Thad Spencer 'Uncrowned Heavyweight Champion'

[klompton]

You are right. Spencer was such a small blip on the ratings radar in 1963 that I completely missed him. It still doesnt detract from the overall point I was making which is that you totally inflated his standing, and did so knowingly. This is your exact quote: ""Everybody regarded Thad Spencer as one of the Top 10 Contenders between mid/late-1963 and early-1968." and it is patently false. Not only did the vast majority of people NOT consider Spencer top ten material for most of the three years we are discussing (1963, 64, and 65) but neither did the WBA whose brief ranking of Spencer at #10 in 1963 was a joke. As for the Gordie Gladson article, your right, he didnt know what he was talking about in 1963 because Ali was in fact ready for Liston and Spencer never amounted to a level of ability on par the Sonny. So yes, I appreciate you admitting that Gladson didnt know what the hell he was talking about, Im glad we agree.

[sweetsci]

Spencer entered Ring Magazine's ratings during the summer of 1965, hovering around #7 for several months before rising to #3 in the early summer of 1966. He rose to #2 in the fall, staying in that region for several months. He slipped a few notches in the summer of 1967 before climbing back to #2 in the fall and winter of 1967/68. By the spring of 1968 he started slipping again to the #6 - #8 range before falling out for good in October 1968.

[klompton]

Correct, he reappeared in the ratings in the summer of 1965 based on his win over Billy Daniels in March of that year.

[Rover]

Maybe you should change the title.

[klompton]

Of course the Ring and the WBA had different ratings. Boxing Illustrated did as well and guess what, neither the Ring or Boxing Illustrated ranked Spencer off his pointless win in 1963.

Wait wait wait. First you try to over-inflate his status by saying everyone rated him in the top from 1963 to 1968 (not true) then you say dont get caught up in the ratings (I never do unless someone tries to use bad ratings, or falsify them completely to suit their argument) because poor Thad lost to Leslie who in your estimation was no shame to lose to even though he was a light heavy (a light heavy who actually made 159 6 months prior to fighting Spencer). You just lay the foundation of that argument on a sandy beach. The fact is that the WBA jumped the gun rating Thad at #10 off a pointless win. They realized their mistake when he lost to a light heavy who had lost two of his last three fights and weighed in at 159 for one of them.

[Giancarlo]

Crikey, Benito is getting battered from pillar to post.

And the dimwit thinks he's winning!

[sweetsci]

FWIW, as I pointed out above, Spencer WAS in Ring's top ten from the summer of 1965 until the fall of 1968. While "uncrowned champion" is probably a bit much, he was a top seven heavyweight for over three years. For a few months Ring thought him third best heavyweight in the world, behind Ali and Terrell, and later behind only Ali (who was inactive) and Frazier. If things had been different in boxing politics we could've seen Frazier vs. Spencer for the vacant title.

[Rover]

FWIW, as I pointed out above, Spencer WAS in Ring's top ten from the summer of 1965 until the fall of 1968. While "uncrowned champion" is probably a bit much, he was a top seven heavyweight for over three years. For a few months Ring thought him third best heavyweight in the world, behind Ali and Terrell, and later behind only Ali (who was inactive) and Frazier. If things had been different in boxing politics we could've seen Frazier vs. Spencer for the vacant title.

I think that'd have been a fun fight.

[klompton]

Well thats a whole lot better Spencer just lost to a guy he outweighed by ONLY 30 pounds, not 40 LOL. Even then Id have to see it from an actual reputable source before I believed it. I'll be damned if I take your word for it. Yeah I know all about Leslie. He was a world beater. Im sure had Frazier, Ali, and Foreman met him they would have all lost too and been proud of it After all, like I pointed out, Leslie had lost two of his last three fights before facing Spencer, both to light heavyweights. His only victory was against the clown fighter Norbert Grupe. Thad has nothing to be ashamed of

[klompton]

And now we see that Ali was not ducking Spencer. That in fact he had the intention to face him but circumstances outside of his control prevented it.

Is it safe to say now that your entire thesis in boosting Spencer far beyond his accomplishments and capabilities was pointless?

