Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Nov 2024, 00:03
i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.
ya, even usyk's cruiser achievements dont match the likes of james toney's cruiser career, needs more meaningless fights vs C level '10 round fighters' on his record. add your vote/voice, oh hesitant one
Wlad beat a guy called Chris Byrd who beat Tua, a Tua in much better shape than the flabby version who faced Lewis.
Tua can't be better than anyone Wad beat when Wad has a win over a Tua-conqueror.
To make things worse Tua was horribly out of shape vs Lewis so not even a good version of Tua like say the Tua of the Ruiz and Ike fights.
Flabby or not, he was still a fvckton better than Ross Purrity.
Which has nothing to do with win resume.
Wlads losses didn't prevent him from beating guys better than the guys who beat him.
If losses are such a big deal though I don't see how you can rate Tyson or Lewis above Usyk.
How can a guy who lost to McCall and Rahman be ahead of Usyk? Or someone who lost to Buster Douglas?
Let me get this straight. Lennox Lewis's losses matter, but Wlad's don't.
I'd like to live on your planet for a few hours, it would be fun.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Nov 2024, 00:03
i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.
ya, even usyk's cruiser achievements dont match the likes of james toney's cruiser career, needs more meaningless fights vs C level '10 round fighters' on his record. add your vote/voice, oh hesitant one
whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?
straight up answer bruh
I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.
James Toney is one of my all time favorite fighters, and I don't see how you could make any argument whatsoever that he's a better Cruiserweight than Usyk.
There's not even a flimsy argument to be made there.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Nov 2024, 00:03
i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.
He has won convincingly. Fury is probably his closest fight at heavyweight and many people had him winning 8-4 plus the knockdown and he was 37 for that fight and past his best. Given his lack of power I'd say he's performed very well. He's not a huge puncher so he's not going to be blowing guys out early.
Holyfield was taken the distance by 42 year old versions of Foreman and Holmes, lost to Moorer and Bowe, had a close fights with Mercer, was dropped by journeyman Bert Cooper, struggled with a badly out of shape Bowe in their rematch in a fight many feel he lost. He's clearly a lot more dominant than Holyfield who was getting dropped by journeyman. You think Holyfield could win more convincingly than Usyk when guys like Cooper were giving him problems?
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Nov 2024, 00:03
i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.
He has won convincingly. Fury is probably his closest fight at heavyweight and many people had him winning 8-4 plus the knockdown and he was 37 for that fight and past his best. Given his lack of power I'd say he's performed very well. He's not a huge puncher so he's not going to be blowing guys out early.
Holyfield was taken the distance by 42 year old versions of Foreman and Holmes, lost to Moorer and Bowe, had a close fights with Mercer, was dropped by journeyman Bert Cooper, struggled with a badly out of shape Bowe in their rematch in a fight many feel he lost. He's clearly a lot more dominant than Holyfield who was getting dropped by journeyman. You think Holyfield could win more convincingly than Usyk when guys like Cooper were giving him problems?
It's Klitschko, so in Cojimar's world, somehow it doesn't count.
Holyfield did win a lot of fight convincingly. He stopped the first 7 guys he fought as a heavyweight. This included Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas. Holyfield's competition has been light years better than Usyk's.
Usyk has stopped two guys in the last five years. Two. Joshua was competitive with him twice and Fury was once.
Bowe was badly out of shape against Holyfield? That was a great fight. There has not been a heavyweight as good as that in all of the years since then. and Cojimar is trying to use this as evidence against Holyfield!!!
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Nov 2024, 00:03
i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.
ya, even usyk's cruiser achievements dont match the likes of james toney's cruiser career, needs more meaningless fights vs C level '10 round fighters' on his record. add your vote/voice, oh hesitant one
I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.
James Toney is one of my all time favorite fighters, and I don't see how you could make any argument whatsoever that he's a better Cruiserweight than Usyk.
There's not even a flimsy argument to be made there.
ya, seems pretty dang stupid doesn't it. toney's cruiser career superior to usyk's? because usyk didnt fight enough C level nobodies? LOL, no wonder the vote is 32-3
then again it's alp, and he also has a raging throbbing hate boner for ukrainian dudes and boxers remotely recent
It's Klitschko, so in Cojimar's world, somehow it doesn't count.
Holyfield did win a lot of fight convincingly. He stopped the first 7 guys he fought as a heavyweight. This included Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas. Holyfield's competition has been light years better than Usyk's.
Usyk has stopped two guys in the last five years. Two. Joshua was competitive with him twice and Fury was once.
Bowe was badly out of shape against Holyfield? That was a great fight. There has not been a heavyweight as good as that in all of the years since then. and Cojimar is trying to use this as evidence against Holyfield!!!
