BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: Ali could punch. He no Earnie Shavers or George Foreman, but he could hit. He hurt fighters with one punch several times in his career.

I don't think many people think the one punch that landed was enough to knock Liston out. However, it is plausible that the punch caught Liston off guard and knocked him down. Ali stood over him and told him to get up. (One thing that gets lost is that he did this for a very short period of time. However, the picture of it is what people remember)

I think the punch threw him off guard and he ab libbed from there.

Sure any heavyweight can hurt you, Ali may have hurt opponents but other than Liston I can't think of anyone else he knocked out with one punch. I could even give the benefit of the doubt and credit Ali with catching Liston off guard and scoring a flash knockdown but I just don't believe that punch was enough to knock him out.

I don't think many people think it was a legitimate knockout. However, I (and many people) think it was legitimate knockdown.

Yep, and it led to him losing the fight based on the confusion and Liston's odd behavior. It just flat is what it is......and it's just one of those things.

lorenzo1791 wrote:...................................................................................................
BoxBuzz writes:

Lose your temper, and begin with the indescriminate name calling again and your going right back into the dumpster. No one gets away with that style of tantrum in this forum.
...........................................................................................................

You lie, Buzz.

You had to "edit" your flunky evren's post to me a few posts ago on this very thread:

...................................................................................................

Buzz writes:

This is the sweet science. I expect you to follow suit.

.............................................................................................................

But the same holier than thou buzz is enthusiastic about the posts of his flunky giancarlo--who has never made a post on the subject of boxing yet.

Why is it that you never threaten your buddies evren and pooftercarlo with banning. buzz?

Is that because they are rabid espousers of the divinity of Ali like you are?

It's tough being an Ali worshipper, isn't it buzz.

Ok Lozo, brother of Bo

IF I cease and desist the free expression of my opinion that I happen to believe that Ali is a well above average heavyweight fighter, will you promise to recover your senses? Because I am willing to negotiate on this.

As far as point #2....sure I can start threatening everybody whether they have done anything wrong or not. Hey everyone...consider yourselves duly threatened!


Ok....I threw that in, just to get these negotiations started. And as a show of good faith. Will there be anything else Mr Zo?

And now a word from our sponsor......

Remember when your thirsty from a hard fought 15 rounder, and need refreshment fast...and you see our friendly representative walking your way....JUST SAY YES!






Courtesy of the General Florida Orange Grove Conglomerate.

BoxBuzz wrote:And now a word from our sponsor......

Remember when your thirsty from a hard fought 15 rounder, and need refreshment fast...and you see our friendly representative walking your way....JUST SAY YES!






Courtesy of the General Florida Orange Grove Conglomerate.

^

Buzzy playing the peacemaker, but getting in a left jab at the same time.

"I don't think many people think it was a legitimate knockout. However, I (and many people) think it was legitimate knockdown." AAII



"Yep, and it led to him losing the fight based on the confusion and Liston's odd behavior. It just flat is what it is......and it's just one of those things." BB







"Odd behavior" must be a nice way of saying lousy acting job.

BoxBuzz wrote:
Yep, and it led to him losing the fight based on the confusion and Liston's odd behavior. It just flat is what it is......and it's just one of those things.

So do you think Liston made a meal of the knockdown and could've got up earlier? Or do you think his brain was truly scrambled and he couldn't stand when he tried to?

Controversial wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
Yep, and it led to him losing the fight based on the confusion and Liston's odd behavior. It just flat is what it is......and it's just one of those things.

So do you think Liston made a meal of the knockdown and could've got up earlier? Or do you think his brain was truly scrambled and he couldn't stand when he tried to?

I think he was scrambled....but if he had been at full focus, he likely would have made it....I think he did make it even with the tumble right?

How many times had he been down in his career? Not sure he had any practice at recovery. That had to hurt the pride. And Liston did not have a strong psyche. Ali would have made it up.

I think he was wired like Mike Tyson, and there was no ear to bite...so he sort of collapsed....physically to some degree, but just as much or more mentally.

He simply was not a "champion" when you think of someone willing to deal with anything and get back up and win.

I will say he was a beaten man that night, and for those who admired him, if he hadn't have collapsed the way he did, it would have simply happened in another form, that may or may not have allowed most folks to be at peace with the outcome.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Controversial wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
Yep, and it led to him losing the fight based on the confusion and Liston's odd behavior. It just flat is what it is......and it's just one of those things.

So do you think Liston made a meal of the knockdown and could've got up earlier? Or do you think his brain was truly scrambled and he couldn't stand when he tried to?

I think he was scrambled....but if he had been at full focus, he likely would have made it....I think he did make it even with the tumble right?

How many times had he been down in his career? Not sure he had any practice at recovery. That had to hurt the pride. And Liston did not have a strong psyche. Ali would have made it up.

I think he was wired like Mike Tyson, and there was no ear to bite...so he sort of collapsed....physically to some degree, but just as much or more mentally.

