James J. Jeffries '1902' vs. Muhammad Ali '1974' ~ 25-Rounds

[keithmoonhangover]

You better ask - Roy 'Tiger' Williams and Al 'Blue' Lewis about that................... :>

And, Oscar Bonavena floored Muhammad with a 'wicked' left-hook to the mid-section in Round 9,
that took the legs out from Muhammad.

Muhammad 'tasted the dirty canvas', but the Referee - Mark Conn blew the call.

After the bout, Mark Conn 'apologized' for his error.

Mark Conn, "It was categorically not a knockdown. Ali slipped while throwing a punch."

[gilgamesh]

Referee - Mark Conn

"I made an error. Oscar threw a left-hook to the mid-section, and it landed. No matter what,
Muhammad went down from the force of the punch, as it landed with a thud."

"Yes, Muhammad was throwing a punch just after the left-hook ripped his belly. But, his legs
went out because of the force from Oscar's punch, not because of the re-coil from his miss."

"As I moved in, I did ask Muhammad if he was OK. So yes, it was a knockdown."

Yet another made up quote. A referee wouldn't be so long-winded about a call he thought he made a mistake on.

[raylawpc]

Good Analysis Ray-Law-PC

But the James J. Jeffries of 1902 would not have to worry so much about a Full-Round of
quickness in the Muhammad Ali of 1974.

Over a 25-Round bout, those later Round left hooks into the face and right-hand smashes
into the mid-section would numb Muhammad by Round 20.

This bout would be a 'drag-out' slow-paced Marathon, not a 1/4 Mile Drag Race.

If they fought in the 1970s, it would be 15 rounds. But if Jeff's fighting a Cassius Clay born in 1872, and Clay is fighting in the style of those times, you are right; it would have been a 20 or 25 round fight. But I suspect given Ali's natural talents, a Cassius Clay born in 1872 would have been an awesome fighter even in the styles of those times. It still would have been a hell of a fight.

[raylawpc]

Good Analysis Ray-Law-PC

But the James J. Jeffries of 1902 would not have to worry so much about a Full-Round of
quickness in the Muhammad Ali of 1974.

Over a 25-Round bout, those later Round left hooks into the face and right-hand smashes
into the mid-section would numb Muhammad by Round 20.

This bout would be a 'drag-out' slow-paced Marathon, not a 1/4 Mile Drag Race.

Ali never went down from a body shot and took the best shots of Frazier and Foreman.

Actually, the Wepner knockdown was from a right to the body, and it was an official knockdown . . .

[raylawpc]

Personally

I don't think anybody thought Muhammad Ali was all that impressive from January 1973 and on.

Muhammad is not stopping a 27 year-old James J. Jeffries, even if he brought his Bazooka.

Personally,

I think Joe Frazier and George Foreman might have begged to differ with you.

[Goldust]

Actually, the Wepner knockdown was from a right to the body, and it was an official knockdown . . .

Even though it was an "official" knockdown, Ali went down because Wepner was clearly stepping on his foot. The body punch that he threw barely even landed and the ref made a crappy call.

[Goldust]

I don't hold the early pioneers from the transitional period from the London Prize ring rules to the Queensbury rules in nearly as high regard as old timers like Nat Fleischer did. I have a hard time buying that boxing peaked in the 20 years after the adoption of the Queensbury rules and then went promptly down the toilet as Fleischer maintained. I don't think that those early pioneers were the totally helpless stiffs that many/most current fans do either. I have boxing instructionals from the mid 1800's onwards so I think that I've got a pretty good grasp of the stylistic changes over the years and the style of the Jeffries era. Much of what we consider today as "modern" boxing was still under development then and in addition the rules and conditions were quite a bit different as well. There's a big difference between fighting in a 20 or more round bout, no mouthpiece, liberal interpretation of what constitutes a foul, and with 4-6 ounce gloves padded with horse hair vs. the now current rules/conditions.

Are we talking about a 25 round bout under 1974 rules or under 1902 rules? Are we talking about Jeffries fighting in 1974 but being born and trained in the modern era or are we taking the 1902 Jeffries and plopping him down in 1974? Are we talking about an Ali born and trained under 1800's conditions or taking a time machine and just transporting him back to 1902? In addition in 1902 fights were scored much differently than today. Typically only the referee judged the fight and it wasn't always done on a round by round basis. The fights were generally scored as a whole and how a fighter finished was more important than how they started. A boxer in those days could lose more rounds but win the decision (or at least manage a draw especially if they were the champion), if they finished very strongly over the final third of the fight and were still strong at the finish while their opponent was basically hanging on for dear life at the end. In many/most cases a black boxer fighting a white opponent essentially needed to knock them out to win.

