Julio Cesar Chavez

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 10 Mar 2008, 22:07

I assume we're talking about a fight at 140, & that's where I've based my decision. You guys on the same page?

I'll say this --- De La Hoya had serious hitting power at 140. He's not stopping Chavez, but he can hurt him with combinations.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 10 Mar 2008, 23:11

Yeah, I'm thinking of 140.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 11 Mar 2008, 00:07

First off I'd like to say that to be quite honest I hardly see anything wrong with the judges' scores for Chavez' fight against Whitaker. Although Whitaker seemed to win by most accounts I thought rounds-wise it was a very even fight with Chavez winning several rounds due to managing to land a few of his harder shots to Sweet P's quicker weaker shots. Even Sports Illustrated, despite making a huge issue of it with their cover stating "Robbed!" with a picture of Whitaker wound up having the fight a draw when they actually broke the fight down. I think Whitaker won his rounds a bit more clearly with flashy flurries, but I also can't discount Chavez' own work where sometimes he'd land Whitaker would grimace and try to stay away for a few seconds before re-establishing his rhythm so not to end up like Taylor...

But anyway, I think like others that Chavez is one of, if not THE Greatest Mexican Fighter of all time. He was skilled and he could brawl and was tough as all hell, even managing to take massive shots and keep coming forward well post-prime against all types of opponents.

On a Prime-For-Prime basis I'd take Chavez over anyone in history 130-down, nearly everyone with maybe an exception or two at 135, and ditto at 140. He might not have stayed at LW very long, but in his few fights there he proved he was just as destructive moving up in weight and further proved it by moving up further and dominating 140 until he eventually took that one step too far we sometimes see with great fighters up to 147 and the Whitaker draw. Even as he deteriorated he was still a warrior, meeting a young primed Frankie Randall and managing to split fights with him, and even fighting De La Hoya twice despite getting battered and his face shredded twice in his pursuit to take out the young up-and-coming phenom who'd soon become a HOF fighter himself.

He was a true warrior and a great fighter, which eventually worked against him because he really fought for way too long, but his thick skull (literally and figuratively) really made him who he was in every sense and protected him physically and record-wise, because he'd never stop coming forward trying to steamroll his opponent.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 11 Mar 2008, 00:14

I have to disagree DM. I often think that people do exaggerate when they claim that Whitaker won every round, but, besides that, after the fifth I think Whitaker took over and I don't see how it could have been a draw. I do agree that Whitaker had the edge at Welterweight, and as I said earlier Chavez didn't come in at 147, he was at 142 while Whitaker was closer to the Welterweight limit. And I agree with the rest of your post.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 11 Mar 2008, 00:23

I Feel Fine wrote:I have to disagree DM. I often think that people do exaggerate when they claim that Whitaker won every round, but, besides that, after the fifth I think Whitaker took over and I don't see how it could have been a draw. I do agree that Whitaker had the edge at Welterweight, and as I said earlier Chavez didn't come in at 147, he was at 142 while Whitaker was closer to the Welterweight limit. And I agree with the rest of your post.

I'm not saying I cant understand how people have Whitaker winning. There were a few toss-up rounds IMO that if you give them to Whitaker he definitely gets the decision.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Mar 2008, 05:38

Diamond WEAPON wrote:First off I'd like to say that to be quite honest I hardly see anything wrong with the judges' scores for Chavez' fight against Whitaker. Although Whitaker seemed to win by most accounts I thought rounds-wise it was a very even fight with Chavez winning several rounds due to managing to land a few of his harder shots to Sweet P's quicker weaker shots. Even Sports Illustrated, despite making a huge issue of it with their cover stating "Robbed!" with a picture of Whitaker wound up having the fight a draw when they actually broke the fight down. I think Whitaker won his rounds a bit more clearly with flashy flurries, but I also can't discount Chavez' own work where sometimes he'd land Whitaker would grimace and try to stay away for a few seconds before re-establishing his rhythm so not to end up like Taylor...

But anyway, I think like others that Chavez is one of, if not THE Greatest Mexican Fighter of all time. He was skilled and he could brawl and was tough as all hell, even managing to take massive shots and keep coming forward well post-prime against all types of opponents.

On a Prime-For-Prime basis I'd take Chavez over anyone in history 130-down, nearly everyone with maybe an exception or two at 135, and ditto at 140. He might not have stayed at LW very long, but in his few fights there he proved he was just as destructive moving up in weight and further proved it by moving up further and dominating 140 until he eventually took that one step too far we sometimes see with great fighters up to 147 and the Whitaker draw. Even as he deteriorated he was still a warrior, meeting a young primed Frankie Randall and managing to split fights with him, and even fighting De La Hoya twice despite getting battered and his face shredded twice in his pursuit to take out the young up-and-coming phenom who'd soon become a HOF fighter himself.

