BoxRec

Just to be clear, I'm not attempting to insult Ricky Burns. I've got no beef with Ricky Burns whatsoever. I just have a problem with the watering down of the term "World Champion" that's all.

I been pushing this reality, but the effects of celebrity are overwhelming.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 02:17 I been pushing this reality, but the effects of celebrity are overwhelming.

Are you a celebrity?

It looks like the OP (Caldo) was right. I love it when cherry picks backfire.

Badhusker wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 08:48 It looks like the OP (Caldo) was right. I love it when cherry picks backfire.

It's getting old for me, Badhusker. All of my predictions are coming true and pretty soon, i won't even need to watch the fights (i'd say i have seconds before people light me up for my prediction that Stiverne would beat Wilder...lol).

That would be Felix Trinidad.

hoagylt wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 13:42 That would be Felix Trinidad.

Who exactly overrates Tito Trinidad? Generally when I see him brought up in terms of "Tito vs" whoever from the past people seem to have a very good grasp on exactly what Tito did and didn't bring to the table.

Tanzio wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 02:21

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 02:17 I been pushing this reality, but the effects of celebrity are overwhelming.

Are you a celebrity?

No, Cotto’s celebrity hides his reality.

What the f*ck does that even mean? He's a different person at home than he is in the ring? Yeah...no sh*t. I'm sure he's not throwing jabs and left hooks at his family when they're having their Sunday Dinner

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:06 What the f*ck does that even mean? He's a different person at home than he is in the ring? Yeah...no sh*t. I'm sure he's not throwing jabs and left hooks at his family when they're having their Sunday Dinner

No idiot. It means people love him so much they can’t have any objectivity about the fighter.

No one has yet to challenge the point,
Cotto hasn’t beat a B level fighter since 2009 (Clottey, which I think he lost).

Cotto is about 35% great fighter, 65% Puerto Rican propaganda promotion. (By HBO)

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:26

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:06 What the f*ck does that even mean? He's a different person at home than he is in the ring? Yeah...no sh*t. I'm sure he's not throwing jabs and left hooks at his family when they're having their Sunday Dinner

No idiot. It means people love him so much they can’t have any objectivity about the fighter.

No one has yet to challenge the point,
Cotto hasn’t beat a B level fighter since 2009 (Clottey, which I think he lost).

Cotto is about 35% great fighter, 65% Puerto Rican propaganda promotion. (By HBO)

He beat Sergio Martinez. So there goes your "point" right there as Martinez is probably the 2nd greatest win of his career.

I thought he deserved the nod against Clottey, but it was a competitve night.

He also avenged his loss to Margarito post-2009, which certainly was a fight that would've been a sweet victory for him on a personal level.

Also, though he lost to Mayweather I think it's fair to say he's one of Floyd's 4 or 5 toughest fights. No shame in that.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:28

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:26

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:06 What the f*ck does that even mean? He's a different person at home than he is in the ring? Yeah...no sh*t. I'm sure he's not throwing jabs and left hooks at his family when they're having their Sunday Dinner

No idiot. It means people love him so much they can’t have any objectivity about the fighter.

No one has yet to challenge the point,
Cotto hasn’t beat a B level fighter since 2009 (Clottey, which I think he lost).

Cotto is about 35% great fighter, 65% Puerto Rican propaganda promotion. (By HBO)

He beat Sergio Martinez. So there goes your "point" right there as Martinez is probably the 2nd greatest win of his career.

I thought he deserved the nod against Clottey, but it was a competitve night.

He also avenged his loss to Margarito post-2009, which certainly was a fight that would've been a sweet victory for him on a personal level.

Also, though he lost to Mayweather I think it's fair to say he's one of Floyd's 4 or 5 toughest fights. No shame in that.

Was the version of Ali that fought Berbeck an A-level fighter? No.
Was the version of Martinez that fought Cotto a B-Level fighter? Most would say no.

Margarito was not B-level at the time.
Winning 2-3 rounds against Floyd ...

I stand uncorrected by a powerful moderator.
Miguel Cotto has not beaten a B-Level fighter since 2009.
Anyone with an actual memory and boxing knowledge care to try?

Fighters fight for money. He made money, and fought good fighters for years. Nobody is saying he's the greatest fighter that ever lived or anything. I don't know why fans can't just appreciate a guy's career for what it is instead of bitching because he didn't live up to some impossible standard.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:41 Fighters fight for money. He made money, and fought good fighters for years. Nobody is saying he's the greatest fighter that ever lived or anything. I don't know why fans can't just appreciate a guy's career for what it is instead of bitching because he didn't live up to some impossible standard.

No, no, no, no
This is what u guys keep doing. I dont think me or Tanzio are trying to call Cotto a bum.
I watched every Cotto fight except the last once against the Japanese dude.

In 2007, he was clearly a little better than Shane Mosley.
And that is a great accomplishment.
And I do think he got derailed by a cheater ... but

Just looking at Cotto fight,
He was “generational” because of excitement, not just ability.

