HomicideHenry wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 11:33
All I know is every time people get upset with Fury he keeps on winning so my view on it is if he defeats the Ukrainian and then he faces Ruiz or Joyce, and fights Joshua... there would always still be some sort of criticism because he didn't fight Daniel Dubois or some other idiot floating about.
I don't know why people think that Anthony Joshua really was more of a reliable heavyweight at least in terms of facing such great challenges because I don't think there's anyone out there who honestly thinks that Tyson Fury wouldn't have beaten the very same guys that Anthony Joshua did.
And for my money Tyson Fury beating Deontay Wilder three times basically does trump anything that Joshua has done because Wilder was one of the legitimate top three heavyweights in the world. It wasn't like Wilder was some man who magically gets rated in the top 15 or top 10 or top 5 who didn't deserve that spot, but was instead WBC champion with several title defenses.
The closest thing Anthony Joshua had to that was Joseph Parker the WBO champion and I don't think there's anyone who thinks Joseph Parker is better than Deontay Wilder. So when you really think about it Fury does have the superior resume over Anthony Joshua even if Anthony Joshua defended his title more than Tyson Fury did.
What made Wilder so legit?
What made him legit was that he did not lose his title in his maiden defense, like so many alphabet champions tend to do. He made 10 title defenses from 2015-2019, so he was certainly more hyperactive than most champions regardless of weight class. He rarely looked vulnerable while as champion. He was undefeated. And of course he was the only heavyweight out there that ever made Tyson Fury look vulnerable.
One can make an argument that his two knockout wins over Luis Ortiz was just as good or better than the vast majority of title defenses that Anthony Joshua ever had. Besides the public perception on Wilder is that he is a cut above Andy Ruiz for sure considering most people are favoring him to win if he ever was to fight Andy Ruiz, the same man who knocked out Anthony Joshua and whom Joshua ran away from most of the time in the rematch.
Throw in the perception that Wilder is one of the hardest punchers in boxing history other than George Foreman or Earnie Shavers, he certainly was and still is legit even if he is not a skillful heavyweight.
You've also listed "public perception" as a reason why Wilder is better than Ruiz, the forum has been split. Bit of an odd argument to attempt to make. He also beat bums for 8 defences so that argument doesn't support him at all. Hardest puncher ever? Another "fact" that cannot be proven that you're just throwing around and ultimately means nothing because this is boxing, not a punching machine.
You have gone so far into Fury's rabbit hole that you cannot help but defend his former rivals to prop him up against other rivals. It's honestly insane for a grown man to not see.
What made him legit was that he did not lose his title in his maiden defense, like so many alphabet champions tend to do. He made 10 title defenses from 2015-2019, so he was certainly more hyperactive than most champions regardless of weight class. He rarely looked vulnerable while as champion. He was undefeated. And of course he was the only heavyweight out there that ever made Tyson Fury look vulnerable.
One can make an argument that his two knockout wins over Luis Ortiz was just as good or better than the vast majority of title defenses that Anthony Joshua ever had. Besides the public perception on Wilder is that he is a cut above Andy Ruiz for sure considering most people are favoring him to win if he ever was to fight Andy Ruiz, the same man who knocked out Anthony Joshua and whom Joshua ran away from most of the time in the rematch.
Throw in the perception that Wilder is one of the hardest punchers in boxing history other than George Foreman or Earnie Shavers, he certainly was and still is legit even if he is not a skillful heavyweight.
You've also listed "public perception" as a reason why Wilder is better than Ruiz, the forum has been split. Bit of an odd argument to attempt to make. He also beat bums for 8 defences so that argument doesn't support him at all. Hardest puncher ever? Another "fact" that cannot be proven that you're just throwing around and ultimately means nothing because this is boxing, not a punching machine.
You have gone so far into Fury's rabbit hole that you cannot help but defend his former rivals to prop him up against other rivals. It's honestly insane for a grown man to not see.
I'm just an old time boxing fan that believes if you are the lineal champion you are the person to beat and so far nobody has done it so therefore Tyson Fury is head and shoulders above the rest until he is beaten it's that simple.
