Goddard, which is pretty good
Phil Scott actually had an alright career, there's a fair bit of footage of him. Big guy, not the greatest boxer, and lost fairly badly against top opponents
Charlie MItchell, top contender to John L Sullivan, dropped him in their first fight, and drew with a past it Sullivan, seems to have had a fair few good wins.

If you go bareknuckle there's a lot more, Belcher seems to have been the best overall, nearly beat Pearce and Cribb (two of the next best in their own right), with only one eye!

In no order as well as mentioned some of the best are, Tom Sayers, Jem Mace, Tom King, Jack Broughton, "Bendigo" Tompson (never really looked into him TBH), John Jackson, Daniel Mendoza, Ben Brian, Tom Johnson and Deaf Burke.

Sayers, King, and Broughton maybe being the best of that group.

You are familiar with all these guys but not Bugner? Well there is a lot of him on Youtube, you should check out some of his matches when you get a chance some time. He is probably #2.