Holyfield's pre-Tyson competition at heavyweight seems pretty unexceptional and certainly no better than Usyk's. Joshua was hardly competitive in either fight with Usyk winning handily. Holyfield-Mercer was more competitive than either AJ fight. Wins over Joshua and Fury (competitive or otherwise) seem nowhere near as bad as losing to Michael Moorer and losing a trilogy to Bowe. Usyk was also 37 against Fury, I don't recall Holyfield looking so hot at 37 vs Ruiz.
Many people had Holyfield losing 4 rounds to a 42 year old Holmes but I'm supposed to believe a prime AJ couldn't come close to winning that many rounds?
Flabby or not, he was still a fvckton better than Ross Purrity.
Which has nothing to do with win resume.
Wlads losses didn't prevent him from beating guys better than the guys who beat him.
If losses are such a big deal though I don't see how you can rate Tyson or Lewis above Usyk.
How can a guy who lost to McCall and Rahman be ahead of Usyk? Or someone who lost to Buster Douglas?
Let me get this straight. Lennox Lewis's losses matter, but Wlad's don't.
I'd like to live on your planet for a few hours, it would be fun.
Wlad's losses are a much bigger negative if he's being compared to someone without bad losses of their own (like Rocky Marciano). Against Lewis they are counterbalanced by Lewis's own losses.
If someone wants to argue Brewster and Sanders keep Wlad out of the top 10 you can make the exact same argument against Lewis.
If you want to argue Rocky is ahead of Wlad based on the Sanders and Brewster fights that actually makes sense.
Last edited by Cojimar 1946 on 24 Nov 2024, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2024, 18:41
Wlad's losses are a much bigger negative if he's being compared to someone without bad losses of their own (like Rocky Marciano). Against Lewis they are counterbalanced by Lewis's own losses.
Difference is, Lewis avenged both of his losses. Wlad didn't avenge any of his. PLUS Wlad was stopped by Ross Purrity, that's Rossssss..... Purrity.
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2024, 18:41
Wlad's losses are a much bigger negative if he's being compared to someone without bad losses of their own (like Rocky Marciano). Against Lewis they are counterbalanced by Lewis's own losses.
Difference is, Lewis avenged both of his losses. Wlad didn't avenge any of his. PLUS Wlad was stopped by Ross Purrity, that's Rossssss..... Purrity.
I don't see that as a big negative. Sanders fell out of the rankings almost immediately following the win over Wlad and was never a ranked contender again. His career was essentially over after 2004 so a rematch wasn't on the table.
We'll agree to disagree on Purrity, I view it like Holyfield's losses to Toney and Donald. Losses only matter if they are a decent version of the fighter and I wouldn't classify that version of Wlad as anywhere close to his peak self. If he lost to Purrity in 2006/2007 that would be a totally different issue and would be enough to make a big difference vis a vis Lewis. As I pointed out earlier, a number of guys have bad non-prime losses when they were still relatively capable that are generally dismissed in terms of legacy. If you are going to hold Purrity against Wlad, does Duran get penalized for Pat Lawlor, Holyfield for Donald, Pacquiao for Sangsurat, etc. Juan Manuel Marquez lost to a guy I've never even heard of in his pro debut.
As far as Purritry goes, I'd favor him over Lewis in 1989 or 1990 and give Lewis the edge from the Gary Mason fight onwards. But there absolutely are versions of Lewis that would lose to Purrity. You don't think Lewis from his pro debut would lose to Purrity?
it is a big negative that Klitschko lst to Ross Purrity. It's not remotely like Holyfield losing to guys when he was way past it.
He had plenty of experience to be beat a journeyman.
the loss to Corrie Sanders was embarrassing as well. He was not a contender when Klitschko got crushed by him.
Tyson beat Thomas, Tubbs, Bruno, Riddock, Tucker etc.
Lewis beat Bruno, Ruddock, Tua etc.
Holyfield beat Dokes, Thomas, Bowe, Tyson etc.
It's Klitschko, so in Cojimar's world, somehow it doesn't count.
Holyfield did win a lot of fight convincingly. He stopped the first 7 guys he fought as a heavyweight. This included Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas. Holyfield's competition has been light years better than Usyk's.
Usyk has stopped two guys in the last five years. Two. Joshua was competitive with him twice and Fury was once.
Bowe was badly out of shape against Holyfield? That was a great fight. There has not been a heavyweight as good as that in all of the years since then. and Cojimar is trying to use this as evidence against Holyfield!!!
Holyfield's pre-Tyson competition at heavyweight seems pretty unexceptional and certainly no better than Usyk's. Joshua was hardly competitive in either fight with Usyk winning handily. Holyfield-Mercer was more competitive than either AJ fight. Wins over Joshua and Fury (competitive or otherwise) seem nowhere near as bad as losing to Michael Moorer and losing a trilogy to Bowe. Usyk was also 37 against Fury, I don't recall Holyfield looking so hot at 37 vs Ruiz.
