Premature Stoppages

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 10 Oct 2006, 18:11

walshb wrote:There really are some barbaric sons of bitches on this thead calling the Taylor stoppage poor. How much distress does a fighter have to be in for some of you guys to say enough is enough. Meldrick was in a bad way, could not respond and also had taken a lot of punishment for 36 minutes. One more shot could have claimed his life and some people are slagging Steele off. I would say if Taylor looked back at the event, he himself would thank Steele for the call. How many more Watson's and McClellan's do we need??. Steele was not the timekeeper in there, he wasn' to know that there was exactly 2-3 secs remaining. Who is to say that the timekeeper would have rung the bell at 2-3 secs and not 5-6 or even more.

As for Lewis, he was all over the place with legs like Jelly.The Ref had to hold him damn well up and again there are calls saying he should have been allowed continue. I think it's sick to be honest!!!

Top post!... well done mate, nice to see someone who actually knows what theyre talking about. Anyone who thinks the Taylor stoppage was premature should hear the guy talking today. The stoppage was actually too late, and Taylor was never the same fighter again... his corner should have pulled him out after the 9th or 10th rounds... but Duva was always full of shite and cared more for wins than his fighters imo...

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 11 Oct 2006, 10:27

Silkov, I think the tragedy is that there may well be more fight fans interested in blood and hurt than the actual skill, courage and heart aspect of the game. Not enough of me and yourself. I love a good ding dong just as much as the next guy, but sometimes you gotta say enough is enough. Far too many fights have been allowed continue where one guy is taking terrible unnecessary punishment. Whether it be the ref allowing it or the guys corner or even the doctor. I think we all now that the last guy to say enough is enough is the fighters themselves, they never want to quit and that's why it's up to those closest to them to protect them, not endanger their lives for the thrills of some sick blood thirsty fans.

I think the most disgusting display I saw was the Harrisson V McCullough affair. Wayne's own wife who was his manager ignored pleas from Warren to stop the bout. What god damn hope has a fighter got with people like this involvedin the game??

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Oct 2006, 11:25

walshb wrote:Silkov, I think the tragedy is that there may well be more fight fans interested in blood and hurt than the actual skill, courage and heart aspect of the game. Not enough of me and yourself. I love a good ding dong just as much as the next guy, but sometimes you gotta say enough is enough. Far too many fights have been allowed continue where one guy is taking terrible unnecessary punishment. Whether it be the ref allowing it or the guys corner or even the doctor. I think we all now that the last guy to say enough is enough is the fighters themselves, they never want to quit and that's why it's up to those closest to them to protect them, not endanger their lives for the thrills of some sick blood thirsty fans.

I think the most disgusting display I saw was the Harrisson V McCullough affair. Wayne's own wife who was his manager ignored pleas from Warren to stop the bout. What god damn hope has a fighter got with people like this involvedin the game??

Yeah, I agree, and he still says that he shouldnt have been stopped against Larios... Wayne is an accident waiting to happen if he carries on fighting....

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Oct 2006, 12:18

I disagree with many of the ones cited here.

Ali-Lyle-I am a big Ron Lyle fan, but he just wasn't firing back, and Ali was continually ripping him with some brutal shots. Lyle either was just extremely stupid by not ripping in some counters, or badly dazed from that sneaky right hand (I think the latter) Any way you slice it, you can't let a guy take continual flush shots to the face and head if he's not shooting back.

Lewis-McCall-If Lennox hadn't stumbled right after he put his gloves up to say he was ok, it would be a bad stoppage. But what is the ref supposed to do when you ask if you're alright and the fighter can't even stay upright?

Taylor-Chavez-On my first few glances of the fight I thought it was a horrible stoppage, but upon closer looking you can see that Chavez, while losing rounds, was adminstering a real beating to Meldrick through his counter punching. It was a TRAGIC situation, the fact that it happened so close to the very end, and it's a hard 12th round to watch, but Taylor was really in a bad way, and the ref wasn't looking at the time.

