Marciano: Was the 49-0 record bogus?

[Coco]

If rocky cane back now - what weight division would he compete in ?

Whatever one he wanted, Cruiser or heavyweight. He'd have the option to take gear like Tyson, Adamek, Holyfield, Roy Jones etc etc. he could bulk up to 200lbs and would wipe the floor with today's crop of gutless heavyweights.

Marciano wasn't big enough for Tyson, let alone a Holmes, Bowe, Lewis or the Klits. He wouldn't have got past the jab.

[Tomasino]

If rocky cane back now - what weight division would he compete in ?

Whatever one he wanted, Cruiser or heavyweight. He'd have the option to take gear like Tyson, Adamek, Holyfield, Roy Jones etc etc. he could bulk up to 200lbs and would wipe the floor with today's crop of gutless heavyweights.

Marciano wasn't big enough for Tyson, let alone a Holmes, Bowe, Lewis or the Klits. He wouldn't have got past the jab.

Lewis is a bad match up for sure. Bowe was beaten by Holyfield and buzzed by Hide. So he's no chance. Kilts are terrible and it only takes one barrage from Rocky to scare the living shit out of Wlad and make him shaky, what's Vitali got to keep Rocky away? A pawing jab? At least he has a solid chin but I'd pick Rocky to at least out point him.. Holmes lost to Spinks whom Rocky would have knocked out so he hardly has no chance against Larry. That leaves the front runner Tyson, who couldn't handle fighters who came to him without fear. Who never won a fight he was losing. Who clinched and held inside to get a rest. Who lost impetus past round 5. Rocky would probs lose an ear but win the fight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wow, you must think Marciano is superman. You think he beats Bowe and Vitali, both of whom outweighed him by 50-60 lbs, Hide was far quicker than Rocky, and was a terrific puncher - sure, he buzzed Bowe, but he also got the shit beaten out of him. Marciano was flattened by Archie Moore - what's your point?

Bowe and Vitali had excellent offensive skills, and in Bowe's case, a terrific inside game. Vitali was every bit as tough as Marciano, a better technician, and just too big. Holmes would have just danced rings around Marciano all night, and busted him up, much like Walcott did, the difference is, Larry was better than Walcott, and hit harder too. Holmes lost to Spinks at the tail end of a long tough career, before retiring and returning. Spinks was also a very tricky customer. Wlad again, probably too big - Marciano was only 186 lbs in his fighting prime - as tough as he was, there's a limit to how much you can overcome. Even Tyson would have outweight him by 30 lbs in their respective primes.

You need to look at who Rocky actually beat during his career, his two best wins against Career heavyweights were against Walcott and Louis, both of whom were well past their best, and shot respectively.

Tyson was beaten by Holyfield and Douglas, who were both technically vastly superior to the lumbering Marciano, who relied on durability to gradually grind his opponents down - clubbing them into submission with an accumulation of hurtful shots, no way would he have had that luxury against the far quicker and more explosive Tyson. For the first 4-5 rounds he'd have absorbed an absolute barrage from Tyson, without landing anything significant in return. Whilst it is true Tyson struggled with fighters who met him centre ring, it took them many many rounds to overcome him - Marciano was too slow a starter to survive long enough. For all Marciano's toughness he never faced a fighter as fast and hard hitting as Tyson.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Marciano was the greatest heavyweight of his time and built up a genuine 49-0 record as a pro (43 knockouts). The sneering dismissal, the scandalous accusations, the breathtaking ignorance dislayed on this thread is the internet at its absolute lowest.

Yes, the best of his era, but he was in an era that just happened to be in a bit of a lull with regards talent, he caught the tail end of a very good era.

As small as Rock was, he was, unlike Moore and Charles, built like a proper heavyweight, with a bull neck, barrel chest and thickset legs. He was a very tough man, blessed with incredible durability, but he would have been giving away so much against the likes of Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Bowe, Tyson, Vitali and Wlad physically, that it is hard to envisage how he would overcome them.