And again Wilder was in the top three. Fury fought him three times. Joshua never fought him once and Joshua never fought Fury either. Most of the men that Joshua fought were somewhere in the top 10 or 15 overall. That alone puts Wilder ahead of Joshua because at least he mixed it up with the lineal champion and almost succeeded in the first fight.
That alone trump's anything that Joshua ever did because let's be honest on the basis of Chazz Witherspoon and Dereck Chisora, Oleksandr Usyk should not have been rated number one by any organization but he was made the WBO mandatory. So once again Joshua got beat by a man who was not deserving truly of a title shot (just like Andy Ruiz) when one really thinks about it. A former cruiserweight champion with two unimpressive performances at heavyweight.
And of course Joshua lost the rematch as well. The best opponents of Joshua's career were losses. Again the only high point he had other than nearly losing to an older and slower Vladimir Klitschko was him squeaking out a boring decision over Joseph Parker who is not as good as Wilder.
People can get pissed all they want to but ultimately Tyson Fury does have the better resume than Anthony Joshua. People's emotions are too deeply involved in this because they wanted Anthony Joshua to be "the man," because he fit their expectation of what a champion was supposed to look like and how a champion was supposed to act and how a champion was supposed to fight. He just didn't live up to the hype.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 12:46
by joshj909
HomicideHenry wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 12:42
And again Wilder was in the top three. Fury fought him three times. Joshua never fought him once and Joshua never fought Fury either. Most of the men that Joshua fought were somewhere in the top 10 or 15 overall. That alone puts Wilder ahead of Joshua because at least he mixed it up with the lineal champion and almost succeeded in the first fight.
That alone trump's anything that Joshua ever did because let's be honest on the basis of Chazz Witherspoon and Dereck Chisora, Oleksandr Usyk should not have been rated number one by any organization but he was made the WBO mandatory. So once again Joshua got beat by a man who was not deserving truly of a title shot (just like Andy Ruiz) when one really thinks about it. A former cruiserweight champion with two unimpressive performances at heavyweight.
And of course Joshua lost the rematch as well. The best opponents of Joshua's career were losses. Again the only high point he had other than nearly losing to an older and slower Vladimir Klitschko was him squeaking out a boring decision over Joseph Parker who is not as good as Wilder.
These three paragraphs are so comical that I am no longer sure if you're serious
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 12:56
by HomicideHenry
Let's put it this way if Wilder and Joshua were to fight tomorrow I would bet my car that Wilder would knock out Anthony Joshua with little problems. So yes, I'm serious.
Anthony Joshua is a better boxer in the technical sense than Deontay Wilder but he's just not the better fighter. I think that is something a lot of people can't wrap their minds around that somebody could possibly lose to somebody with far less skills.
And I don't think there is anybody on the Forum who could make a solid case anymore because the cat is out of the bag when it comes to Anthony Joshua that he could ever beat Tyson Fury.
But you can look it up all over YouTube of various boxing experts like Johnny Nelson that most don't believe that Anthony Joshua actually has a better resume than Tyson Fury. He had more title defenses but it ultimately was against nobody special because the best win he had was against Joseph Parker who Tyson Fury uses as a sparring partner on a regular basis. How can you really argue with a straight face that anything Joshua did could equate to him being better than Fury? He's lost. Fury hasn't.
Wilder fighting the lineal champion who is the consensus heavyweight champion of the world three times in one of the greatest trilogies in the sports history trump's anything that Joshua has done because Joshua never fought the best. Every single opponent he has ever faced was basically second best, long in the tooth, or were limited.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 12:59
by gilgamesh
For the record I believe Wilder would KO AJ if they fought next also.
That being said, AJ's record is leaps and bounds better than Wilder's.
Wilder doesn't have the embarrassing loss to Ruiz (yet, not saying Ruiz would beat Wilder, but it's certainly possible to me), but AJ also has about 3 or 4 wins bigger or on par with Wilder's biggest.
From my perspective that is essentially it because everybody else that they fought were basically bums or older opponents who already lost. And I would argue that Wilder just edges it out.
