BoxRec

Noxy wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 12:12 Do you think if Saunders were to beat Canelo, he‘d get some credit for it on here?

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 12:55

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 12:02 WBC already did Canelo a favor allowing to "defend" against Khan and keep his belt. Canelo and Oscar knew right after beating Cotto that they need to reach an agreement with GGG. They didn't learn something new after the Khan fight.

This.

Canelo had 6 months to agree terms to fight Golovkin (Nov 2015, up to the WBC's deadline in late May the following year).

After he beat Cotto, he asked for an interim fight, based on an agreement to face Golovkin in September 2016, to allow him time to properly acclimatise to middleweight (which he did by fighting Khan at 155). It shouldn't have come as any surprise that the WBC wanted to force through the fight by that point. They'd already made enough concessions.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:28

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 12:55

This.

Canelo had 6 months to agree terms to fight Golovkin (Nov 2015, up to the WBC's deadline in late May the following year).

After he beat Cotto, he asked for an interim fight, based on an agreement to face Golovkin in September 2016, to allow him time to properly acclimatise to middleweight (which he did by fighting Khan at 155). It shouldn't have come as any surprise that the WBC wanted to force through the fight by that point. They'd already made enough concessions.

Here are the actual timelines:

• 11/11/2015 - WBC orders the winner of Cotto-Canelo to defend their title against GGG, after Golovkin had received an $800K step-aside fee
• 22/01/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy are legally obliged to attend court for the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit, with the date of the hearing scheduled to commence from the 23/05/16 onwards
• 04/05/2016 - The WBC announce the week following the Canelo-Khan bout, there will be a 30-day negotiation period to agree terms for the winner to defend their title against GGG
• 07/05/2016 - Canelo successfully defends his WBC middleweight title by scoring a KO victory over Amir Khan
• 10/05/2016 - The WBC change their mind and formally orders a 15-day deadline for GBP & K2 to come to an agreement for a Canelo-GGG bout, with a purse bid scheduled for the 24/05/16, for a fight to be held by the 17/09/16
• 19/05/2016 - Canelo vacates WBC middleweight title and GGG is formally announced as the new champion
• 23/05/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All Star Boxing lawsuit
• 13/06/2016 - All-Star Boxing Awarded $8.5m in damages from Canelo

Like I said before...

Only three days after Canelo had defended his belt against Amir Khan, the WBC installed a blatantly unreasonable 15-day deadline for the Mexican to come to an agreement with Gennady Golovkin for a title defence, with the World Boxing Council president (Mauricio Sulaiman) knowing full-well that both Alvarez and also his promoter (Golden Boy) were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit.

If you don't believe me, check the facts for yourself.

apollo creed wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:37

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:28
Here are the actual timelines:

• 11/11/2015 - WBC orders the winner of Cotto-Canelo to defend their title against GGG, after Golovkin had received an $800K step-aside fee
• 22/01/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy are legally obliged to attend court for the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit, with the date of the hearing scheduled to commence from the 23/05/16 onwards
• 04/05/2016 - The WBC announce the week following the Canelo-Khan bout, there will be a 30-day negotiation period to agree terms for the winner to defend their title against GGG
• 07/05/2016 - Canelo successfully defends his WBC middleweight title by scoring a KO victory over Amir Khan
• 10/05/2016 - The WBC change their mind and formally orders a 15-day deadline for GBP & K2 to come to an agreement for a Canelo-GGG bout, with a purse bid scheduled for the 24/05/16, for a fight to be held by the 17/09/16
• 19/05/2016 - Canelo vacates WBC middleweight title and GGG is formally announced as the new champion
• 23/05/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All Star Boxing lawsuit
• 13/06/2016 - All-Star Boxing Awarded $8.5m in damages from Canelo

Like I said before...

Only three days after Canelo had defended his belt against Amir Khan, the WBC installed a blatantly unreasonable 15-day deadline for the Mexican to come to an agreement with Gennady Golovkin for a title defence, with the World Boxing Council president (Mauricio Sulaiman) knowing full-well that both Alvarez and also his promoter (Golden Boy) were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit.

If you don't believe me, check the facts for yourself.

Can you put the links? Thanks.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:28

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 12:55

This.

Canelo had 6 months to agree terms to fight Golovkin (Nov 2015, up to the WBC's deadline in late May the following year).

After he beat Cotto, he asked for an interim fight, based on an agreement to face Golovkin in September 2016, to allow him time to properly acclimatise to middleweight (which he did by fighting Khan at 155). It shouldn't have come as any surprise that the WBC wanted to force through the fight by that point. They'd already made enough concessions.

Here are the actual timelines:

• 11/11/2015 - WBC orders the winner of Cotto-Canelo to defend their title against GGG, after Golovkin had received an $800K step-aside fee
• 22/01/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy are legally obliged to attend court for the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit, with the date of the hearing scheduled to commence from the 23/05/16 onwards
• 04/05/2016 - The WBC announce the week following the Canelo-Khan bout, there will be a 30-day negotiation period to agree terms for the winner to defend their title against GGG
• 07/05/2016 - Canelo successfully defends his WBC middleweight title by scoring a KO victory over Amir Khan
• 10/05/2016 - The WBC change their mind and formally orders a 15-day deadline for GBP & K2 to come to an agreement for a Canelo-GGG bout, with a purse bid scheduled for the 24/05/16, for a fight to be held by the 17/09/16
• 19/05/2016 - Canelo vacates WBC middleweight title and GGG is formally announced as the new champion
• 23/05/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All Star Boxing lawsuit
• 13/06/2016 - All-Star Boxing Awarded $8.5m in damages from Canelo

Like I said before...