I am not one of those - bigger is better people, but there's a limit to how many physical disadvantages you can overcome against another talented heavyweight. A guy like Ali at 6'4 could beat Wlad at 6'6" giving away 25 lbs, but I don't see how 186 lb Marciano, giving away 8 inches in height, and over 50 lbs could.

A great little one, beats a mediocre big one, but these fighters are not mediocre. For all Tyson's flaws, he certainly wasn't mediocre. There's never been another heavyweight with the same mix of speed, explosiveness and power. Whilst it is easy to overrated Tyson, it is equally easy to underrate him too.

I think the really interesting matchup would have been Marciano v Frazier, both similar in many ways, Frazier a big bigger of course, but Marciano probably had the edge in one shot power. Great fight that would have been.

[palooka]

Marciano was the greatest heavyweight of his time and built up a genuine 49-0 record as a pro (43 knockouts). The sneering dismissal, the scandalous accusations, the breathtaking ignorance dislayed on this thread is the internet at its absolute lowest.

There's worse things than this thread on the internet, Bennie.

[palooka]

I think Tyson was a good inside fighter

I do too, Coco - he was blindingly fast and horribly powerful from short range. His career and life played out like a tragedy really but when you look at what he did to good fighters when he was coming through and dedicated - he was electric.

[Coco]

James, for me you pretty much nailed it.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Marciano's probably underrated and in B & W, whereas Tyson's overrated and in colour. Given the changes to fight length, and the effect that had on pacing and tactical awareness, training techniques and other advances a fantasy match-up between the two would be close. I'd go for Frazier and Liston over Tyson, but it's all up for debate and there's never going to be a definitive answer. That's the never-ending joy and appeal of FF discussions.

Liston perhaps yes, Sonny had the jab and power to hurt Tyson early, and get him in retreat mentally. He also would have probably scared Tyson witless during the staredown - though it would have been interesting to see how Liston felt when looking into eyes as dark and piercing as his own.

Frazier no, for the same reason I'd not pick Marciano. Frazier was a slow burner, and not terribly fleet of foot. I think he would have shipped too much punishment early on. Tyson's power and speed would have meant an early night. I tend to think Frazier rather overrated. The one huge puncher he faced (he never faced Lyle nor Shavers), smashed him to pieces, and I believe his wars with Ali who was not a puncher, flatter him a little.

As you say, all conjecture though.

[Rexob]

There is no way a face first brawler like Marciano at 187ish pound is beating a 220 pound solid Tyson? it would just be a mess sorry Marciano fans, Tyson would win all day long every time.

I always think those who reside in Tysons asshole know least about boxing. Who did Tyson ever beat on par with Charles and Walcott? Who did he beat with chin, heart and bone breaking power.

Do you think Tyson was a good inside fighter Rexob?

Yes

[Tomasino]

There is no way a face first brawler like Marciano at 187ish pound is beating a 220 pound solid Tyson? it would just be a mess sorry Marciano fans, Tyson would win all day long every time.

I always think those who reside in Tysons asshole know least about boxing. Who did Tyson ever beat on par with Charles and Walcott? Who did he beat with chin, heart and bone breaking power.

Do you think Tyson was a good inside fighter Rexob?

Yes

Says it all, thank you

[Tomasino]

Wow, you must think Marciano is superman. You think he beats Bowe and Vitali, both of whom outweighed him by 50-60 lbs, Hide was far quicker than Rocky, and was a terrific puncher - sure, he buzzed Bowe, but he also got the poo beaten out of him. Marciano was flattened by Archie Moore - what's your point?

Bowe and Vitali had excellent offensive skills, and in Bowe's case, a terrific inside game. Vitali was every bit as tough as Marciano, a better technician, and just too big. Holmes would have just danced rings around Marciano all night, and busted him up, much like Walcott did, the difference is, Larry was better than Walcott, and hit harder too. Holmes lost to Spinks at the tail end of a long tough career, before retiring and returning. Spinks was also a very tricky customer. Wlad again, probably too big - Marciano was only 186 lbs in his fighting prime - as tough as he was, there's a limit to how much you can overcome. Even Tyson would have outweight him by 30 lbs in their respective primes.