Ruddock-Tyson-I don't even see the argument for this one. Razor had come on a little in the previous round but besides that was getting his ass kicked and he looked pretty messed up from that Tyson attack in the 7th. He was getting knocked out that round.

Now one I DO believe was premature.

McCline-Shufford-AWFUL stoppage. SHufford is kicking Jameel's ass and then McCline drops Charles, legs aren't great but he gets them back and then Jameel is winging wide and sloppy punches to Charles on the ropes that aren't landing AT ALL. . .and the ref jumps in. Worst stoppage I've seen in recent memory.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Oct 2006, 17:26

Just watched Ali-Lyle and it was perhaps a little premature. Ali seemed to be wary of punching himself out and the initial onslaught had subsided a little. Using that stoppage as a yardstick I think Ali could have been stopped in the first fight with Frazier.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Oct 2006, 13:51

Ali-Lyle was a borderline case. Lyle was winning the fight (it was ali's worst performance up to that time) but he got into trouble. Had he been throwing punches back the referee wouldn't have stopped it. However, since Lyle wasn't punching back the referee shouldn't be criticized too much.

Lewis-McCall Lewis was in some trouble form one big shot. At the time I was shcoked that it was stopped. Lewis may have survived, he may not have. But he should have been given a chance.

Chavez-Taylor Taylor didn't seem to be that badly hurt. Just because Taylor didn't answer the referees questions doesn't mean it should have been stopped. He may simply not have heard the referee.

Ruddock-Tyson Ruddock didn't seem to be hurt that badly. Watch the referee (Richard Stelle) right before he stops it. He isn't even looking at Ruddock to see how badly he was hurt.
However tyson was well ahead in this fight and Ruddock's chances of winning were very slim.

Shufford- McCline. This fight may by ESPN standards was a big fight but it really was a fight between a fring contender (McCline) and a jorneyman (Shufford).

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 Oct 2006, 13:55

Ezzard wrote:Just watched Ali-Lyle and it was perhaps a little premature. Ali seemed to be wary of punching himself out and the initial onslaught had subsided a little. Using that stoppage as a yardstick I think Ali could have been stopped in the first fight with Frazier.

Yep. Ali appeared to be hurt much worse in the 11th against Frazier.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 12 Oct 2006, 13:57

Decagon wrote:
cosand wrote:his vision isnt affected
Huh?!?!?! Bitschko had blood gushing into his eye, and he couldn't see the punches coming. The doctor stopped the fight because when he asked Bitschko to look at him, Bitschko had to turn his whole head to do so. You simply don't know too much about that fight. How old were you when it happened? 13? 14?

How old are you?? After all, you're the one calling him "Bitschko"

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 12 Oct 2006, 15:40

Ambling Alp wrote:Ali-Lyle was a borderline case. Lyle was winning the fight (it was ali's worst performance up to that time) but he got into trouble. Had he been throwing punches back the referee wouldn't have stopped it. However, since Lyle wasn't punching back the referee shouldn't be criticized too much.

Lewis-McCall Lewis was in some trouble form one big shot. At the time I was shcoked that it was stopped. Lewis may have survived, he may not have. But he should have been given a chance.

Chavez-Taylor Taylor didn't seem to be that badly hurt. Just because Taylor didn't answer the referees questions doesn't mean it should have been stopped. He may simply not have heard the referee.

Ruddock-Tyson Ruddock didn't seem to be hurt that badly. Watch the referee (Richard Stelle) right before he stops it. He isn't even looking at Ruddock to see how badly he was hurt.
However tyson was well ahead in this fight and Ruddock's chances of winning were very slim.

Shufford- McCline. This fight may by ESPN standards was a big fight but it really was a fight between a fring contender (McCline) and a jorneyman (Shufford).

Alp, so what was Steele to do. The guy couldn't answer him twice and you come up with the ridiculous possibility that maybe he didn't hear him. Well here's one for you Alp, maybe he was just plain out of it and so distressed that he didn't even see Steele. How about that??

