BoxRec

lurkyshaka wrote:
Think my confidence comes from my basic belief Kotelnik doesn't have the style to get at Khan and ruffle his feathers to any great degree. This isn't about a lack of respect or underdstanding of what Kotelnik brings to offer. In recent days have rewatched his fights with Maidana, Witter, Rees and M'baye. I see his strengths, but i also see his weaknesses. And for me a patient, technically sound but unexceptional beltholder like Andreas will always be struggling against a quicksilver fighter like Khan, who i believe will be employing a load of movement and fighting smart. If Khan fights like a fool he of course could give Kotelnik a chance, but i don't expect that. I expect he'll win easy and my confidence now will be fully justified.

You've managed to reply to my post without addressing the core point. What makes you so sure that Khan is so vastly improved under Roach? What have you seen to suggest Khan will come out and fight a smart enough fight to cruise past Kotelnik with the ease you suggest? I'll say it again, Khan has not been tested even slightly since the KO loss to Prescott. He's not shown us anything that we didn't already know, ie he is a fast and effective attacking fighter.
It's his defence of that suspect chin and the fact he panics when things don't go his way that needed urgent attention. I find it interesting you base your confidence on Kotelniks weaknesses without seeing any definitive proof that Khan has overcome his own major flaws.
Guys like Limond and Kristjansen ruffled Khan. Limond put him down, Kristjansen was a complete pastry but he still made Khan look panicked and out of sorts at times. Neither have the tools to finish their own dinner, and full credit to Khan for taking control again and getting the job done. But Kotelnik is a much better all round fighter than the likes of Limond and Kristjansen, he's in much better shape than the likes of Gomez and much bigger than all three.
Khan is not Pernell Whittaker or Floyd Mayweather, he wont be able to go 12 rounds and stay completely out of trouble.
To me this is the fight that will pose the questions about how much Khan has improved under Roach. That is why I find it difficult to pick a winner, because we have not seen Khan tested while training with Roach and how he reacts to that is the key to this fight. I just find it a little naive to suggest a proven world champion wont find a way to ruffle a fighter who has never even competed at this level before.

DaveyH wrote:

lurkyshaka wrote:
Think my confidence comes from my basic belief Kotelnik doesn't have the style to get at Khan and ruffle his feathers to any great degree. This isn't about a lack of respect or underdstanding of what Kotelnik brings to offer. In recent days have rewatched his fights with Maidana, Witter, Rees and M'baye. I see his strengths, but i also see his weaknesses. And for me a patient, technically sound but unexceptional beltholder like Andreas will always be struggling against a quicksilver fighter like Khan, who i believe will be employing a load of movement and fighting smart. If Khan fights like a fool he of course could give Kotelnik a chance, but i don't expect that. I expect he'll win easy and my confidence now will be fully justified.

You've managed to reply to my post without addressing the core point. What makes you so sure that Khan is so vastly improved under Roach? What have you seen to suggest Khan will come out and fight a smart enough fight to cruise past Kotelnik with the ease you suggest? I'll say it again, Khan has not been tested even slightly since the KO loss to Prescott. He's not shown us anything that we didn't already know, ie he is a fast and effective attacking fighter.
It's his defence of that suspect chin and the fact he panics when things don't go his way that needed urgent attention. I find it interesting you base your confidence on Kotelniks weaknesses without seeing any definitive proof that Khan has overcome his own major flaws.
Guys like Limond and Kristjansen ruffled Khan. Limond put him down, Kristjansen was a complete pastry but he still made Khan look panicked and out of sorts at times. Neither have the tools to finish their own dinner, and full credit to Khan for taking control again and getting the job done. But Kotelnik is a much better all round fighter than the likes of Limond and Kristjansen, he's in much better shape than the likes of Gomez and much bigger than all three.
Khan is not Pernell Whittaker or Floyd Mayweather, he wont be able to go 12 rounds and stay completely out of trouble.
To me this is the fight that will pose the questions about how much Khan has improved under Roach. That is why I find it difficult to pick a winner, because we have not seen Khan tested while training with Roach and how he reacts to that is the key to this fight. I just find it a little naive to suggest a proven world champion wont find a way to ruffle a fighter who has never even competed at this level before.

What makes me so sure Khan has improved under Roach....well because it wasn't hard to see the area's Khan needed to improve on, and if one of the world best coaches couldn't manage that then he should be shot. Its hardly rocket science. A blind man on a galloping horse could see what was wrong with Khan's boxing. But it took a 1st round shellacking for it to sink in Khan's head. He can't improve his chin, but he can improve how well he keeps it out of harms way and he's with one of the best men to help him do just that. Khan's physical gifts are such that even with a chin as soft as his, he still has the potential to be successful.