By 1974 Ali was past his best, in 1902 Jeffries was in his prime.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (both born in the 1800's, under 1902 rules/conditions): Jeffries was never the fastest starter in the world so Ali has some good rounds early, by the 5th round the largely stationary Ali is taking a one sided beating: Jeffries by stoppage round 10

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (1974 Ali transported back to 1902): Ali builds a clear lead early but simply doesn’t have the stamina to go 25 hard rounds. He wasn’t a huge puncher and if nothing else Jeffries could certainly take a pounding and they simply didn’t stop fights that quickly in 1902. By the 10th Ali is taking a beating along the ropes offering little in return. Jeffries by stoppage sometime between the 15th to 20th round.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (both born in the modern era, under 1974 rules/conditions): By 1974 Ali no longer had the stamina to consistently fight for three full minutes and did way to much standing around/covering up along the ropes trying to steal rounds by flurrying over the final 30 seconds of the round. He just doesn’t have the punch to keep Jeffries off or the legs/stamina to keep away. By the 10th round the fight resembles Jeffries working over a heavy bag. Ali certainly could take a beating though. Jeffries by TKO sometime after the 10th round.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (1902 Jeffries transported to 1974, under 1974 rules conditions, bout scheduled for 25 rounds): Ali hits Jeffries at will, however it’s hard to speculate how well he could/would hold up in a fight that went past the 15th round. I think that Jeffries biggest undoing would be the fact that they stopped fights much quicker by 1974 than they did in 1902. This would be a tale of two fights, Ali dominating early, Jeffries late, Jeffries could possibly steal the decision or get a late round stoppage with a strong finish over the final ten rounds, if he could hang in there past the 15th round without getting stopped that is.

Prime 1966-67 Ali vs. prime 1902 Jeffries: Regardless of the whether it’s held under 1902 or 1960’s rules I simply can’t envision Jeffries beating Ali. He had his hands full with the smaller, older, past prime Corbett who had no real punch to speak of and wasn’t the most durable guy in the world. The much smaller/older Fitzsimmons was able to hit him nearly at will in their second fight as well. Ali was bigger, hit harder and was considerably more durable than Corbett ever dreamed of. Under 1960’s rules, a 15 round bout, it’s simply no contest. Jeffries would fare better under 1902 conditions with the smaller gloves and longer fight of 25 rounds. But if it took him over 20 rounds to finally catch up with the older, smaller, Corbett, who gave him a boxing lesson for the better part of the fight, how is he possibly going to catch Ali? I just can’t see it happening, if the fight even lasted that long.

[keithmoonhangover]

Here it is,,,,,,,,,

'New York Times'

'James J. Jeffries Floors Muhmmad Ali With One Body-Blow, Ends The Gruesome War in Round 22'

James J. Jeffries with his face battered and bruised, and hopelessly behind on
points after 15-rounds, put forth a hard body attack in Round 16 and turned the
bout around, by slamming a stationary Muhammad Ali with thunderous punches.

As Muhammad Ali tried to rest his weary legs, the younger and stronger Jeffries worked
his way inside to slam hard smashes into Ali's body. By Round 19, Muhammad's body
was a bruised mess.

As Jeffries ripped away in Round 20, Ali's body went numb, as he was unable to move
while his back was welded to the Ropes. Muhammad was a 'sitting duck' for Jeffries
rib-crushing punches.

Jeffries switched his attack to Ali's head in Round 21, and slammed several tremendous
face-smashers, busting Muhammad's nose and breaking his jaw. The punches sent
Muhammad's mouthpiece out, and is sailed all the way out to the 10th Row with several
teeth inside the guard.

Somehow, Muhammad survived the Round while on his feet.

In the corner before Round 22, blood was flowing out of Muhammad's mouth like a water house
and his nose was squashed flat.

In Jeffries corner, his face was bruised like an over-ripe melon, and blood was gushing out of
the gash on his left cheekbone.

At first Ali's corner wanted to stop the fight, but Bundini Brown pushed his fighter off his stool, and
said - "Don't come back here, unless you knock him out."