You need to look at who Rocky actually beat during his career, his two best wins against Career heavyweights were against Walcott and Louis, both of whom were well past their best, and shot respectively.

Tyson was beaten by Holyfield and Douglas, who were both technically vastly superior to the lumbering Marciano, who relied on durability to gradually grind his opponents down - clubbing them into submission with an accumulation of hurtful shots, no way would he have had that luxury against the far quicker and more explosive Tyson. For the first 4-5 rounds he'd have absorbed an absolute barrage from Tyson, without landing anything significant in return. Whilst it is true Tyson struggled with fighters who met him centre ring, it took them many many rounds to overcome him - Marciano was too slow a starter to survive long enough. For all Marciano's toughness he never faced a fighter as fast and hard hitting as Tyson.

And Tyson never faced someone as hard hitting, fearless and durable as Rocky. I cant believe you compared Hide to him

I don't think he's superman, that's just ridiculous. However he would have destroyed the likes of hide at his peak. Flattened by Moore? Lol he was knocked down and got up to destroy him. Archie is one of if not the greatest puncher of all time and a boxer who's skills are unmatched today. Just shows your one Of those guys who has a low opinion of fighters from the past. Which you are entitled to be of course but your post had me laughing for a bit there.

[Rexob]

I always think those who reside in Tysons asshole know least about boxing. Who did Tyson ever beat on par with Charles and Walcott? Who did he beat with chin, heart and bone breaking power.

Do you think Tyson was a good inside fighter Rexob?[/quote]


Yes [/quote]


Says it all, thank you [/quote]

Lets have a vote

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wow, you must think Marciano is superman. You think he beats Bowe and Vitali, both of whom outweighed him by 50-60 lbs, Hide was far quicker than Rocky, and was a terrific puncher - sure, he buzzed Bowe, but he also got the poo beaten out of him. Marciano was flattened by Archie Moore - what's your point?

Bowe and Vitali had excellent offensive skills, and in Bowe's case, a terrific inside game. Vitali was every bit as tough as Marciano, a better technician, and just too big. Holmes would have just danced rings around Marciano all night, and busted him up, much like Walcott did, the difference is, Larry was better than Walcott, and hit harder too. Holmes lost to Spinks at the tail end of a long tough career, before retiring and returning. Spinks was also a very tricky customer. Wlad again, probably too big - Marciano was only 186 lbs in his fighting prime - as tough as he was, there's a limit to how much you can overcome. Even Tyson would have outweight him by 30 lbs in their respective primes.

You need to look at who Rocky actually beat during his career, his two best wins against Career heavyweights were against Walcott and Louis, both of whom were well past their best, and shot respectively.

Tyson was beaten by Holyfield and Douglas, who were both technically vastly superior to the lumbering Marciano, who relied on durability to gradually grind his opponents down - clubbing them into submission with an accumulation of hurtful shots, no way would he have had that luxury against the far quicker and more explosive Tyson. For the first 4-5 rounds he'd have absorbed an absolute barrage from Tyson, without landing anything significant in return. Whilst it is true Tyson struggled with fighters who met him centre ring, it took them many many rounds to overcome him - Marciano was too slow a starter to survive long enough. For all Marciano's toughness he never faced a fighter as fast and hard hitting as Tyson.

And Tyson never faced someone as hard hitting, fearless and durable as Rocky. I cant believe you compared Hide to him

I don't think he's superman, that's just ridiculous. However he would have destroyed the likes of hide at his peak. Flattened by Moore? Lol he was knocked down and got up to destroy him. Archie is one of if not the greatest puncher of all time and a boxer who's skills are unmatched today. Just shows your one Of those guys who has a low opinion of fighters from the past. Which you are entitled to be of course but your post had me laughing for a bit there.

I pointed out that Hide was much faster than Rocky, which is blatantly true, is Rocky so godlike that we cannot compare the abilities of any other fighter to him - are you seriously going to say Hide wasn't quicker than Marciano?