Khan is always in some danger such is his lack of punch resistance, and against a guy with one punch fight altering power it'll always be edge of seat stuff. But a guy like Kotelnik is not the guy to expose the chinks in Khan's armour. Predominently a tidy boxer, he'll find himself outsped and outboxed.

Guess we'll see how naive i am when Khan is comfortably beating Andreas in a few days time.

i don't think kan will do a shoeshine stoppege of kotelnik. he won't be able to back the champ up, and kotelnik tucks up pretty well. i think kotelnik needs to tuck and make sure to punch, so khan can't steal rounds and buy a bogus stoppage.

khan, like ortiz, is being chucked in too early. in khan's case, probably to justify the money he's wanting. because of the nature of the business, i don't think khan has actually been in the fights that would prepare him for this. buying a fancy american trainer is one thing, but you can't buy big fight experience.

look what haye did. lost to thompson, then fought guys with good records and who flew in prepared. they weren't all good - lasse johanesson - but knocking out a world class fighter like gurov must have been a huge boost to his career, and surviving a crisis v future world champ fragomeni must have been a tremendous learning experience. khan doesn't have that.

if kotelnik breaks down khan, is he a racist?

no, just a hater.

Barn, you sound like you are fully convinced by the Kotelnik KO now after maybe being unsure earlier.

I for one am confident Kotelnik will do it. At first I thought Khan would be on top in the first half of the fight, boxing at range and darting in and out, before losing the plot. Now, I can even see it ending in the first half. Kotelnik isn't as stationary a target like a blind Barrera was, he has some good subtle movement and, importantly, he is very hard to hit clean. We saw a genuine 140 lb hitters in Maidana and Witter struggle to have an impact on Kotelnik, so there's no chance a light hitting lightweight can make an impression. Meanwhile, Kotelnik, while not the busiest, will be throwing stiff shots and won't be discouraged by Khan's speed. It's all very well Khan ripping off fast combinations, but all he's going to do is tire himself out, and once he realises he can't make an impression he'll revert to Khan Panic Mode 101, and things will start to unravel for him.

Autobarn wrote:
look what haye did. lost to thompson, then fought guys with good records and who flew in prepared. they weren't all good - lasse johanesson - but knocking out a world class fighter like gurov must have been a huge boost to his career, and surviving a crisis v future world champ fragomeni must have been a tremendous learning experience. khan doesn't have that.

Remarkable to think, 10 fights form carl Thompson to undisputed world cruiserweight champion.

Riddick Blowe wrote:no, just a hater.

Barn, you sound like you are fully convinced by the Kotelnik KO now after maybe being unsure earlier.

I for one am confident Kotelnik will do it. At first I thought Khan would be on top in the first half of the fight, boxing at range and darting in and out, before losing the plot. Now, I can even see it ending in the first half. Kotelnik isn't as stationary a target like a blind Barrera was, he has some good subtle movement and, importantly, he is very hard to hit clean. We saw a genuine 140 lb hitters in Maidana and Witter struggle to have an impact on Kotelnik, so there's no chance a light hitting lightweight can make an impression. Meanwhile, Kotelnik, while not the busiest, will be throwing stiff shots and won't be discouraged by Khan's speed. It's all very well Khan ripping off fast combinations, but all he's going to do is tire himself out, and once he realises he can't make an impression he'll revert to Khan Panic Mode 101, and things will start to unravel for him.

one thing about kotelnik - a fighter who has improved a great deal - is his subtlety. if he blocks shots and sets up unflashy couters, will the judges disregard his good work and go for khan's more eye catching stuff?

i recall kotelnik gradually breaking down rees. at least one person on the commentary team - woodhall - made it sound like rees was winning. when in fact he was slowly being taken apart.

for kotelnik's sake, i hope he doesn't start too slowly, i hope he doesn't wait too late to perhaps get khan out of there. andreas has fought away from home enough, to get it right i reckon.

Autobarn wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:no, just a hater.

Barn, you sound like you are fully convinced by the Kotelnik KO now after maybe being unsure earlier.