You really do live in a fantasy world. Planet Duce must be a nice place to visit.

[HomicideHenry]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

[gilgamesh]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

Ali could whip Corbett and Jeffries in the same night...THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT!!!

[HomicideHenry]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

Ali could whip Corbett and Jeffries in the same night...THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT!!!

In an ironic sense that reminds me of old timers in the 60s who said Sullivan could of beaten Ali and Frazier, and have enough to decision Joe Louis. Both your argument and theirs lack any real founding but personal preference.

[gilgamesh]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

Ali could whip Corbett and Jeffries in the same night...THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT!!!

In an ironic sense that reminds me of old timers in the 60s who said Sullivan could of beaten Ali and Frazier, and have enough to decision Joe Louis. Both your argument and theirs lack any real founding but personal preference.

My argument has to do with the vast improvement of skills that Ali would have over both Corbett and Jeffries, not preference.

At any rate, it's just a hypothetical. In all seriousness, I doubt a guy is going 15 or more rounds with one guy and then whipping another world class guy right behind it. I was just trying to make a point of how much better I think Ali is than either of these guys.

If they were both scheduled for 10 rounds or less, yes I absolutely think he'd beat them both in one night. If we're talking about 20 rounds or some sh*t like that. No probably not.

[HomicideHenry]

In defense of Jeffries on this one, you can't exactly say Ali wind strictly because of the advancement of the sport over the passed 125 years. Ali wins because he was either the greatest or second best heavyweight of all time with the greatest overall speed and reflexes of any heavyweight of the passed 80 years. Cus let's be honest here, the "evolution" of boxing IMHO has shown a decrease in defense, stamina, toughness, etc. And that's across all weight divisions.

[gilgamesh]

In defense of Jeffries on this one, you can't exactly say Ali wind strictly because of the advancement of the sport over the passed 125 years. Ali wins because he was either the greatest or second best heavyweight of all time with the greatest overall speed and reflexes of any heavyweight of the passed 80 years. Cus let's be honest here, the "evolution" of boxing IMHO has shown a decrease in defense, stamina, toughness, etc. And that's across all weight divisions.

It's shown a decrease since the 50's thru the 70's...in Ali's time. There was no decrease to be found. Ali competed in the greatest Heavyweight era ever in the sports history.

Some of the best defensive fighters of all time have come along after the 70's as well, so I don't agree with your assessment that defense has decreased. But I would agree that Stamina and Toughness have decreased somewhat from Boxing's Golden Age.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith,

You are too jaded in your views. You must 'LOVE' Muhammad Ali..........

I'm not biased towards Ali at all. I just happen to think he gives Jeffries a beating. I love Tommy Hearns, Holyfield and Holmes, but I'll pick fighters to beat them.

You have zero love for Ali and it shows in your posts, like the one where you picked Corrie Sanders to beat Ali. In his absolute best, Ali was pretty much unbeatable, yet you're the only person on this forum, that picks a big list of fighters to beat him. Take your biased specs off and enjoy one of the best boxers ever to walk the face of the planet.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith,

You are too jaded in your views. You must 'LOVE' Muhammad Ali..........

I'm not biased towards Ali at all. I just happen to think he gives Jeffries a beating. I love Tommy Hearns, Holyfield and Holmes, but I'll pick fighters to beat them.

You have zero love for Ali and it shows in your posts, like the one where you picked Corrie Sanders to beat Ali. In his absolute best, Ali was pretty much unbeatable, yet you're the only person on this forum, that picks a big list of fighters to beat him. Take your biased specs off and enjoy one of the best boxers ever to walk the face of the planet.

Confused Keith

I regard Muhammad Ali as a very good boxer, but believe he was so 'over-rated'.

And he stunk out more joints than a 'cigar-filled' old mans bar.

Pretty much every man and his dog rates Ali and Louis as the two best heavyweights ever. Ali is a three time world champion, an Olympic champion and he beat a handful of hall of famers.

Do you not rate him in your top two?

[keithmoonhangover]

Absolutely Not

Based on the 'overall', in the Heavyweight Division, I have Muhammad Ali at #11

And you don't think there's a little bit of biased in that decision?