He was a true warrior and a great fighter, which eventually worked against him because he really fought for way too long, but his thick skull (literally and figuratively) really made him who he was in every sense and protected him physically and record-wise, because he'd never stop coming forward trying to steamroll his opponent.

I agree with everything you have said here. The only thing that I do not agree that Frankie Randall, 32, was a young primed. How could that be? Randall was a year older than Chavez I think when they met.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Mar 2008, 05:41

I Feel Fine wrote:I would favor Chavez, though if Oscar did beat a prime Chavez I suppose it wouldn't be too surprising. But the claim that Oscar is as tough as Chavez isn't true, as is the claim that Oscar could box with the best. Osar had very good boxing skills, but he is not up there with the best in terms of boxing skills.

I agree, Oscar compared to the all time greats, does not have the skills of what they used to have.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 08:18

Elmer, remind me why it is again you don't like De La Hoya? Not a shot at you, but I know you do not care for him, except I don't know the reason why.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:09

Goodnight, Irene wrote:De La Hoya would never have been able to last fifteen solid rounds, in my view. With Mayweather Sr. in his corner, he developed from a ten-round fighter to a twelve-rounder (barely), but had he been in the era of fifteen rounders, his career would look substantially less glossy (& as a fan, I thank God he wasn't in that era).

In any case, I think saying a twelve-rounder is De La Hoya's all the way is just too optimistic. I don't think anyone would doubt the early rounds would be De La Hoya's --- Chavez hasn't the speed to compete when both men are fresh. What he will do, however, is make De La Hoya work for three minutes of every round. He'll keep De La Hoya on his toes, & we saw how tired he became doing that against Trinidad (robbery, I tells ya!). Trinidad couldn't put one-tenth the amount of psychological pressure on De La Hoya that a young Chavez would. I think this would look quite a bit like Chavez-Taylor I, with either a narrow decision thanks to some big late rounds pulling it out for Chavez, or possibly even a late stoppage (I'd expect a tough fighter like De La Hoya to last the distance, but it's not impossible to see Chavez getting to him, though to De La Hoya's credit, he's only ever been KO'd by the much larger Hopkins).

No way in hell De La Hoya stops Chavez, though, Walsh. He couldn't stop Quartey, Mosley, Trinidad, & none of those men are even close to being as durable as a prime Chavez.

I would have to favour Chavez 60-40 over twelve rounds, & much more definitively over fifteen.

At 140lbs, Oscar could stop JC. At 147 he wasn't the same force and Mosley is a hell of a fighter and Trinidad is a natural welter/junior middle...

Chavez is at best a 140lb fighter and at 140lbs, Oscar really could bang, and in rapid combos....

It's unlkely he stops JC, but it's more unlikely that JC stops Oscar. JC wasn't a vicious puncher and Oscar's chin was grade A.....

I see it going to the cards and Oscar is just too far ahead after 9-10 rds for any comeback. Does anyone believe that Oscar wasn't as tough or strong or hadn't the CHIN Taylor had?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Mar 2008, 14:04

walshb wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:De La Hoya would never have been able to last fifteen solid rounds, in my view. With Mayweather Sr. in his corner, he developed from a ten-round fighter to a twelve-rounder (barely), but had he been in the era of fifteen rounders, his career would look substantially less glossy (& as a fan, I thank God he wasn't in that era).

In any case, I think saying a twelve-rounder is De La Hoya's all the way is just too optimistic. I don't think anyone would doubt the early rounds would be De La Hoya's --- Chavez hasn't the speed to compete when both men are fresh. What he will do, however, is make De La Hoya work for three minutes of every round. He'll keep De La Hoya on his toes, & we saw how tired he became doing that against Trinidad (robbery, I tells ya!). Trinidad couldn't put one-tenth the amount of psychological pressure on De La Hoya that a young Chavez would. I think this would look quite a bit like Chavez-Taylor I, with either a narrow decision thanks to some big late rounds pulling it out for Chavez, or possibly even a late stoppage (I'd expect a tough fighter like De La Hoya to last the distance, but it's not impossible to see Chavez getting to him, though to De La Hoya's credit, he's only ever been KO'd by the much larger Hopkins).

No way in hell De La Hoya stops Chavez, though, Walsh. He couldn't stop Quartey, Mosley, Trinidad, & none of those men are even close to being as durable as a prime Chavez.

I would have to favour Chavez 60-40 over twelve rounds, & much more definitively over fifteen.
At 140lbs, Oscar could stop JC. At 147 he wasn't the same force and Mosley is a hell of a fighter and Trinidad is a natural welter/junior middle...

Chavez is at best a 140lb fighter and at 140lbs, Oscar really could bang, and in rapid combos....

It's unlkely he stops JC, but it's more unlikely that JC stops Oscar. JC wasn't a vicious puncher and Oscar's chin was grade A.....