[klompton]

That's your interpretation of events based on your personal bias. I dont think any impartial observer would reach your conclusions. A good question, and one I really dont care to pursue myself, is: Was Thad Spencer ever Ali's #1 contender and if so, for how long and when? Because quite frankly Ali is not obliged to fight anyone other than his #1 more than once a year. If he'd done that in March, for example, and Thad suddenly popped up as #1 in the ratings in April, and then disappeared in August, dont blame Ali for Thad's inconsistencies (which even he acknowledged). Most people are pretty satisfied if the heavyweight champion makes regular title defenses against his #1 and then picks gimmes from out of the top 10. Ali did this more frequently than any champ since Louis. Whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, Ali was picking from the pool of almost universally accepted top contenders. So what if Spencer fell through the cracks. The guy was as hot and cold as it gets and only shined for a very brief moment in boxing history. Guys like that can hardly claim to be ducked or uncrowned champions.

[klompton]

And then poor Thad was thoroughly dismantled, dominated, and stopped by quarry... who ali stopped in three without a warmup in 3+ yrs... sad how life works isnt it.

[klompton]

Here is an interesting contrast which illustrates why I dont have a whole lot of sympathy for Thad Spencer:

Thad Spencer and Joe Frazier were seperated by less than year in age. Both became real, legitimate contenders at about the same time. Both saw Ali as the ultimate prize to prove themselves against. When Ali was exiled Frazier was the top ranked contender and boycotted the elimination that Thad Spencer took part in. Both now had a clear, and easier path to the championship. The implication by Spencer apologists is that once he lost the opportunity to face Ali he went into a tailspin and was never the same. I dont personally think its that complex but whatever. Even if you accept that Joe Frazier stayed focused on his goal, won the championship, unified it against the elimination's winner, and then fought for Ali to be reinstated so he could ultimately prove himself against what he considered his chief rival, which he did. Spencer, instead, devolved back into a life of wine, women, and drugs. I say devolved because he had problems with these distractions since before he turned professional. He himself said that the best he ever was was in his fight with Doug Jones (who was well past it). After the Terrell fight he acted like he was already champion of the world, like he had already climbed the mountain and attained his goal. In reality he had only gotten one third of the way to the peak and gassed out. Where Joe had a laser like focus that peaked in March of 1971 when he accomplished the goal he set out to years earlier Thad Spencer, in contrast, never possessed the mental fortitude of Frazier and went on to lose to an increasingly pedestrian group of fighters. What makes this story so hard for me to sympathize with is that Spencer, if he was as good as his supporters claim, had a much easier path in 1967/1968 to the championship than he did in 1966 and he threw it all away. Frankly, thats a best case scenario for Spencer. Thats all if you believe that Spencer was as good as il duce believes he was. I dont. I think he was maybe on par with any of the other contenders but certainly not better and certainly not head and shoulders better. I think he would have lost to Quarry, and Bonavena, and Ellis, and Patterson, and several other fighters that were just beginning to come to the forefront as Ali entered his exile. I think had he been lucky enough to get through the elimination with a paper title (a very big if given the level competition) I think Frazier stops him as easily as he stopped Ellis. In short, I think even if all of the stars aligned in favor of Spencer history would not have been greatly altered by his success in the ring. The fact that his head was never fully in the game is as great, or greater, a detriment, in my opinion, than a lack of punching power, or a lack of speed, or a being to too short, etc. Those "limitations" can be overcome with technique and timing. A lack of focus is an achilles heel that will always pop back up and result in a loss at some point.

[klompton]

Most boxers have to overcome adversity. Its one of the things that makes them compelling. Thad suffered his injury before he turned pro so it wasnt seen by him as insurmountable obstacle to success, why should i view it as such?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali's opposition is as bullet proof as any fighter whom ever lived. Machen? Spencer? That's it? Good on him.