Pulev? Really? Vladimir Klitschko bombed him out in five rounds and it took Joshua 9 against an older version who hadn't fought anybody in nearly 3 years. Povetkin? Really? Wasn't he like 40 years old and also got his butt whipped by Vladimir Klitschko some years before that?
I mean if all you want to go by his names then sure Joshua has more names but they weren't really wins of any real substance because they were already on the downside. I think it probably goes without saying that Wilder would have beat those guys too.
From my perspective that is essentially it because everybody else that they fought were basically bums or older opponents who already lost. And I would argue that Wilder just edges it out.
Pulev? Really? Vladimir Klitschko bombed him out in five rounds and it took Joshua 9 against an older version who hadn't fought anybody in nearly 3 years. Povetkin? Really? Wasn't he like 40 years old and also got his butt whipped by Vladimir Klitschko some years before that?
I mean if all you want to go by his names then sure Joshua has more names but they weren't really wins of any real substance because they were already on the downside. I think it probably goes without saying that Wilder would have beat those guys too.
No that's not basically it. Pulev, Povetkin, Dillian Whyte, Carlos Takam.
All Top rated dudes.
They both got Breazeale to their credit. AJ's got Ruiz, but I don't think that's even considered a big win if he didn't lose to him first. But that's the way it is sometimes.
Anyway, yeah my point is AJ's record is deeper, and his biggest win Klitschko is bigger than Wilder's biggest win.
So to me. Wilder actually NEEDS to fight AJ. So we can put the issue to rest. Because right now...from a historical perspective (like those threads we been doing). I think AJ edges him.
From my perspective that is essentially it because everybody else that they fought were basically bums or older opponents who already lost. And I would argue that Wilder just edges it out.
Pulev? Really? Vladimir Klitschko bombed him out in five rounds and it took Joshua 9 against an older version who hadn't fought anybody in nearly 3 years. Povetkin? Really? Wasn't he like 40 years old and also got his butt whipped by Vladimir Klitschko some years before that?
I mean if all you want to go by his names then sure Joshua has more names but they weren't really wins of any real substance because they were already on the downside. I think it probably goes without saying that Wilder would have beat those guys too.
No that's not basically it. Pulev, Povetkin, Dillian Whyte, Carlos Takam.
All Top rated dudes.
They both got Breazeale to their credit. AJ's got Ruiz, but I don't think that's even considered a big win if he didn't lose to him first. But that's the way it is sometimes.
Anyway, yeah my point is AJ's record is deeper, and his biggest win Klitschko is bigger than Wilder's biggest win.
So to me. Wilder actually NEEDS to fight AJ. So we can put the issue to rest. Because right now...from a historical perspective (like those threads we been doing). I think AJ edges him.
Context is everything. When Joshua fought Whyte, they were not world beaters they were still at that British and European level. And as I mentioned before Pulev and Povetkin were both long in the tooth and already had losses. So really the entire hinge of your argument rests upon Takam, who I don't think anyone really rated all that highly. He wasn't much different than some of the guys Wilder blew through.
And again Joshua nearly lost to an older version of Vladimir Klitschko. Wilder holding Tyson Fury to a draw is a bit more impressive considering Tyson Fury had already defeated a younger version of Vladimir Klitschko than Joshua did. Wilder engaging in a trilogy with Fury, where he was dangerous in two of the three encounters, is a bit more impressive.
I'm not saying he blows away Joshua's resume, but I do think he beats it out by a smidgen. Anyways, enough of the hypotheticals and debates here's the latest news from Tyson Fury's promoter...
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 13:43
by gilgamesh
Yeah. No sense in arguing the legacy of Wilder and Joshua. Their stories are still being written.
As are Fury and Usyk's.
Usyk already has gone down and will go down as one of the very top all time Cruiserweights. His overall legacy and Heavyweight legacy is still being written.