To me Cotto is like an ultimate gate-keeper. If you aren’t B-level, he’ll victimize u.
But if you are B level and up, you are probably going to win.

But I will * everything I say because I do think Margarito is a bitch who stole from boxing.

So he's not the very best of his era, but he's one of the better ones of his era. Right...that's what everybody already knows.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:52 So he's not the very best of his era, but he's one of the better ones of his era. Right...that's what everybody already knows.

He's the wrong color for bi..

I think that I appreciate Mr. Cotto as much as most people. I just do not think that he is an ATG. Our opinions on who is and is not an ATG are completely subjective.

Thank goodness for Cotto, and Ramming Speed, and SMartinez, and JMM, etc.. They are what makes boxing so great. Not everyone can be an ATG, or a GOAT.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 14:41 Fighters fight for money. He made money, and fought good fighters for years. Nobody is saying he's the greatest fighter that ever lived or anything. I don't know why fans can't just appreciate a guy's career for what it is instead of bitching because he didn't live up to some impossible standard.

Your opinion pretty much sums it up.

Miguel Cotto has been a talented, exciting fighter.

I don't recall him saying that he was ever the greatest fighters who walked the face of the earth. He was never even the #1 fighter of his era, but he was always damn good. Just not quite an elite in the mold of Mayweather or Paquiao, but then again, how many are?

Was he the best of all Puerto Rican boxers, simply because he won 6 world titles?

I don't know if he could have beaten Trinidad or a pound for pound matchup with Gomez. I'm not certain he could cope with the brilliant Carlos Ortiz.

And you might want to include Wilfred Benitez and even Macho Camacho in the mix, even if they're both on the Americanish side. Cotto would have had a tough time upending any of these talented Puerto Ricans.

But for what he was, he was good enough. He shouldn't be viewed as "overrated."

I might question the legitimacy of his claim to 6 world titles. I think four of those belts were earned against mediocre fighters for vacant championships.

Yuri Foreman was really little more than an ordinary fighter, who was competing that night with a bum knee.

And of course his destruction of Martinez came against an excellent fighter who was at the end of the line. Cotto may very well have been beaten by a prime Martinez.

But give him credit. During his heyday, Cotto was always a top 10 P4P fighter. Never the best. Just one of them.

I think the problem with Cotto, why there's a debate like this, a lot of people were still talking about him like he was an elite fighter towards the end of his career. He's had a great career but he's been nowhere near the fighter he was in his prime or even in 2012. His win vs Martinez is good on paper but we all know it was a diminished version of Martinez. Talk about him going out fighting Crawford or another elite fighter was ridiculous he doesn't need to go into his retirement with another concussion. People had trouble understanding he wasn't a top fighter any more.
A bit off the subject but it's become an HBO thing. HBO has a limited budget and a smaller stable of fighters then they used to. So now they're overselling their guys. They did it with Chocolatito, going on about how he's winning every minute of every round in the first Sor Rungvisai fight when it was obvious he was diminished, not the fighter he used to be. Moving slower and getting caught. It gets ridiculous.
They do it with Lomachenko and Crawford. I'm not putting these guys down, they're great fighters. Great for the sport, fun to watch. But they don't have the resumes of all time greats yet. They have nice wins but they haven't fought the best p4p fighters yet.
Anyway, glad to see Cotto quitting at the right time he's made a lot of money hopefully he can enjoy his retirement.

Everybody didn't know sergio was diminished around here. I was one of the few picking cotto. Most thought cotto was shot and about to get destroyed.

Most thought cotto was shot and about to get destroyed.

Fair enough. I thought Sergio Martinez looked diminished in the Martin Murray fight. Along with the slip that wasn't necessarily a slip it was a very close fight that Murray probably should have won.

After re-injuring the knee that had already slowed him down I figured he was in for one last big payday vs Cotto. I figured at 39 once you injure the same knee in back to back fights you're done.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 19:29 Everybody didn't know sergio was diminished around here. I was one of the few picking cotto. Most thought cotto was shot and about to get destroyed.

Who is that "most" picking Ali ? Any names/quotes ? Most thought that this was a cherry pick by Cotto dragging an opponent from a lower weight class.

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 22:29

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 19:29 Everybody didn't know sergio was diminished around here. I was one of the few picking cotto. Most thought cotto was shot and about to get destroyed.

Who is that "most" picking Ali ? Any names/quotes ? Most thought that this was a cherry pick by Cotto dragging an opponent from a lower weight class.

You're highly confused.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 22:33

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 22:29

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: ↑03 Dec 2017, 19:29 Everybody didn't know sergio was diminished around here. I was one of the few picking cotto. Most thought cotto was shot and about to get destroyed.

Who is that "most" picking Ali ? Any names/quotes ? Most thought that this was a cherry pick by Cotto dragging an opponent from a lower weight class.

You're highly confused.

Very highly.