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 12 Oct 2006, 15:43

As for Lewis, what chance are you talking about. The guy couldn't stand damn well up and you say give him a chance. I don't know, maybe it's just me being a wee bit silly, but how desperate do some fighters need to be before they have to be protecetd??

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 12 Oct 2006, 15:50

walshb wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Ali-Lyle was a borderline case. Lyle was winning the fight (it was ali's worst performance up to that time) but he got into trouble. Had he been throwing punches back the referee wouldn't have stopped it. However, since Lyle wasn't punching back the referee shouldn't be criticized too much.

Lewis-McCall Lewis was in some trouble form one big shot. At the time I was shcoked that it was stopped. Lewis may have survived, he may not have. But he should have been given a chance.

Chavez-Taylor Taylor didn't seem to be that badly hurt. Just because Taylor didn't answer the referees questions doesn't mean it should have been stopped. He may simply not have heard the referee.

Ruddock-Tyson Ruddock didn't seem to be hurt that badly. Watch the referee (Richard Stelle) right before he stops it. He isn't even looking at Ruddock to see how badly he was hurt.
However tyson was well ahead in this fight and Ruddock's chances of winning were very slim.

Shufford- McCline. This fight may by ESPN standards was a big fight but it really was a fight between a fring contender (McCline) and a jorneyman (Shufford).
Alp, so what was Steele to do. The guy couldn't answer him twice and you come up with the ridiculous possibility that maybe he didn't hear him. Well here's one for you Alp, maybe he was just plain out of it and so distressed that he didn't even see Steele. How about that??

I won't say that Taylor wasn't a little messed up.. but you gotta figure, the place is LOUD, he's in a semi-fucked state, tired, and Lou Duva supposedly was jumping around like a dumbass near/on the ring apron.

Steele called the fight off so fast after he asked the question the 2nd time it wasnt even funny... Even if he let the fight go after the question, Taylor probably wouldnt have been punched again before the bell rang. Steele could see the blinking light behind Taylor's head.

Other forces were at work that night, for other reasons... just like they were for Whitaker vs. Chavez. That decision was the worst I think I've ever seen when considering its importance, and lack of accuracy.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Oct 2006, 18:21

In the Taylor-Chavez fight, Steele should have taken a good look at Taylor and determined if he could continue. It wasn't just a possibility that Taylor didn't hear Steele; it's a probability. He had just been knocked down. His mind probably was on what he would do next. There were thousands of people screaming (including his own corner) and he wasn't looking at Steele.

As for Lewis-McCall, Lewis did seem a bit hurt, but he may have recovered. Fighters have been hurt worse and came back. If you use the same logic that a referee should ask the fighter if he can go on (like in Taylor-Chavez) then why ignore it if the fighter (in this case Lewis) says he is ok?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Oct 2006, 18:24

The Great John L wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Just watched Ali-Lyle and it was perhaps a little premature. Ali seemed to be wary of punching himself out and the initial onslaught had subsided a little. Using that stoppage as a yardstick I think Ali could have been stopped in the first fight with Frazier.
Yep. Ali appeared to be hurt much worse in the 11th against Frazier.

John L- I don't think Ali was hurt that bad against Frazier. He seemed to be momentarily stunned, but seemed to regroup. He was clowning around for a while later in the round; acting as if he was really hurt badly.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 13 Oct 2006, 05:54

JCS83MD wrote:
walshb wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Ali-Lyle was a borderline case. Lyle was winning the fight (it was ali's worst performance up to that time) but he got into trouble. Had he been throwing punches back the referee wouldn't have stopped it. However, since Lyle wasn't punching back the referee shouldn't be criticized too much.

Lewis-McCall Lewis was in some trouble form one big shot. At the time I was shcoked that it was stopped. Lewis may have survived, he may not have. But he should have been given a chance.