[Bobbyptsd]

Here is an interesting contrast which illustrates why I dont have a whole lot of sympathy for Thad Spencer:

Thad Spencer and Joe Frazier were seperated by less than year in age. Both became real, legitimate contenders at about the same time. Both saw Ali as the ultimate prize to prove themselves against. When Ali was exiled Frazier was the top ranked contender and boycotted the elimination that Thad Spencer took part in. Both now had a clear, and easier path to the championship. The implication by Spencer apologists is that once he lost the opportunity to face Ali he went into a tailspin and was never the same. I dont personally think its that complex but whatever. Even if you accept that Joe Frazier stayed focused on his goal, won the championship, unified it against the elimination's winner, and then fought for Ali to be reinstated so he could ultimately prove himself against what he considered his chief rival, which he did. Spencer, instead, devolved back into a life of wine, women, and drugs. I say devolved because he had problems with these distractions since before he turned professional. He himself said that the best he ever was was in his fight with Doug Jones (who was well past it). After the Terrell fight he acted like he was already champion of the world, like he had already climbed the mountain and attained his goal. In reality he had only gotten one third of the way to the peak and gassed out. Where Joe had a laser like focus that peaked in March of 1971 when he accomplished the goal he set out to years earlier Thad Spencer, in contrast, never possessed the mental fortitude of Frazier and went on to lose to an increasingly pedestrian group of fighters. What makes this story so hard for me to sympathize with is that Spencer, if he was as good as his supporters claim, had a much easier path in 1967/1968 to the championship than he did in 1966 and he threw it all away. Frankly, thats a best case scenario for Spencer. Thats all if you believe that Spencer was as good as il duce believes he was. I dont. I think he was maybe on par with any of the other contenders but certainly not better and certainly not head and shoulders better. I think he would have lost to Quarry, and Bonavena, and Ellis, and Patterson, and several other fighters that were just beginning to come to the forefront as Ali entered his exile. I think had he been lucky enough to get through the elimination with a paper title (a very big if given the level competition) I think Frazier stops him as easily as he stopped Ellis. In short, I think even if all of the stars aligned in favor of Spencer history would not have been greatly altered by his success in the ring. The fact that his head was never fully in the game is as great, or greater, a detriment, in my opinion, than a lack of punching power, or a lack of speed, or a being to too short, etc. Those "limitations" can be overcome with technique and timing. A lack of focus is an achilles heel that will always pop back up and result in a loss at some point.

Paragraphs, man, break it up a bit.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo crawled out from under his rock, and found out that his mother still sews socks that smell.

The poor bastard.

Still, at least he isn't a shut-in reclusive freak like me.

All I have to look forward is naked skype session with cute little Nancey.

Jesus Bless.

Well said.

[evrenb]

Giancarlo crawled out from under his rock, and found out that his mother still sews socks that smell.

The poor bastard.

Still, at least he isn't a shut-in reclusive freak like me.

All I have to look forward is naked skype session with cute little Nancey.

Jesus Bless.

Well said.

I'm still living off the interest on my winnings when I bet that Larry Holmes would 'destroy'
Muhammad Ali.

Talk about the 'safest' best in Boxing,,,,,,,,,,,,,Easy Money,,,,,,,,,,, DD

Then 'Doubled Up' that Muhammad would try and fight John L. Gardner.

Ka-Ching.............Thanks Cassius

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... uFsVSPlo6g

Hi Il Duce

Do you have a vendetta against Ali?

evrenb

[evrenb]

Giancarlo crawled out from under his rock, and found out that his mother still sews socks that smell.

The poor bastard.

Still, at least he isn't a shut-in reclusive freak like me.

All I have to look forward is naked skype session with cute little Nancey.

Jesus Bless.

Well said.

I'm still living off the interest on my winnings when I bet that Larry Holmes would 'destroy'
Muhammad Ali.

Talk about the 'safest' best in Boxing,,,,,,,,,,,,,Easy Money,,,,,,,,,,, DD

Then 'Doubled Up' that Muhammad would try and fight John L. Gardner.