I see it going to the cards and Oscar is just too far ahead after 9-10 rds for any comeback. Does anyone believe that Oscar wasn't as tough or strong or hadn't the CHIN Taylor had?

Oscar didn't had the skills that Meldrick Taylor had. 2 different leagues. How are you going to compare a complete fighter like Taylor with an amateur looking technique fighter like Oscar?

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 11 Mar 2008, 14:20

Oscar was the bigger puncher, better chinned and naturally stronger fighter. Taylor was rapid fast, but not as hard to hit and not stronger....

If Taylor and Oscar met at 140lbs, I'd bet on Oscar to take Taylor
out late rds. Oscar is far more dangerous to JC, than Taylor...

JC would not STOP Oscar......

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 12 Mar 2008, 01:27

walshb wrote:Oscar was the bigger puncher, better chinned and naturally stronger fighter. Taylor was rapid fast, but not as hard to hit and not stronger....

If Taylor and Oscar met at 140lbs, I'd bet on Oscar to take Taylor
out late rds. Oscar is far more dangerous to JC, than Taylor...

JC would not STOP Oscar......

BULLSHIT, Oscar does not have what it takes to beat a guy like Meldrick. Too ahead in his class, a complete fighter that was beating Chavez, not by large margin like some people in here say, but he was beating him.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 12 Mar 2008, 01:56

Never mind, Walsh, what Ali is to Granberry, De La Hoya is to Elmer. You've already tipped your hand on De La Hoya, Elmer, we all know how much you despise him, & how it blatantly colours your judgement.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 12 Mar 2008, 02:59

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Never mind, Walsh, what Ali is to Granberry, De La Hoya is to Elmer. You've already tipped your hand on De La Hoya, Elmer, we all know how much you despise him, & how it blatantly colours your judgement.

At least I can say that Ali is one of the all-time greats. DeLaHoya??? mmmmmmm there are TOO MANY, TOO MANY IN FRONT OF HIM.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 12 Mar 2008, 06:46

Elmer is the only person I know who thinks I could step into a ring & beat the prime De La Hoya. Very flattering

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Mar 2008, 03:38

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Mar 2008, 15:39

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Elmer is the only person I know who thinks I could step into a ring & beat the prime De La Hoya. Very flattering

CAN YOU BOX?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Mar 2008, 21:50

Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 13 Mar 2008, 23:59

Who wins between Chavez in his prime versus Felix Trinidad in his, at 147? I can see arguments both ways, and maybe I'm just being effected by the fact that this is a Chavez thread, but I'm thinking Chavez by close decision.

I think I'd cut off an ear lobe ala Van Gogh to see that fight, that would be an incredible war.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:52

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

Well, you got to explain me, at what weight class he is considered FIRST, as an all-time great?

What fights will put him in the elite of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound of all-time? I CAN'T PICTURE HIM IN THE TOP 100...THERE ARE TOO MANY GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN OSCAR. At least 150 fighters.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:52

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

Well, you got to explain me, at what weight class he is considered FIRST, as an all-time great?

What fights will put him in the elite of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound of all-time? I CAN'T PICTURE HIM IN THE TOP 100...THERE ARE TOO MANY GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN OSCAR. At least 150 fighters.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:52

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

Well, you got to explain me, at what weight class he is considered FIRST, as an all-time great?

What fights will put him in the elite of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound of all-time? I CAN'T PICTURE HIM IN THE TOP 100...THERE ARE TOO MANY GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN OSCAR. At least 150 fighters.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:53

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

Well, you got to explain me, at what weight class he is considered FIRST, as an all-time great?

What fights will put him in the elite of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound of all-time? I CAN'T PICTURE HIM IN THE TOP 100...THERE ARE TOO MANY GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN OSCAR. At least 150 fighters.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:53

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Fight, yes. Box? Not really, I was never much good. However, I am quite a bit bigger than him, & it is De La Hoya we're talking about. I mean, what can he do? He's likely to fall over himself trying to hit me, right?

He is one of the greats, Elmer. You just have to live with it.

Well, you got to explain me, at what weight class he is considered FIRST, as an all-time great?

What fights will put him in the elite of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound of all-time? I CAN'T PICTURE HIM IN THE TOP 100...THERE ARE TOO MANY GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN OSCAR. At least 150 fighters.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:56

I Feel Fine wrote:Who wins between Chavez in his prime versus Felix Trinidad in his, at 147? I can see arguments both ways, and maybe I'm just being effected by the fact that this is a Chavez thread, but I'm thinking Chavez by close decision.

I think I'd cut off an ear lobe ala Van Gogh to see that fight, that would be an incredible war.

Chavez would have been too slow for this weight class. I do not know if he could take Tito's shots. Tito at 147 was faster than Chavez. I could see a war at the beginning, but Tito's size and power would have been too much in my opinion