Chavez-Taylor Taylor didn't seem to be that badly hurt. Just because Taylor didn't answer the referees questions doesn't mean it should have been stopped. He may simply not have heard the referee.

Ruddock-Tyson Ruddock didn't seem to be hurt that badly. Watch the referee (Richard Stelle) right before he stops it. He isn't even looking at Ruddock to see how badly he was hurt.
However tyson was well ahead in this fight and Ruddock's chances of winning were very slim.

Shufford- McCline. This fight may by ESPN standards was a big fight but it really was a fight between a fring contender (McCline) and a jorneyman (Shufford).
Alp, so what was Steele to do. The guy couldn't answer him twice and you come up with the ridiculous possibility that maybe he didn't hear him. Well here's one for you Alp, maybe he was just plain out of it and so distressed that he didn't even see Steele. How about that??
I won't say that Taylor wasn't a little messed up.. but you gotta figure, the place is LOUD, he's in a semi-smeg state, tired, and Lou Duva supposedly was jumping around like a dumbass near/on the ring apron.

Steele called the fight off so fast after he asked the question the 2nd time it wasnt even funny... Even if he let the fight go after the question, Taylor probably wouldnt have been punched again before the bell rang. Steele could see the blinking light behind Taylor's head.

Other forces were at work that night, for other reasons... just like they were for Whitaker vs. Chavez. That decision was the worst I think I've ever seen when considering its importance, and lack of accuracy.

I suppose 'other forces' broke Taylors eyesocket, lacerated his mouth and fucked him up for the rest of his career then because of the beating that he took in that fight eh!??...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Oct 2006, 06:01

Here's an interesting question. Does the referee stop the fight to prevent the loser from taking any mroe damage or does he stop the fight because the winner has been skill/powerful (or whatever) enough to render his opponent beaten.

Is the ref primarily protecting the loser or acknowledging the winner's superiority?

If its the former (and the ref is aware that it's too late in the fight for another punch to land) then Taylor, so close to the end of the fight, should have been allowed to continue. If it's the latter then Chavez had showed his superiority and the fight should have been stopped.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 13 Oct 2006, 06:17

The fact is that Taylor was out of it when he got up and had he taken another punch there could have been a fatality... even with the time running down Chavez could still have got in another punch or two had Steele just waved it on... anyone who thinks that the stoppage was premature should look at whats happened to Taylor since that fight... really Taylors corner should have pulled him out themselves about 2 rounds previously...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Oct 2006, 06:23

The other interesting thing about Chavez-Taylor is that no matter what the outcome of the fight very few were in any doubt of what the result of the rematch would be.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 13 Oct 2006, 09:12

All this shit talk of 'what if he did or did not hear Steele, that Steele should have given him a chance. I watched the fight. I watched a tremendous display of skill and courage and strength from both guys, but from rd 9 onwards it was eveident to me anyway that Chavez was doing the more damage than Taylor was. Steele too was aware I'm sure throughout of the state of both fighters. He was the one who stared into Taylors eyes when Taylor went down. It is his responsibility before anyone else to protect a fighter from unnecessary pain. He gave Meldrick not 1, but 2 opportunities to reply. He DID not....what poxy else was Steele to do. I think a lot are forgetting the previous 35 minutes of punishment both guys had taken. Taylor to me ws one shot away from a COMA and Steele prevented that shot.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Oct 2006, 13:22

Decagon wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:In the Taylor-Chavez fight, Steele should have taken a good look at Taylor and determined if he could continue. It wasn't just a possibility that Taylor didn't hear Steele; it's a probability. He had just been knocked down. His mind probably was on what he would do next. There were thousands of people screaming (including his own corner) and he wasn't looking at Steele.

As for Lewis-McCall, Lewis did seem a bit hurt, but he may have recovered. Fighters have been hurt worse and came back. If you use the same logic that a referee should ask the fighter if he can go on (like in Taylor-Chavez) then why ignore it if the fighter (in this case Lewis) says he is ok?
Sorry, but you're wrong. Under the rules of the time, and the current rules, the referee is given only eight seconds to determine whether or not a fighter can continue. Steele took at least that.