Tyson Fury can potentially be a Top 10 all time Heavyweight Champion. You never can tell. One day he'll tell you he's retiring after his next fight. One day he'll tell you he'll fight until he's 40
This is a definitely a key fight in this era though. I'd love to see Fury, Usyk, Wilder and AJ all mix it up in a 4 way Round Robin before it's all over.
I actually wouldn't be shocked to see some stunning results if that were the case. Like maybe Usyk outboxes Fury, but gets caught and KO'd by Wilder.
Stranger things have happened.
But yeah, I think this era of Heavyweights will definitely be incomplete if we don't at least get AJ vs Wilder, Fury vs Usyk and Fury vs AJ.
Especially if AJ manages to beat Wilder. If Wilder KO's him. I think that pretty much squashes the need for that last one.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 13:54
by handsofstone
Seem Simon Jordan on talksport sh1tting on Joshua's resume last week and said something along the lines of "fighting guys like Breazeale and Molina" deliberately picking the 2 worst guys on AJ's record, one of which was an unbeaten Olympian who was also mandatory, Breazeale also took an absolute trimming the whole fight
The other Molina was a former World title challenger who gave Wilder his toughest test so far and had him doing the stanky dance, Joshua swept him aside in 3
Both probably top 5 in Wilder's resume, nothing against Wilder the boxer I love watching him fight but he's never showed the desire to face the best the way Joshua has
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 14:21
by joshj909
HomicideHenry wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 13:36
Context is everything. When Joshua fought Whyte, they were not world beaters they were still at that British and European level. And as I mentioned before Pulev and Povetkin were both long in the tooth and already had losses. So really the entire hinge of your argument rests upon Takam, who I don't think anyone really rated all that highly. He wasn't much different than some of the guys Wilder blew through.
And again Joshua nearly lost to an older version of Vladimir Klitschko. Wilder holding Tyson Fury to a draw is a bit more impressive considering Tyson Fury had already defeated a younger version of Vladimir Klitschko than Joshua did. Wilder engaging in a trilogy with Fury, where he was dangerous in two of the three encounters, is a bit more impressive.
I'm not saying he blows away Joshua's resume, but I do think he beats it out by a smidgen. Anyways, enough of the hypotheticals and debates here's the latest news from Tyson Fury's promoter...
Who was past it?
Povetkin Vs Joshua = 39
Pulev Vs Joshua = 39
Klitschko Vs Joshua = 41
Wilder Vs Ortiz 1 = 39 but believed to be older.
Wilder Vs Ortiz 2 = 41 but believed to be older.
A 39 year old and 41 year old Ortiz nearly beat Wilder which judging by your standards mean he is awful.
To add, Ortiz has lost to the only top 20 opponents he has ever faced.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 15:09
by BigDoofus
handsofstone wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 13:54
nothing against Wilder the boxer I love watching him fight but he's never showed the desire to face the best the way Joshua has
handsofstone wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 13:54
nothing against Wilder the boxer I love watching him fight but he's never showed the desire to face the best the way Joshua has
"the best" = Fury.
One fighter and I'd imagine he thought he was getting a finished Fury after the Pianeta fight
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 15:33
by Nightmare Roy
handsofstone wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 13:54
Seem Simon Jordan on talksport sh1tting on Joshua's resume last week and said something along the lines of "fighting guys like Breazeale and Molina" deliberately picking the 2 worst guys on AJ's record, one of which was an unbeaten Olympian who was also mandatory, Breazeale also took an absolute trimming the whole fight
The other Molina was a former World title challenger who gave Wilder his toughest test so far and had him doing the stanky dance, Joshua swept him aside in 3
Both probably top 5 in Wilder's resume, nothing against Wilder the boxer I love watching him fight but he's never showed the desire to face the best the way Joshua has
Jordan has an agenda, Hearn won't go on his show, where as Frank goes on often.
handsofstone wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 13:54
Seem Simon Jordan on talksport sh1tting on Joshua's resume last week and said something along the lines of "fighting guys like Breazeale and Molina" deliberately picking the 2 worst guys on AJ's record, one of which was an unbeaten Olympian who was also mandatory, Breazeale also took an absolute trimming the whole fight
The other Molina was a former World title challenger who gave Wilder his toughest test so far and had him doing the stanky dance, Joshua swept him aside in 3
Both probably top 5 in Wilder's resume, nothing against Wilder the boxer I love watching him fight but he's never showed the desire to face the best the way Joshua has
Jordan has an agenda, Hearn won't go on his show, where as Frank goes on often.