[Controversial]

Absolutely Not

Based on the 'overall', in the Heavyweight Division, I have Muhammad Ali at #11

#1.........Jack Dempsey
#2.........Joe Louis
#3.........Larry Holmes
#4.........Rocky Marciano
#5.........Muhammad Ali
#6.........Jim Jeffries
#7.........Jack Johnson
#8.........George Foreman
#9.........Joe Frazier
#10.......Gene Tunney

That's odd because you had him at number 5 before, above Jeffries?

[keithmoonhangover]

Absolutely Not

Based on the 'overall', in the Heavyweight Division, I have Muhammad Ali at #11

And you don't think there's a little bit of biased in that decision?

Biased.....?

Just a fair evaluation on the overall. I'm not fooled by 'hype' and media theatrics.

'Hype'. An Olympic champion, Three time Heavyweight Champion, with wins over SEVEN Hall of Famers and he did that while missing three and a half years.

[Syntax Error]

James J. Jeffries

"I'll walk him down. The man has already been floored several times, and his whiskers are 'weak'."

"Oh, he has a big heart, but he's not smart. I disregard his win over George Foreman, who was nothing more
than a big lug swinging for home-runs against a soft-tossing junk-ball pitcher."

"Many 'junk-ball' pitchers struck out Babe Ruth. That didn't make them great. It makes them lucky."

Ali was only floored 3 times legitimately in his whole career (Wepner was not a true KD), so that certainly doesn't point to him having weak whiskers.

[Controversial]

Mr. Controversial

After further evaluation, I dropped Muhammad Ali from #5 to #11.

'Big Jeff' moves up to #5.

Muhammad Ali had too many 'stinkeroo's.

I doubt that very much. The post where you rated Ali the 5th greatest heavyweight ever was just 3 months ago and you never had a good word to say about him then either, same old posts about him as you post today.

[Goldust]

Cus let's be honest here, the "evolution" of boxing IMHO has shown a decrease in defense, stamina, toughness, etc. And that's across all weight divisions.

Sadly I have to agree with this assessment. The technical skills in boxing today are simply horrible across the board with the heavyweights being particularly bad. I have old instructionals from the 40's and 50's that show under the "basic" techniques sections things that you hardly see anymore.

There was a time when using a shoulder roll to avoid a right hand was considered to be a basic technique. Sure not all guys were great at it but they were at least taught how to perform it back when they were amateurs. Today when a guy like Mayweather does a shoulder roll the announcers scream as if the guy just levitated, as if it was something that they've never seen before.

You rarely see guys parry punches anymore, use the basic stop block and fire a return jab (basic day one boxing years ago), consistently slip/bob and weave to avoid punches etc.

I'm not some old timer that thinks that the "good old days" were perfect. The old nfl teams that I grew up watching in the 1970's would get annihilated by the pro teams of today. Even if they took the modern players off steroids and they played under 1970's rules they would still get pummeled. I only wish that the current boxers were the best ever, if they were I would have no problem admitting it, sadly it just isn't the case.

[Sven Tingstrom]

James J. Jeffries

"I'll walk him down. The man has already been floored several times, and his whiskers are 'weak'."

"Oh, he has a big heart, but he's not smart. I disregard his win over George Foreman, who was nothing more
than a big lug swinging for home-runs against a soft-tossing junk-ball pitcher."

"Many 'junk-ball' pitchers struck out Babe Ruth. That didn't make them great. It makes them lucky."

Ali was only floored 3 times legitimately in his whole career (Wepner was not a true KD), so that certainly doesn't point to him having weak whiskers.

Referee called it a knock down. Counted over him and everything.

It only counts as a knockdown if you agree with it?

[Robinson]

Corbett was faster than Ali..??@


Based upon what evidence ?!

Some contemporary hating romantic writers that drooled for the
days when coloured men were banned from boxing a strapping
white man?
Or the extensive archival footage one has of Corbett ?>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVwNVzqQeeg

sure the quality is grainy and the speed is retarded due to
the mechanism but one can appreciate fundamentals and form.

It was a different era.

[fanman]

fun idea but ... we have no footage of jeffries etc. we can see that they fought in an upstanding 'gentlemanly' style with simple, pawing punches and clubbing blows. they wore extremely small gloves and were incredibly tough. we have little footage to gleam reactions and skill. basically they were tough but crude.
with the 'sugar ray' style i have no doubt ali would jab jeffries to bits. best chance is that maybe ali would brake his hand on jeffries head.