BoxRec

People always like to talk about prime Tyson, but then talk about Frazier succumbing to Foreman.

Frazier was not in his prime when he fought Foreman, he was overweight and soft and his exploits against Ali probably eeked out the last vestiges of his prime.

Frazier was prime in 1969; that's the Smokin' Joe you need to be considering.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 11:04 People always like to talk about prime Tyson, but then talk about Frazier succumbing to Foreman.

Frazier was not in his prime when he fought Foreman, he was overweight and soft and his exploits against Ali probably eeked out the last vestiges of his prime.

Frazier was prime in 1969; that's the Smokin' Joe you need to be considering.

I agree on Frazier. After making my decision on this thread, I went back and watched the Frazier of the late sixties through big George. He was favored in that fight and came in out of shape. Not sure if he was capable of beating Foreman, but he was certainly past it. Late sixties, early seventies Frazier was unrelenting and very much quicker than post Ali Frazier.

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 10:13

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 02:03

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 21:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:28

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:05 We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

I think it's funny that Douglas is post prime Tyson. Mike certainly has a slight punchers chance against Joe

He no longer had the head movement; footwork; combinations; or discipline. Physically he should have been in his prime, but sadly he was well on the decline skill wise. No Rooney; his street buddies in his corner; Condoms for end swells; Robin Givens and Ruth Roper; etc.

In prime, not in prime IMHO is an abstraction, but I agree that night in Tokyo the head moment was gone, the combinations were gone, he became a one punch lunge(r). As I said earlier, I think it was mental fatigue and the women had a big part to play in that. I remember when Aaron Snow tried to put the condom filled with ice water on his swollen face he yelped out in pain (actually in 'complaint') and I thought "what happened to this guy, he doesn't want to be in there anymore." --I remember early on he use to talk in interviews about how he wanted to have the whole career, even the defeats and the chance to come back from adversity like the great champs did, but that attitude seemed to fade before his skills actually did.

Hey who are the two guys who thought the fight would go the distance? Fess up! -- It's hard to see Frazier and Tyson banging on each other for 15 rounds with somebody not going down, but maybe.

I would have a lot less faith in Tyson's punchers chance if Frazier wasn't so easy to hit, guys with Frazier's willingness to take shots generally don't do well against punchers

Are we imagining Frazier adjusting his style and fighting on the backfoot, clinching a great deal, circling away from Tyson

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 12:11 I would have a lot less faith in Tyson's punchers chance if Frazier wasn't so easy to hit, guys with Frazier's willingness to take shots generally don't do well against punchers

Are we imagining Frazier adjusting his style and fighting on the backfoot, clinching a great deal, circling away from Tyson

LOL! I doubt anyone is figuring a new Frazier style. Good points.

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 10:13

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 02:03

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 21:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:28

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:05 We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

I think it's funny that Douglas is post prime Tyson. Mike certainly has a slight punchers chance against Joe

He no longer had the head movement; footwork; combinations; or discipline. Physically he should have been in his prime, but sadly he was well on the decline skill wise. No Rooney; his street buddies in his corner; Condoms for end swells; Robin Givens and Ruth Roper; etc.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 16:33

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 10:13

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 02:03

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 21:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:28

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 20:05 We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

I think it's funny that Douglas is post prime Tyson. Mike certainly has a slight punchers chance against Joe

He no longer had the head movement; footwork; combinations; or discipline. Physically he should have been in his prime, but sadly he was well on the decline skill wise. No Rooney; his street buddies in his corner; Condoms for end swells; Robin Givens and Ruth Roper; etc.

Another value-added post by OTO.

No need to go in a circle. The only part of your post that rings true is the condom balloon. That was ridiculous. You're a bit of a Tyson fanboy. That's OK.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 17:45 No need to go in a circle. The only part of your post that rings true is the condom balloon. That was ridiculous. You're a bit of a Tyson fanboy. That's OK.

I'm actually not a Tyson fanboy, but at least you used words in your response this time.