I am not saying that the referee should take more than 8 seconds as the rules state. I'm saying that within that time the referee should get close to the fighter and take a good look at the fighter before making a judgement whether or not the fight should continue.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Oct 2006, 13:38

walshb wrote:All this shit talk of 'what if he did or did not hear Steele, that Steele should have given him a chance. I watched the fight. I watched a tremendous display of skill and courage and strength from both guys, but from rd 9 onwards it was eveident to me anyway that Chavez was doing the more damage than Taylor was. Steele too was aware I'm sure throughout of the state of both fighters. He was the one who stared into Taylors eyes when Taylor went down. It is his responsibility before anyone else to protect a fighter from unnecessary pain. He gave Meldrick not 1, but 2 opportunities to reply. He DID not....what poxy else was Steele to do. I think a lot are forgetting the previous 35 minutes of punishment both guys had taken. Taylor to me ws one shot away from a COMA and Steele prevented that shot.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree whether Taylor could have continued. However if you are going use asking the fighter if he can continue as a yardstick as to whether a fight should be stopped or not, then why should the Lewis-McCall fight have been stopped? The referee asked Lewis if he could continue and Lewis said yes. Why ask the question if you are going to ignore the answer?

As for Richard Steele, he has been inconsistent in many of his fights that he was the referee.
The 2nd Chacon-Boza Edwards fight was more brutal than the Taylor-Chavez fight. It last 15 times and Steele could have stopped either fighter from continuing at various points and didn't do so.
The Mayweather-Corrales fight was for the most part a beat down and Steele never stopped it. (Corrales own corner did).

Steele also was the referee for the Frank Tate-Michael Olajide fight. Tate beat up Olajide for 15 rounds and Steele never stopped it.

All 3 of these fights warranted a stoppage more than Taylor-Chavez.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 13 Oct 2006, 13:58

Well if those other fights you mentioned warranted a stoppage more so than TAYLOR'S, I say Steele should have stoped them and he was wrong. But he was right to stop Taylor. Asking a question is just one measure a ref has to determine if a fighter is coherent and alert. It doesn't mean that they are definitely in a fit state to continue so I think that arguement can be thrown out. Lewis may have been able to recite a god damn play, but he was physically unable to stand up and had to be held from collapsing. Hence the ref had no other choice but to call a halt.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Oct 2006, 00:35

walshb wrote:Well if those other fights you mentioned warranted a stoppage more so than TAYLOR'S, I say Steele should have stoped them and he was wrong. But he was right to stop Taylor. Asking a question is just one measure a ref has to determine if a fighter is coherent and alert. It doesn't mean that they are definitely in a fit state to continue so I think that arguement can be thrown out. Lewis may have been able to recite a god damn play, but he was physically unable to stand up and had to be held from collapsing. Hence the ref had no other choice but to call a halt.

You kept pointing out that Steele asked Taylor twice and that he didn't respond and that Stele was justified in stopping it. Istill maintain that in all likelyhood that Taylor never heard him. Are you now saying that even if Taylor had responded that he wanted to continue that he should have been allowed to?

I feel that you are exaggerating how hurt Lewis was. It is simply untrue that he was physically unable to stand up. He got hit with a good shot, got knocked down and got up. He was able to respond verbally that he wanted to continue, and he had the presence of mind to put up his gloves to show that he was ok. He also had the presence of mind to complain immediately when the referee stopped the fight.
I have seen (and I'm sure you gave as well) seen a fighter seem to be hurt badly but somehow he survives and goes on to win the fight. Off of the top of my head I can think of Holmes against Snipes, Bowe against Holyfield III, Foreman against Lyle. If the referee let the fight continue and McCall started to tee off on Lewis and he was unable to defend himself then the by all means the referee should then jump in and stop it. But Lewis deserved the chance to do that and he didn't get that chance. I don't say this as a fan of Lewis (I really am not for or against him).

