Ali vs Liston 2

[evrenb]

I know this has been talked about many times but I watched an interview last night which I didn't remember seeing before. After the fight Harry Carpenter from the BBC had a candid 'private' interview with Liston. When asked if he remembered the punch, Sonny confirmed that 'it was a right hand'...Carpenter then asked if it hurt him to which he replied 'i wouldnt say it hurt me'. When asked if he could of beaten the count then Liston said 'yes - if Ali had gotten away (to a neutral corner)'. Sonny seemed genuinely cross in this interview as he asked Carpenter if ' he saw the fight (if so) how can you get up with a man standing over you?' He was basically implying that you cant get up and protect yourself at the same time with a fighter standing over you (a la Dempsey).
Interesting...a fight shrouded in mystery...sonny seemed genuine here...slightly embarrassed but genuine. The footage on this documentary was very clear and you can really see the impact of the phantom punch. It was definitely a fast, hard snappy right which jolts Liston's head. In my eyes it would be impossible for a person to react quick enough to take a dive, it would have to have been genuine, it looked completely impulsive. What happened while Liston was down is open to debate of course. From Liston's account it seems that he could of got up....and continued (as in deed they did briefly, Liston reacting most cognitively under Ali's continued attack). I feel that when Liston went down he wasn't 'out' but thought he might take the opportunity to stay there (hence him wallowing around on the canvas somewhat theatrically). This twinned with the confusion of the count,which was mostly Ali's fault as he was jumping around in histrionics. The safest place at that point was to stay down. . .The fight was a combination of Genuine, Confusion and 'laying down'.

[Caractacus]

Maybe Liston had seen into the future and saw how the Ali vrs Bonavena fight went?
(I dont know,im only arsking).

[yancey]

Comments deleted.

(don't wish to go down this rabbit hole again. )

[handsofstone]

I cant understand how anyone who regularly watches boxing think that the short little right hand that Ali landed was enough to hurt anyone let alone a monster like Liston



Just my opinion of course but (viewing) experience tells me everything about it seems put on,from the punch itself to Sonny's reaction

[BoxBuzz]

I cant understand how anyone who regularly watches boxing think that the short little right hand that Ali landed was enough to hurt anyone let alone a monster like Liston



Just my opinion of course but (viewing) experience tells me everything about it seems put on,from the punch itself to Sonny's reaction

Have you watched this odd little collision for it's forensics?


At the VERY LEAST it is far far more than it appears in real time.

Ali's speed is phenomenal, and every muscle in Liston's body reacts.....even though Ali is not planted firmly.

Something rather profound in terms of impact happened and belies it's look in real time.

Sort of an odd perfect storm of physics. You can see it affect Liston in almost every muscle of his body.

Where it landed, the speed of the punch, and Liston coming forward all added up to turn a butterfly wing flap into a pretty good level storm event.

Pretty clearly it Buzzed him....and probably took everything out of the weak psyche of Liston. As long as he was the Bully, he was the man.

But he didn't have much confidence in himself in the clutch apparently.

[BoxBuzz]

By the way....Zora's fall was similar in terms of delayed off balance clumsiness.

Take a look at it.....was Zora faking it as well?

[handsofstone]

By the way....Zora's fall was similar in terms of delayed off balance clumsiness.

Take a look at it.....was Zora faking it as well?

Fvck knows but im pretty certain Liston was,it was a nice shot from Ali but even Liston looked like he knew he effed up

[evrenb]

Almost a flash knockdown... In regards to your comment that I have seen enough fights etc...I disagree... I do believe it was a terrific punch...the more I see the film the more I see it as genuinely natural from Liston.

[BoxBuzz]

Well if Fvck knows, then I suggest we ask him.


And yep by the time Liston got back up, he was escaping the fog.....but I'm pretty sure he had been pretty fogged up for a bit of time....including his tumble moment.

[BoxBuzz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFDe9FQL3s


Check this at about the 9:00 minute mark.