You cited the fact Bowe being wobbled by Hide, as for why Rocky would have flattened him, omitting of course to mention the fact that Bowe recovered, and them beat the living shite out of Hide. My point was, the reason that Hide buzzed Bowe, was his handspeed and footwork, so it's a pretty dumbass comparison to say that because Hide did that, Marciano would have destroyed him. Marciano only one guy in his entire career of comparable size to Bowe, but that guy was a complete scrub.

It's like saying that because Corrie Sanders beat Wlad, that Wlad would have had no chance against Joe Frazier - you can't compare apples and oranges.

For what it's worth - one of the guys from the international boxing hall of fame agrees with my thoughts on Rocky v Tyson, so I guess some boxing historians feel the same way as I do. Doesn't make me right or wrong, but clearly my thoughts on the matter or not ridiculous.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

Laugh all you want, but I think the same about your post, your assertions are pretty ridiculous.

[Rexob]

I always think those who reside in Tysons asshole know least about boxing. Who did Tyson ever beat on par with Charles and Walcott? Who did he beat with chin, heart and bone breaking power.

Do you think Tyson was a good inside fighter Rexob?[/quote]


Yes [/quote]


Says it all, thank you [/quote]


I think you need to look at the poll on "could Mike Tyson fight on the inside"

I think you will find that poll "says it all" ;;-) ;;-)

[jamesmcdonnell]

I always think those who reside in Tysons asshole know least about boxing. Who did Tyson ever beat on par with Charles and Walcott? Who did he beat with chin, heart and bone breaking power.

Do you think Tyson was a good inside fighter Rexob?

Yes [/quote]


Says it all, thank you [/quote]

Lets have a vote [/quote]

Michael Spinks and Trevor Berbick were not bad comparisons for Charles and Walcott in my opinion.

[rubberneck]

If rocky cane back now - what weight division would he compete in ?

If he was fighting these days, does anyone think he could've competed at Light heavy? He fought mid 180s for most his career. With today's knowledge on nutrition etc could it have been possible for him to cut to 175?

Him v Kovalev would be an interesting fight...

[jamesmcdonnell]

If rocky cane back now - what weight division would he compete in ?

If he was fighting these days, does anyone think he could've competed at Light heavy? He fought mid 180s for most his career. With today's knowledge on nutrition etc could it have been possible for him to cut to 175?

Him v Kovalev would be an interesting fight...

No, I think he'd be a cruiserweight personally. Rocky kept his weight down with rigorous training, he was a fanatical trainer, running way more than most fighters in his era. I think in the modern era, he would probably have bulked up a little with weight training, which was not very popular in the 1950's, and would have been 195 or so. I can't see how a big guy like Marciano could have made 175. He was built like a bull, despite his short stature, he was built like a genuine heavyweight.

[crusader]

I can't see how a big guy like Marciano could have made 175.

Considering that he regularly weighed around 184-185 would it be that hard for him to cut to 175? Post weigh-in gains of 10+ pounds happen fairly regularly today.

I assume that your are factoring in the additional mass he may have added with weight training?

[jamesmcdonnell]

The thing is, Marciano was pretty much ripped at 186, - he wasn't carrying much excess if any.

I guess maybe if he dehydrated himself a lot it's possible with next day weigh ins.

[Tomasino]

Wow, you must think Marciano is superman. You think he beats Bowe and Vitali, both of whom outweighed him by 50-60 lbs, Hide was far quicker than Rocky, and was a terrific puncher - sure, he buzzed Bowe, but he also got the poo beaten out of him. Marciano was flattened by Archie Moore - what's your point?

Bowe and Vitali had excellent offensive skills, and in Bowe's case, a terrific inside game. Vitali was every bit as tough as Marciano, a better technician, and just too big. Holmes would have just danced rings around Marciano all night, and busted him up, much like Walcott did, the difference is, Larry was better than Walcott, and hit harder too. Holmes lost to Spinks at the tail end of a long tough career, before retiring and returning. Spinks was also a very tricky customer. Wlad again, probably too big - Marciano was only 186 lbs in his fighting prime - as tough as he was, there's a limit to how much you can overcome. Even Tyson would have outweight him by 30 lbs in their respective primes.