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 17:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 17:45 No need to go in a circle. The only part of your post that rings true is the condom balloon. That was ridiculous. You're a bit of a Tyson fanboy. That's OK.

I'm actually not a Tyson fanboy, but at least you used words in your response this time.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 18:19

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 17:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 17:45 No need to go in a circle. The only part of your post that rings true is the condom balloon. That was ridiculous. You're a bit of a Tyson fanboy. That's OK.

I'm actually not a Tyson fanboy, but at least you used words in your response this time.

Smartest post you ever made yet.

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 10:14

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 23:03 My bad. Clearly the aging 23-year old Tyson was shot by the Douglas fight; he had been in so many ring wars. His decline in his last few fights leading up to the Douglas fight was obvious which is why no one gave him any chance.

Sarcasm doesn't win arguments. I'm surprised at this response. You usually make decent arguments.

Getting back on topic, with 24 votes in, Frazier is 11 KO's 1 Dec to Tyson 11 Ko's and one Draw.

How about logic?
23 years old is not past your prime.
Tyson had not taken very punishment which may have him past his prime.
Nobody was saying he was past his prime leading into the fight.
Therefore, Tyson was not past his prime when he lost to Douglas.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2019, 12:36

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 10:14

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 23:03 My bad. Clearly the aging 23-year old Tyson was shot by the Douglas fight; he had been in so many ring wars. His decline in his last few fights leading up to the Douglas fight was obvious which is why no one gave him any chance.

Sarcasm doesn't win arguments. I'm surprised at this response. You usually make decent arguments.

Getting back on topic, with 24 votes in, Frazier is 11 KO's 1 Dec to Tyson 11 Ko's and one Draw.

How about logic?
23 years old is not past your prime.
Tyson had not taken very punishment which would make him past his prime.
Nobody was saying he was past his prime leading into the fight.
Therefore, Tyson was not past his prime when he lost to Douglas.

He was a far different fighter. He was no longer disciplined in the peek-a-boo style and no longer had any head movement. He was no longer throwing combinations, merely looking for the one big punch. His skills were clearly not the same. Regardless of the reason, as a fighter, he was past his prime. It was still a surprise that he lost vs Douglas, but it's also clear it wasn't the same Tyson that beat Michael Spinks. So yeah, logic works.

N your logic doesn't work.
There is a difference in having a subpar fight and being past your prime. Tyson was not past his prime. For whatever reasons (he was overconfident, didn't train hard enough etc.) he wasn't at his best.
Tyson certainly had many fights where he looked better; Spinks, Holmes, Bruno, Thomas, etc.
He also had fights wasn't at his best; Tillis, Smith, and Tucker which was before the Douglas fight. He had fights after Douglas where he looked better than these fights.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2019, 14:46 N your logic doesn't work.
There is a difference in having a subpar fight and being past your prime. Tyson was not past his prime. For whatever reasons (he was overconfident, didn't train hard enough etc.) he wasn't at his best.
Tyson certainly had many fights where he looked better; Spinks, Holmes, Bruno, Thomas, etc.
He also had fights wasn't at his best; Tillis, Smith, and Tucker which was before the Douglas fight. He had fights after Douglas where he looked better than these fights.

You just don't agree. He was on a skill decline after he fought Spinks. He gave up the head movement and combination punching (largely). He was physically in his prime for several more years, but mentally, he was past it and it showed in his performances and approach. The outcomes of much of his subsequent fights were still impressive ko's, but the way he won was far less impressive than earlier Tyson. He could be hit more at this point forward. The angles were gone; so was the footwork.

Completely disagree.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2019, 19:15 Completely disagree.

Agreed!!!

Self-discipline matters more than actual age: when a fighter loses his self-discipline, he loses his fitness, his focus, even his dignity.

He didn't magically lose his self discipline right before the Douglas fight. He wasn't as disciplined as some say before the fight or as badly disciplined after. If we didn't know the dates, we would not be able to tell if the fights with Tillman, Stewart and the two with Ruddock were before or after Douglas.