He simply was not a "champion" when you think of someone willing to deal with anything and get back up and win.

I will say he was a beaten man that night, and for those who admired him, if he hadn't have collapsed the way he did, it would have simply happened in another form, that may or may not have allowed most folks to be at peace with the outcome.

I agree with most of that and I don't think he would've beaten Ali anyway. I guess where we differ is I don't believe he was so mentally weak that he fell apart after 2 minutes and from that punch. I just don't see anything normal about that knockdown, the way Liston throws his arms back on the canvas, not once but twice, just looks odd along with the strange collapse. Even when he stands and the fight continues Liston doesn't even throw a punch, he just goes on the defensive and starts ducking, not real sign of being on shaky legs and no anger at being stopped either. The ref, Ali and Liston all stop and look at the timekeeper after Liston stands, which to me proves Liston wasn't "out of it" and was aware of what was going on. My view is I think Liston threw the fight, for what reason I don't know but a huge bet on a first round loss quite likely to do with it in my opinion.

I like the way your process you seem a fair assessor. So let me ask you...have you ever been KO'd or near KO? Read about what Ali says about it.....and then template that feeling against what you see with Liston/Foley/Walcott...or best of all who was that guy that Tyson knocked down several times with one punch? It's a very very clumsy state of mind.....(Zab Judah defines it very well) and there are a thousand different ways your mind can kick in and out as you are recovering. So no two KO's will look the same especially the semi KO's. Come to think of it....probably ALL flatliner KO's do look the same lol. Motionless and on the ground.

I have been nearly KO'd so I can somewhat attest to what Ali expresses.


And I am a trained head injury specialist. I can tell you that it is very probable that it just is what it is.


With that said....anyone can fake such a thing.....which is why I think it's real....if Sonny wanted to fake it.....he probably would have just layed down. I think he would have done a much better job. I think he was fighting (a little) against the discombobulating experience. And at the same time exploiting it a bit as well.

BoxBuzz wrote:I like the way your process you seem a fair assessor. So let me ask you...have you ever been KO'd or near KO? Read about what Ali says about it.....and then template that feeling against what you see with Liston/Foley/Walcott...or best of all who was that guy that Tyson knocked down several times with one punch? It's a very very clumsy state of mind.....(Zab Judah defines it very well) and there are a thousand different ways your mind can kick in and out as you are recovering. So no two KO's will look the same especially the semi KO's. Come to think of it....probably ALL flatliner KO's do look the same lol. Motionless and on the ground.

I have been nearly KO'd so I can somewhat attest to what Ali expresses.


And I am a trained head injury specialist. I can tell you that it is very probable that it just is what it is.


With that said....anyone can fake such a thing.....which is why I think it's real....if Sonny wanted to fake it.....he probably would have just layed down. I think he would have done a much better job. I think he was fighting (a little) against the discombobulating experience. And at the same time exploiting it a bit as well.

Ali to brother Rudi immediately after the fight.........

"Did I hit him?"



Ali must have been going through a "discombobulating experience" himself. That was some punch Ali threw.

BoxBuzz wrote:I like the way your process you seem a fair assessor. So let me ask you...have you ever been KO'd or near KO? Read about what Ali says about it.....and then template that feeling against what you see with Liston/Foley/Walcott...or best of all who was that guy that Tyson knocked down several times with one punch? It's a very very clumsy state of mind.....(Zab Judah defines it very well) and there are a thousand different ways your mind can kick in and out as you are recovering. So no two KO's will look the same especially the semi KO's. Come to think of it....probably ALL flatliner KO's do look the same lol. Motionless and on the ground.

I have been nearly KO'd so I can somewhat attest to what Ali expresses.


And I am a trained head injury specialist. I can tell you that it is very probable that it just is what it is.


With that said....anyone can fake such a thing.....which is why I think it's real....if Sonny wanted to fake it.....he probably would have just layed down. I think he would have done a much better job. I think he was fighting (a little) against the discombobulating experience. And at the same time exploiting it a bit as well.

Sure KO's can differ and some punches affect some fighters in different ways, that I agree with. I have been knocked out cold and I don't remember anything about it. I just look at the overall circumstances of the Liston fight. We have Liston who was one tough guy and Ali who never before or after knocked anyone out with one punch and in fact didn't actually score many knockdowns in his career. You can normally tell when a fighters brain is scrambled, the unsteady legs are easily spotted. Liston just didn't look like he couldn't stand, the fall back onto the canvas just looked like a poor attempt to give the impression he was out. All those factors combined with the FBI even suspecting it was fixed make me believe there was more to it. Hey we all have opinions, its interesting hearing other opinions isn't it.

plus there is a possibitlity Liston may have become hooked on hard drugs( either heroin or cocaine or maybe both) since the previous November cancellation of their rematch.
Remember the thread where he took time out his training schedule in early April 1965 to go to Hollywood to film his brief scene for HARLOWE?
Bunch of drug addicts and flakes there in "Tinsel Town"to corrupt a man even back then.