I for one am confident Kotelnik will do it. At first I thought Khan would be on top in the first half of the fight, boxing at range and darting in and out, before losing the plot. Now, I can even see it ending in the first half. Kotelnik isn't as stationary a target like a blind Barrera was, he has some good subtle movement and, importantly, he is very hard to hit clean. We saw a genuine 140 lb hitters in Maidana and Witter struggle to have an impact on Kotelnik, so there's no chance a light hitting lightweight can make an impression. Meanwhile, Kotelnik, while not the busiest, will be throwing stiff shots and won't be discouraged by Khan's speed. It's all very well Khan ripping off fast combinations, but all he's going to do is tire himself out, and once he realises he can't make an impression he'll revert to Khan Panic Mode 101, and things will start to unravel for him.

one thing about kotelnik - a fighter who has improved a great deal - is his subtlety. if he blocks shots and sets up unflashy couters, will the judges disregard his good work and go for khan's more eye catching stuff?

i recall kotelnik gradually breaking down rees. at least one person on the commentary team - woodhall - made it sound like rees was winning. when in fact he was slowly being taken apart.

for kotelnik's sake, i hope he doesn't start too slowly, i hope he doesn't wait too late to perhaps get khan out of there. andreas has fought away from home enough, to get it right i reckon.

I don't think Kotelnik can win on points, even if he wins the fight clearly.

I watched his fight with Witter recently. I liked the way he throws his punches in combinations and can be very effective with the right hand and the left hook. His defense is very good and we all know about his chin. His handspeed is decent too. The one weakness I see is footwork though and that is where Khan will have a huge advantage but you would expect Kotelnik to figure out a way to neutralize that over the course of the fight.

Kotelnik throws combinations when he comes forward which will be the key here. I expect him to break Khan down and I'm pretty confident that Khan gets beaten here. I will be putting some money on Kotelnik to win the fight.

lurkyshaka wrote: What makes me so sure Khan has improved under Roach....well because it wasn't hard to see the area's Khan needed to improve on, and if one of the world best coaches couldn't manage that then he should be shot. Its hardly rocket science. A blind man on a galloping horse could see what was wrong with Khan's boxing. But it took a 1st round shellacking for it to sink in Khan's head. He can't improve his chin, but he can improve how well he keeps it out of harms way and he's with one of the best men to help him do just that. Khan's physical gifts are such that even with a chin as soft as his, he still has the potential to be successful.

Khan is always in some danger such is his lack of punch resistance, and against a guy with one punch fight altering power it'll always be edge of seat stuff. But a guy like Kotelnik is not the guy to expose the chinks in Khan's armour. Predominently a tidy boxer, he'll find himself outsped and outboxed.

Guess we'll see how naive i am when Khan is comfortably beating Andreas in a few days time.

If you're right then fair play to you, I just want to actually see evidence of the improved Khan before I drone on about how good he is. In theory Khan should have come on in leaps and bounds under Roach, but to me his big weakness is as much his panicking as his chin. If a couple of pitter patter shots from the likes of Kristjansen can make Khan go into headless chicken mode, then Kotelnik should be able to take better advantage. Improved defence, you'd hope so. Winky Wright level of defence in 7 or so months? Unlikely.
Kotelnik will get through eventually, even if it's just a couple of unspectacular looking jabs. It all depends how Khan reacts when it happens.
I hope you're right, Khan is an exciting fighter to watch, love him or hate him he's entertainment.

Hey, well done Chambers and well done Boxrec.

This website - no, indeed, this specific thread no less - has just been mentioned on Sky Sports News by their reporter at the weigh in, Craig Slater, as reflecting the views of the 'hardcore boxing fan'!

Good call Mr Slater!

Kotelnik is going to win, Khan may start well but sooner or later Kotelnik will land and then Khan will fall apart. Khan may well have improved very significantly under Roach, but he cannot get through 12 rounds against by far his biggest and best opponent without getting hit. This fight reminds me a lot of when Bruno fought Witherspoon, A lot of Top Journalists/ex world champs predicting Bruno/Khan but the smart picks are on Witherspoon/Kotelnik.

Kotelnik to win between rounds 6 and 9.

I cant see Khan bothering Kotelnik that much. Also, I cant see him taking Kotelniks shots for more than 7/8 rounds. Khan will tire IMHO.

Khan to get Kotelnik out of there in five rounds. I feel Kotelnik's slow work-rate will lose him most, if not all, of the early rounds. It will pusj the referee into stopping it after Khan catches Kotelnik with ten or so unanswered punches. Even if he takes most of them on the muffs. Although, if it's stopped correctly then I will give Khan massive kudos.

Kotelnik KO. Although Kotelnik is not reknowned for having heavy hands I just think Khan's punch resistance is that poor. Feather fisted Limond, a shot Gomez, even Prescott's jab before the devastating KO turned Khan's legs to jelly. Kotelnik has proven durability and enough technical ability to be able to land on Khan several times during the fight and stop Khan.