I agree that referees do need to step in sometimes and stop fights. However, if a fight is stopped as easily as Lewis-McCall everytime, we will seldom have a good fight because it will be stopped as soon as one guy gets in any trouble at all.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Oct 2006, 00:51

Decagon wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:
Decagon wrote:Sorry, but you're wrong. Under the rules of the time, and the current rules, the referee is given only eight seconds to determine whether or not a fighter can continue. Steele took at least that.
I am not saying that the referee should take more than 8 seconds as the rules state. I'm saying that within that time the referee should get close to the fighter and take a good look at the fighter before making a judgement whether or not the fight should continue.
What do you want him to do? Use a stethescope? No one's ever died in a Richard Steele fight, and in the end, Taylor did take too much punishment. I only wish that a few more referees and officials had been as thoughtful as Steele was.

What I want Steele to do is take a good look at the fighter and make a good decision whether or not he should be allowed to continue. This is what he is trained to do and what he is paid to do.

While it's true that no one ever died from a Richard Steele fight, what does that prove? What % of referees have done a fight where a fighter died? 1%, 2%?

You think Steele is a thoughtful referee? As I mentioned before, in other fights that Steele officated, a stoppage was more warranted than Taylor-Chavez and he didn't stop them. ( I mentioned Chacon-BozaEdwards, Mayweather-Corrales, and Tate-Olajide).

In the first Ruddock-Tyson fight, he didn't even look at Ruddock (who wasn't in serious trouble) before he stopped it.
There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to how he stops fights.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 15 Oct 2006, 01:23

I Dont exactly remember but someone said that Steele should of stopped it in the 9th and 10th rounds so If Your going to let a fighter fight another 6 mins why not let him finish the fight with less than 10 seconds left that night he made a mistake

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Oct 2006, 17:26

Ambling Alp wrote:
walshb wrote:Well if those other fights you mentioned warranted a stoppage more so than TAYLOR'S, I say Steele should have stoped them and he was wrong. But he was right to stop Taylor. Asking a question is just one measure a ref has to determine if a fighter is coherent and alert. It doesn't mean that they are definitely in a fit state to continue so I think that arguement can be thrown out. Lewis may have been able to recite a god damn play, but he was physically unable to stand up and had to be held from collapsing. Hence the ref had no other choice but to call a halt.
You kept pointing out that Steele asked Taylor twice and that he didn't respond and that Stele was justified in stopping it. Istill maintain that in all likelyhood that Taylor never heard him. Are you now saying that even if Taylor had responded that he wanted to continue that he should have been allowed to?

I feel that you are exaggerating how hurt Lewis was. It is simply untrue that he was physically unable to stand up. He got hit with a good shot, got knocked down and got up. He was able to respond verbally that he wanted to continue, and he had the presence of mind to put up his gloves to show that he was ok. He also had the presence of mind to complain immediately when the referee stopped the fight.
I have seen (and I'm sure you gave as well) seen a fighter seem to be hurt badly but somehow he survives and goes on to win the fight. Off of the top of my head I can think of Holmes against Snipes, Bowe against Holyfield III, Foreman against Lyle. If the referee let the fight continue and McCall started to tee off on Lewis and he was unable to defend himself then the by all means the referee should then jump in and stop it. But Lewis deserved the chance to do that and he didn't get that chance. I don't say this as a fan of Lewis (I really am not for or against him).

I agree that referees do need to step in sometimes and stop fights. However, if a fight is stopped as easily as Lewis-McCall everytime, we will seldom have a good fight because it will be stopped as soon as one guy gets in any trouble at all.

Alp, with respect, I think you should mention that Lewis stumbled forward into the ref at the point when he (the ref) was trying to determine if Lewis was in a fit state to continue. At that point the ref immediately waved it off.