Many people had Holyfield losing 4 rounds to a 42 year old Holmes but I'm supposed to believe a prime AJ couldn't come close to winning that many rounds?
Holyfield win pre-Tyson were unexceptional.
Mercer (when he was on) was a very good fighter. Holyfield-Mercer was better than any fight Klitschko ever had.
Losing a trilogy to Riddock Bowe is nowhere near ad as barely beat Fury and Joshua? Wow. I mean wow.
guessing you have never seen the Bowe-Holyfield fights.
You don't know anything about the sport. You really don't.
It's Klitschko, so in Cojimar's world, somehow it doesn't count.
Holyfield did win a lot of fight convincingly. He stopped the first 7 guys he fought as a heavyweight. This included Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas. Holyfield's competition has been light years better than Usyk's.
Usyk has stopped two guys in the last five years. Two. Joshua was competitive with him twice and Fury was once.
Bowe was badly out of shape against Holyfield? That was a great fight. There has not been a heavyweight as good as that in all of the years since then. and Cojimar is trying to use this as evidence against Holyfield!!!
Holyfield's pre-Tyson competition at heavyweight seems pretty unexceptional and certainly no better than Usyk's. Joshua was hardly competitive in either fight with Usyk winning handily. Holyfield-Mercer was more competitive than either AJ fight. Wins over Joshua and Fury (competitive or otherwise) seem nowhere near as bad as losing to Michael Moorer and losing a trilogy to Bowe. Usyk was also 37 against Fury, I don't recall Holyfield looking so hot at 37 vs Ruiz.
Many people had Holyfield losing 4 rounds to a 42 year old Holmes but I'm supposed to believe a prime AJ couldn't come close to winning that many rounds?
Holyfield win pre-Tyson were unexceptional.
Mercer (when he was on) was a very good fighter. Holyfield-Mercer was better than any fight Klitschko ever had.
Losing a trilogy to Riddock Bowe is nowhere near ad as barely beat Fury and Joshua? Wow. I mean wow.
guessing you have never seen the Bowe-Holyfield fights.
You don't know anything about the sport. You really don't.
Usyk was 37 vs Fury. At that age Holyfield barely scraped past John Ruiz. You really think it's fair to compare that version of Usyk to a prime Holyfield? I thought this was a best vs best comparison.
Most people had him beating Joshua by a wide margin in both fights 8-4 in fight 1 and 9-3 in fight two. How does that compute with barely winning?
You can't just go by age. You also have to factor in how much punishment a fighter has taken. Did you seriously not know this?
Usyk has just 22 fights. In other words, Usyk still has not fought as many fights as Klitschko already he lost to Purrity. He has taken very little punishment. Most people thought the Joshua fights were competitive. Not interested in how you scored them.
Holyfield had a ton of mileage on him by the time he fought Ruiz. He had been in a lot of tough fights against good competition.
Lets see how Usyk looks when has 40 fights. What year will that be?
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2024, 18:41
Wlad's losses are a much bigger negative if he's being compared to someone without bad losses of their own (like Rocky Marciano). Against Lewis they are counterbalanced by Lewis's own losses.
Difference is, Lewis avenged both of his losses. Wlad didn't avenge any of his. PLUS Wlad was stopped by Ross Purrity, that's Rossssss..... Purrity.
Difference is, Lewis avenged both of his losses. Wlad didn't avenge any of his. PLUS Wlad was stopped by Ross Purrity, that's Rossssss..... Purrity.
I don't see that as a big negative.
World class trolling.
Whether someone rematches you is beyond your control. If Rahman and McCall refused to rematch Lewis why should Lewis be penalized for something he can't control? Purrity and Fury both refused to rematch Wlad and immediately after losing to Sanders Wlad lost to Brewtster and then Sanders retired. Wlad was trying to rebuild for years following the Sanders disaster and by the time he regained his form Sanders had fallen out of the rankings.
As I've pointed out tons of fighters have terrible non-prime losses that are ignored in terms of legacy. So this fixation on the Purrity fight doesn't make a lot of sense. Pacquiao has two awful kayo losses to obscure fighters early in his career and there's no similar obsession among fans.
Last edited by Cojimar 1946 on 25 Nov 2024, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.
Whether someone rematches you is beyond your control.
Yeah, but we're talking about the losses themselves. Ross Purrity.
Were it prime it would be a problem but I wasn't so I would expect people to treat it like say
Pacquaio's losses to Torrecampo and Sangsurat
Marquez's loss to Javier Duran
Holyfield's losses to Toney and Donald
Duran's loss to Pat Lawlor
None of which are viewed as tarnishing the legacy of the fighters in question.