Ka-Ching.............Thanks Cassius

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... uFsVSPlo6g

Duce

Although you show sound research and you are very thorough I cannot accept that you're argument is non-biased. It is very clear that you are not an Ali fan. You are entitled to your opinion of course. As someone stated earlier Ali's resume is stellar and that he didn't face a couple of contenders cannot be held against him.
All fighters(and their management) make decisions which are not always boxing ; some are political, some financial and some geographical.
I think it is fair to surmise that had Ali been allowed to continue and Spencer kept winning then the two would have met. Ali would not have avoided him. It would probably have been a fair challenge but ultimately an unsuccessful one.
evrenb

[evrenb]

No Vendetta,

Mr. Evren B.

But, Giancarlo does not contribute anything to the this thread but criticism and 'weak and snide' remarks.

So when he exposes himself, he must be put back in his place at the back of the Bus.

Can I ask you....Muhammad Ali vs Thad Spencer 1967.....how does the fight go? Unbiased now...lol

[evrenb]

Good Question Mr. Evren B.

1967 was 'The Best of Thad', and 'The Best of Muhammad'

Original Plans called for an 'possible' April 1967 Bout, but it looked like it was going to
be pushed back to May 1967 in either San Francisco, Oakland or Japan.

If the venue was held in California, I would say that Thad would have performed better
than anywhere else, as his Manager - Willie Ketchum had a Training Camp set up in San Jacinto,
California -- where he could keep his eye on Thad.

I could see a fight, where Muhammad stayed on the outside and used his left-jab to keep Thad
at a distance, and avoid getting in close where Thad could land his hard left-hands into the
body or short-straight right-hands to the chin.



Muhammad would probably have targeted the area around Thad's eyes, which were prone
to cuts. Thad who had great stamina and toughness, would make the fight and keep the
pressure on Muhammad, primarily during the early middle-Rounds {5 thru 9}.

Can't see Muhammad doing any major damage during the first-half of the bout, as he would be
on the move with Thad pressing forward. On the other hand, Thad was a very smart fighter,
and was patient in waiting to fire-away, and he would not waste any energy with foolish
flurries which would play into Muhammad's hands.

Thad's aggressive style would keep the fight 'close' on the Scorecards thru 8-Rounds,
probably {4-2-2 in Rounds}. Though Muhammad would be leading the bout on Points,
the fight would be very competitive and with all of the Rounds being closely contested.

Thad's strength was his stamina and patience, and during Rounds 10, 11 and 12 - he would kick
it into 'high-gear' and have his best moments while working at his highest punch-rate. Thad's
strong rally has the bout 'All Even' after 12-Rounds.

Turning point would probably be late in Round 12 or Round 13, when Muhammad catches Thad
who has now opened up with one of his slashing 'skin-tearing' punches which opens up the cut
over Thad's left eye. This cut effects Thad's vision, and limits his aggressiveness. This allows
Muhammad to jab his way to sweeping the last 3-Rounds.

I will try and get time to respond to this later....suffice to say I do not agree...except for the eventual winner..

evren

[klompton]

Spencer wouldnt win more than three rounds against Ali. He may not see the finish line either.

[evrenb]

Spencer wouldnt win more than three rounds against Ali. He may not see the finish line either.

Il Duce

I have to side with this prediction...Aside from Mildenberger who was a southpaw who in Ali's reign gave Ali trouble?
How many rounds did he lose..? Not many....

[evrenb]

Spencer wouldnt win more than three rounds against Ali. He may not see the finish line either.

Il Duce

I have to side with this prediction...Aside from Mildenberger who was a southpaw who in Ali's reign gave Ali trouble?
How many rounds did he lose..? Not many....

Starting with Doug Jones

Hard to say that Cassius was overly-dominant in this closely contested battle.

Depending on who you talk to it was 5-4-1 in Rounds either way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henry Cooper

Was ahead on Points, when the bout was stopped by TKO on cuts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sonny Liston I

On the Scorecards, it was 'Even', and Sonny was given a {10-8 Score} in Round 5
by one of the Officials.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Out of '19' Completed Rounds, Cassius was behind.

ermm your facts are incorrect...Doug Jones was not a title fight..you also fail to mention Ali's dominance in the other title matches . . you are altering history to suit your argument...plus your facts are incomplete....

evrenb

[evrenb]

[quote="Il Duce"]OK, Fair Enough

How do you evaluate the Lewiston, Maine fiasco,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ali won that round ;;-)