Khan by UD or late stoppage. Khan has been put in the right spot to win a title.
Khan lost to Prescott was abbereration IMO, Kotelnik definitely can win, but KO
Khan I can't see. I can see Khan being hurt, but Kotelnik isn't a finisher by any stretch
and Kotelink has to lost or drawer to anyone that has any boxing ability. Khan is maybe
the best boxer Kotelnik has faced (debatable with Witter). I think an old Barrera would have
gave Kotelnik a fight based on his lack of power. I expect a lot of people to eat there
words of 'Kotelnik by KO'. I doubt if he can do it. But I will eat my humble pie if Kotelnik
KO him, but I doubt that I will.

Bumped as this makes some interesting reading...hope that some of those only to eager to stick the boot into Khan can now step forward to give this kid some credit.

Props to ya mate, you called it perfectly.
Think you need to lay off the whole "Khan basher" stuff though, boxing fans are allowed to express opinions whether they be positive or negative about a fighters' style or strengths or weaknesses.
For me, Khan had to prove he could take the shots, stay calm and keep to his game plan. He did that perfectly last night and did himself and Roach credit. I don't think wanting to see him do this against a decent opponent makes anyone a Khan hater, every boxer should do his talking in the ring.

lurkyshaka wrote:Bumped as this makes some interesting reading...hope that some of those only to eager to stick the boot into Khan can now step forward to give this kid some credit.

Got forbid you ever manage to predict a 4/1 winner, I don't think the forum could take the self gloating.

Khan boxed well throughout the fight. Kotelnik was disappointing but he did as he always does. Khan was just getting off first every time and Kotelnik wasn't good enough to get his own shots off first. I liked the way he fought in the last 2 rounds though. I thought he would have done that from about the 5th onwards but I was left waiting.

Khan beat him more convincingly than anyone has and deserves credit for that. Hatton will be next for Khan and that's a very winnable fight for him.

DaveyH wrote:Props to ya mate, you called it perfectly.
Think you need to lay off the whole "Khan basher" stuff though, boxing fans are allowed to express opinions whether they be positive or negative about a fighters' style or strengths or weaknesses.
For me, Khan had to prove he could take the shots, stay calm and keep to his game plan. He did that perfectly last night and did himself and Roach credit. I don't think wanting to see him do this against a decent opponent makes anyone a Khan hater, every boxer should do his talking in the ring.

I'd never call fans like yourself a hater or basher. I understand constructive criticism. My comments are directed at the section of fans who 'want' to see Khan fail for some reason.

lurkyshaka wrote:

DaveyH wrote:Props to ya mate, you called it perfectly.
Think you need to lay off the whole "Khan basher" stuff though, boxing fans are allowed to express opinions whether they be positive or negative about a fighters' style or strengths or weaknesses.
For me, Khan had to prove he could take the shots, stay calm and keep to his game plan. He did that perfectly last night and did himself and Roach credit. I don't think wanting to see him do this against a decent opponent makes anyone a Khan hater, every boxer should do his talking in the ring.

I'd never call fans like yourself a hater or basher. I understand constructive criticism. My comments are directed at the section of fans who 'want' to see Khan fail for some reason.

The way sky hypes Khan up creates people wanting to see him beaten. Listen to the shite cheerleading from adam smith last night. shocking stuff and it made me actually want kotelnik to KO him. It's not Khans fault though, but jesus christ its annoying

Hagler2002 wrote:

lurkyshaka wrote:Bumped as this makes some interesting reading...hope that some of those only to eager to stick the boot into Khan can now step forward to give this kid some credit.

Got forbid you ever manage to predict a 4/1 winner, I don't think the forum could take the self gloating.

I never said Khan wasn't a favourite, thats why i was surprised at the strength of feeling against that view from some folk.

lirva wrote:

lurkyshaka wrote:

DaveyH wrote:Props to ya mate, you called it perfectly.
Think you need to lay off the whole "Khan basher" stuff though, boxing fans are allowed to express opinions whether they be positive or negative about a fighters' style or strengths or weaknesses.
For me, Khan had to prove he could take the shots, stay calm and keep to his game plan. He did that perfectly last night and did himself and Roach credit. I don't think wanting to see him do this against a decent opponent makes anyone a Khan hater, every boxer should do his talking in the ring.

I'd never call fans like yourself a hater or basher. I understand constructive criticism. My comments are directed at the section of fans who 'want' to see Khan fail for some reason.

The way sky hypes Khan up creates people wanting to see him beaten. Listen to the shite cheerleading from adam smith last night. shocking stuff and it made me actually want kotelnik to KO him. It's not Khans fault though, but jesus christ its annoying

I can understand that, but basically ignore the cheerleaders like Smith is the only approach to take.

When Khan himself is interviewed he comes across well and although confident isn't boastful or annoying. I want to see him do well, but i realise he'll always be in danger because he is undoubtedly chinny. I'm not particularly a fan, but with Calzaghe retiring and Hatton losing its good to see a British boxer get a decent win.