Did Liston tutor Foley? Cuz that looks like about the same dance.

I think they were both dancin' with the stars.

A bit foggy, unable to find their balance, but returning to sensibility after a few moments.



No drama.
No intrigue.
No faking.
No conspiracy.


Just the boring routine physics of taking a sharp lickin, and havin' trouble tickin'.

[yancey]

"I saw the punch. It couldn't crush a grape."

Jimmy Cannon

[BoxBuzz]

I saw planes crash into the towers, I wasn't hurt at all.

Seeing....vs....being at the end of blunt trauma moment.


I'll bet what he saw was the punch that followed....that hit air....because Liston was falling.


That's what a lot of people to this day are referring to as the punch they "saw".

[evrenb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFt6Jk-_RAk

The whole documentary is good but from 32.07 onward is the fight in question. Check out the replay while Liston is being interviewed - look at the impact on Liston's head and neck when the punch connected. . I do believe Liston could of got up so in that respect he took a dive but the punch, the impact and the immediate reaction was genuine.

[Caractacus]

Liston talks about the count out back in 1966(a year after the fight)
and he seems perfectcly pausible to me speaking about it
check out about 1:08 of this clip to hear the interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdEGeBa0alc

[yancey]

I saw planes crash into the towers, I wasn't hurt at all.

Seeing....vs....being at the end of blunt trauma moment.


I'll bet what he saw was the punch that followed....that hit air....because Liston was falling.


That's what a lot of people to this day are referring to as the punch they "saw".

My inside source has told me that Ali was heard saying to brother Rudi in his corner immediately after the fight.......

"Did I hit him?"

[yancey]

btw, the first poster that throws around the "hater" word is a complete jackass.

I don't hate Ali.

I'm only interested in the truth and the Lewiston fight has never passed the sniff test to me.

If it had been a legitimate fight, Ali would have won anyway. It was actually unfair to Ali that what should have been a shining moment for him got turned into a fricked up fiasco.

[klompton]

Ive never understood the talk about a dive. Maybe Liston went down from a weak punch which is debateable but he was on his feet and had resumed fighting when the fight was stopped. That was the blunder combo of Jersey Joe and Nat Fleischer that spoiled that fight. Not Liston.

[sweetsci]

^^ I agree. The bout should have been declared No Contest and Liston should have gotten another chance. I think Liston would have gotten up before ten had Ali not been standing right over him and had he gotten an actual count. If Liston had intended to throw the fight I doubt he'd have continued fighting during those few seconds of post-knockdown chaos. Walcott blew it and Fleischer, a JOURNALIST, had no business intervening and deciding the outcome.

[evrenb]

^^ I agree. The bout should have been declared No Contest and Liston should have gotten another chance. I think Liston would have gotten up before ten had Ali not been standing right over him and had he gotten an actual count. If Liston had intended to throw the fight I doubt he'd have continued fighting during those few seconds of post-knockdown chaos. Walcott blew it and Fleischer, a JOURNALIST, had no business intervening and deciding the outcome.

Should Ali have been disqualified??

[sweetsci]

No, not at all. Ali's infraction wasn't bad enough to warrant the loss of the fight and his title.

Was there a Maine commission? It's too bad cooler heads weren't present. If a No Contest wasn't called, perhaps they could've just restarted the bout.

[evrenb]

Perhaps the strangest fight in history

[yancey]

The gloves from that fight fetched a huge price not all that long ago, iirc.

Imagine what the FOTC gloves would be worth.

[evrenb]

The gloves from that fight fetched a huge price not all that long ago, iirc.

Imagine what the FOTC gloves would be worth.

Alis would fetch the higher price.

[yancey]

The gloves from that fight fetched a huge price not all that long ago, iirc.

Imagine what the FOTC gloves would be worth.

Alis would fetch the higher price.

I would think the winner's gloves would be worth more. Especially the left one.

[evrenb]

You would think so.. But I bet they don't.