You need to look at who Rocky actually beat during his career, his two best wins against Career heavyweights were against Walcott and Louis, both of whom were well past their best, and shot respectively.

Tyson was beaten by Holyfield and Douglas, who were both technically vastly superior to the lumbering Marciano, who relied on durability to gradually grind his opponents down - clubbing them into submission with an accumulation of hurtful shots, no way would he have had that luxury against the far quicker and more explosive Tyson. For the first 4-5 rounds he'd have absorbed an absolute barrage from Tyson, without landing anything significant in return. Whilst it is true Tyson struggled with fighters who met him centre ring, it took them many many rounds to overcome him - Marciano was too slow a starter to survive long enough. For all Marciano's toughness he never faced a fighter as fast and hard hitting as Tyson.

And Tyson never faced someone as hard hitting, fearless and durable as Rocky. I cant believe you compared Hide to him

I don't think he's superman, that's just ridiculous. However he would have destroyed the likes of hide at his peak. Flattened by Moore? Lol he was knocked down and got up to destroy him. Archie is one of if not the greatest puncher of all time and a boxer who's skills are unmatched today. Just shows your one Of those guys who has a low opinion of fighters from the past. Which you are entitled to be of course but your post had me laughing for a bit there.

I pointed out that Hide was much faster than Rocky, which is blatantly true, is Rocky so godlike that we cannot compare the abilities of any other fighter to him - are you seriously going to say Hide wasn't quicker than Marciano?

You cited the fact Bowe being wobbled by Hide, as for why Rocky would have flattened him, omitting of course to mention the fact that Bowe recovered, and them beat the living shite out of Hide. My point was, the reason that Hide buzzed Bowe, was his handspeed and footwork, so it's a pretty dumbass comparison to say that because Hide did that, Marciano would have destroyed him. Marciano only one guy in his entire career of comparable size to Bowe, but that guy was a complete scrub.

It's like saying that because Corrie Sanders beat Wlad, that Wlad would have had no chance against Joe Frazier - you can't compare apples and oranges.

For what it's worth - one of the guys from the international boxing hall of fame agrees with my thoughts on Rocky v Tyson, so I guess some boxing historians feel the same way as I do. Doesn't make me right or wrong, but clearly my thoughts on the matter or not ridiculous.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

Laugh all you want, but I think the same about your post, your assertions are pretty ridiculous.

You sound really upset, almost feminine in your posts. I hope your ok James, it's just a difference of opinion.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'm not upset, you aren't smart enough to upset me.

[kaiserbill]

A guy like Ali at 6'4 ...

Ali was 6 ft 4 in his hole.

The tallest Ali was ever billed at was 6ft3, but there are more than a couple of fight programmes and tale-of-the tape's still out there that list his height as 6 ft 2,5. There are loads of pictures out there that lends credence to that height.

[jamesmcdonnell]

A guy like Ali at 6'4 ...

Ali was 6 ft 4 in his hole.

The tallest Ali was ever billed at was 6ft3, but there are more than a couple of fight programmes and tale-of-the tape's still out there that list his height as 6 ft 2,5. There are loads of pictures out there that lends credence to that height.

I know there's some dispute about his height, however, whether he is 6'3 or 6'4 I'd have picked him over Wlad.

[jamesmcdonnell]

bit of an athlete was Holmes wasn't he. More than just a jab - but the jab counted for a lot. Yeah, with his height too and his confidence in his ability I could have seen a prime Holmes beating a prime Tyson. Would require a cool head that job.

He had great stamina, solid power in both hands, and could put his punches together, he also had incredible powers of recovery, in addition to a very good chin,

I think he'd have probably still had a fright against Mike, even in his prime, but I think he'd have ridden the early storm and started to take over mid rounds, busting mike up and stopping him late.

[Tomasino]

I'm not upset, you aren't smart enough to upset me.

what a silly little girl you are. I feel slightly sorry for you.