Caractacus wrote:plus there is a possibitlity Liston may have become hooked on hard drugs( either heroin or cocaine or maybe both) since the previous November cancellation of their rematch.
Remember the thread where he took time out his training schedule in early April 1965 to go to Hollywood to film his brief scene for HARLOWE?
Bunch of drug addicts and flakes there in "Tinsel Town"to corrupt a man even back then.

Yep....Sonny was definitely prone to bad choices. If fact any of these scenarios are possible.

Like Tyson, he was physically very competent and his potential immense, and like Tyson, he had a very thin vaneer when it came to true self confidence to the core. The kind that gets you out of the trouble he landed himself in on two occasions facing one of the best HW's in history. When you combine Ali's "can do. will do, already done" attitude with Liston's "oh crap" inner voices....it just further defines the difference and the inevitability of the outcome of a fight like that.

Sure it could have been influenced by any number of scary monsters.....the mob, the religious zealots, the kidnapping of everyone of Liston's family, or a sniper in the crowd.

But none of these were going to insure the outcome of that fight any better than the fighters themselves simply going at it, and the better fighter walking away the winner.

Ali was just better than Sonny at that point in time.


Another important piece of the puzzle for me is watching Sonny's next fight. Where Sonny wins, but he looks like exactly the same fighter, as the one who faced Clay..(respectfully, as that was his name in the first fight) Sonny looks no better in that win, than he did in the loss where he lost his championship. He was just fighting a far less capable opponent. Bring in Ali on that day, and it ends up exactly the same...Liston quitting before the final round.

Just an opinion of course.

lorenzo1791 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Wait a minute,,, I just remembered something.....

I think Ali knocked out Sonny Banks in 4 rounds....but it took Leotis Martin 9 rounds to knock him out. The SAME amount of rounds it took Leotis to Knock out Liston.

I think this may be important.

The referee's calling a halt was highly disputed. .

Yes yes when you get high you dispute a lot of things that are factual. And I'm sure you enjoy your leisure habits.

Now...here is another thing that you "highly" dispute, though it is as surely true as the sun is bright.

Sonny never knocked Ali down, any more than Wepner did....but Wepner's clumsy shoe stomping got ruled a KD....however let's be accurate in our description we would have to say....... it was ERRANTLY ruled a KD. Now we are in factual territory.

So stay lucid and enjoy that one....it's in the record book, and you get to keep it!

lorenzo1791 wrote:

What do you do in your leisure time with your very close buddy the poofter poster giancarlo ?

---your good buddy Gian "poofter" Carlo, who covers your boxrec with his homosexual droppings with your delighted approval.

Tell us what you do when you are alone with pooftercarlo.

Granberry, keep dancing like a drunken fool for our entertainment.

I'll tell you when you can stop.

Can we get the Duce back?

Duce + Gran = dynamite.

Ratings will soar.

lorenzo1791 wrote:
The same buzz who brays:

BoxBuzz wrote:
I'm going to advise all to keep with the rules.....or it's three times and your out in the ol' ball game.

Share your opinions all you like, but stay civil.

If you choose to be truculent, your stay will be truncated.

now writes:

BoxBuzz wrote:
Yes yes when you get high you dispute a lot of things that are factual. And I'm sure you enjoy your leisure habits.

In the same vein--a question for you, buzz:

What do you do in your leisure time with your very close buddy the poofter poster giancarlo ?

---your good buddy Gian "poofter" Carlo, who covers your boxrec with his homosexual droppings with your delighted approval.

Tell us what you do when you are alone with pooftercarlo.

Just what are you suggesting here? Let's just put such rumors to rest.

Gian and I have never been close, though you MAY consider us both to be dashing and handsome, and by virtue of such physically attractive forms, it appears we have earned your keen interest. This of course is not the first time you have expressed open admiration for the strong male form.

As a result most here will likely interpret your questions as driven by jealousy.

With that clearly stated:

YOUR alternative lifestyle will never be used against you here. To do so could be considered hatespeech.

It is your free choice to admire him, and/or me, all I really can do is openly spurn your expressed interests and assure you it could never be.

I of course only speak for myself. You are free to roam about the forum to shop for other love interests.

To tell you to stop your jealous line of questioning may be considered hateful by some. And yet I would of course prefer it if you would cease.

lorenzo1791 wrote:Yancey,

Is it true that Buzz' most treasured possession is a piece of kleenex that Ali blew his nose in?

Hey now you're being hateful just cuz I keep a memorabilia collection on famous fighters?



Actually...and this honestly true....I have a napkin from the Sheraton in Hampton Va that Joe Frazier signed "Boogie Boogie Boogie....Joe Frazier."

It's a prized possession!

But your not pulling a fast one here, I know your doing all you can muster to insult me. And that's just not the BoxRec way.

So maybe this thread has run it's course.