I really like Jordan - he knows his sport and is very knowledgeable on boxing.
He also asks all his guests tough questions - including Frank.
Eddie won't go on as he won't like to be asked tough questions - he much prefers speaking to arse lickers like Kugan who know their place.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 15:52
by handsofstone
Bit of a myth about Eddie not liking tough questions, I doubt any promoter likes getting asked tough questions but Eddie's the most transparent promoter in boxing, Warren and Shalom both been known to tell interviewers not to mention certain topics, whether Eddie's talking bollocks or what he's there to be interogated, Tebbutt doesn't miss and Hearn regularly talks to him
I like Simon Jordan btw, don't always agree but more often than not he's on the money and he says what he means
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 17:31
by Teddy's Toupee
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 20 Jan 2023, 22:34
by HomicideHenry
Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 17:31
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
Nope the shift starts in less than an hour and a half sorry to disappoint.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 21 Jan 2023, 02:42
by Grilling Machine
Fury and AJ have both beaten Klitschko, and provisionally I rate Fury's wins over Wilder above AJ's over Ruiz. But that's the keyword: provisional.
Most of us rated Wilder in the top 3 until he lost, but there's no clear consensus on him now. Likewise we generally rated Ruiz around 10 until he beat AJ, then he was definitely top 5, and now he's 10ish again!
Give us a Super Six with Usyk, Fury, AJ, Joyce, Wilder and Ruiz and we'd find it so much easier to rate them all. Whoever didn't retire afterwards could fight the up-and-comers. But until then it's as much about who they haven't fought as have.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 21 Jan 2023, 03:38
by DrDuke
Grilling Machine wrote: ↑21 Jan 2023, 02:42
Give us a Super Six with Usyk, Fury, AJ, Joyce, Wilder and Ruiz and we'd find it so much easier to rate them all. Whoever didn't retire afterwards could fight the up-and-comers. But until then it's as much about who they haven't fought as have.
Super Six with best heavies today? Your dreams are too sweet. Nowadays it's only possible to have Super Sex featuring all the promotions and brains of the fans.
Re: Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk - Spring 2023
Posted: 21 Jan 2023, 06:14
by tonyevs
Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 17:31
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
*Can someone please PM him and politely explain nobody even bothers reading anything longer than a 2 paragraph response.
Who has actually got time to read his long nonsensical posts
Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 17:31
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
*Can someone please PM him and politely explain nobody even bothers reading anything longer than a 2 paragraph response.
Who has actually got time to read his long nonsensical posts
Considering most of you are older than I am (37) you have no excuse not to read. It's the younger generation who can't hold an attention span longer than 30 seconds.
His religion didn't prevent him fighting for the title in the States just before Easter v Michael Hunter, or just after Easter for a title v Andrei Kniazev.
Those were cruiserweight fights. Fasting and a strict diet would have helped him make weight.
He's now (hopefully) going in against one of the biggest heavyweights in history, he doesn't need to be diminished in any way.
I don't think that's how religious fasting works
Orthodox give up animal products for 40 days, basically going vegan.
Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 17:31
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
*Can someone please PM him and politely explain nobody even bothers reading anything longer than a 2 paragraph response.
Who has actually got time to read his long nonsensical posts
Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑20 Jan 2023, 17:31
Henry's posting a lot. He must have lost his security guard job.
*Can someone please PM him and politely explain nobody even bothers reading anything longer than a 2 paragraph response.
Who has actually got time to read his long nonsensical posts
Considering most of you are older than I am (37) you have no excuse not to read. It's the younger generation who can't hold an attention span longer than 30 seconds.
That's better
Succinct is always the best option when your views/opinions are bordering on the daft .. saves everyone's time
sorry to disappoint.