Only three days after Canelo had defended his belt against Amir Khan, the WBC installed a blatantly unreasonable 15-day deadline for the Mexican to come to an agreement with Gennady Golovkin for a title defence, with the World Boxing Council president (Mauricio Sulaiman) knowing full-well that both Alvarez and also his promoter (Golden Boy) were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit.

If you don't believe me, check the facts for yourself.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:56

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:28
Here are the actual timelines:

• 11/11/2015 - WBC orders the winner of Cotto-Canelo to defend their title against GGG, after Golovkin had received an $800K step-aside fee
• 22/01/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy are legally obliged to attend court for the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit, with the date of the hearing scheduled to commence from the 23/05/16 onwards
• 04/05/2016 - The WBC announce the week following the Canelo-Khan bout, there will be a 30-day negotiation period to agree terms for the winner to defend their title against GGG
• 07/05/2016 - Canelo successfully defends his WBC middleweight title by scoring a KO victory over Amir Khan
• 10/05/2016 - The WBC change their mind and formally orders a 15-day deadline for GBP & K2 to come to an agreement for a Canelo-GGG bout, with a purse bid scheduled for the 24/05/16, for a fight to be held by the 17/09/16
• 19/05/2016 - Canelo vacates WBC middleweight title and GGG is formally announced as the new champion
• 23/05/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All Star Boxing lawsuit
• 13/06/2016 - All-Star Boxing Awarded $8.5m in damages from Canelo

Like I said before...

Only three days after Canelo had defended his belt against Amir Khan, the WBC installed a blatantly unreasonable 15-day deadline for the Mexican to come to an agreement with Gennady Golovkin for a title defence, with the World Boxing Council president (Mauricio Sulaiman) knowing full-well that both Alvarez and also his promoter (Golden Boy) were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit.

If you don't believe me, check the facts for yourself.

I'm not disputing that timeline, but you missed something out.

14/12/2015 - WBC announce that it will allow Alvarez and Golovkin one interim fight in the spring, based on an agreement to face each other by September 2016.

So, Canelo knew he had to face Golovkin in November 2015, and he knew when the fight had to happen by in December 2015.

To suggest he was only allowed 15 days is ludicrous. The WBC said they were only giving another 15 days, because they'd had long enough already. The court case is irrelevant, and as far as I'm aware, the fighter isn't required to be present at a purse bid (correct me if I'm wrong).

The only part you can argue the WBC was in the wrong, is cutting the 30 days to 15, but given (as you've shown yourself) Canelo was busy with other things at that time, an extra 2 weeks wasn't going to make a whole lot of difference. Especially when they had 6 months to make it and failed.

lazboy wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 17:12 Canelo was rightfully criticised.

However today I feel he’s now more respected and liked as he is taking more risks. I considered Kovalev a risk.

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 17:16

lazboy wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 17:12 Canelo was rightfully criticised.

However today I feel he’s now more respected and liked as he is taking more risks. I considered Kovalev a risk.

Canelo and his team are clearly more knowledgeable. They knew that Kovalev didn't pose much risk.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:56

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:28
Here are the actual timelines:

• 11/11/2015 - WBC orders the winner of Cotto-Canelo to defend their title against GGG, after Golovkin had received an $800K step-aside fee
• 22/01/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy are legally obliged to attend court for the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit, with the date of the hearing scheduled to commence from the 23/05/16 onwards
• 04/05/2016 - The WBC announce the week following the Canelo-Khan bout, there will be a 30-day negotiation period to agree terms for the winner to defend their title against GGG
• 07/05/2016 - Canelo successfully defends his WBC middleweight title by scoring a KO victory over Amir Khan
• 10/05/2016 - The WBC change their mind and formally orders a 15-day deadline for GBP & K2 to come to an agreement for a Canelo-GGG bout, with a purse bid scheduled for the 24/05/16, for a fight to be held by the 17/09/16
• 19/05/2016 - Canelo vacates WBC middleweight title and GGG is formally announced as the new champion
• 23/05/2016 - Canelo and Golden Boy were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All Star Boxing lawsuit
• 13/06/2016 - All-Star Boxing Awarded $8.5m in damages from Canelo

Like I said before...

Only three days after Canelo had defended his belt against Amir Khan, the WBC installed a blatantly unreasonable 15-day deadline for the Mexican to come to an agreement with Gennady Golovkin for a title defence, with the World Boxing Council president (Mauricio Sulaiman) knowing full-well that both Alvarez and also his promoter (Golden Boy) were physically in Florida attending court addressing the $27m All-Star Boxing lawsuit.

If you don't believe me, check the facts for yourself.

I'm not disputing that timeline, but you missed something out.

14/12/2015 - WBC announce that it will allow Alvarez and Golovkin one interim fight in the spring, based on an agreement to face each other by September 2016.

So, Canelo knew he had to face Golovkin in November 2015, and he knew when the fight had to happen by in December 2015.

To suggest he was only allowed 15 days is ludicrous. The WBC said they were only giving another 15 days, because they'd had long enough already. The court case is irrelevant, and as far as I'm aware, the fighter isn't required to be present at a purse bid (correct me if I'm wrong).

The only part you can argue the WBC was in the wrong, is cutting the 30 days to 15, but given (as you've shown yourself) Canelo was busy with other things at that time, an extra 2 weeks wasn't going to make a whole lot of difference. Especially when they had 6 months to make it and failed.

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 21:00 Isnt that what happened after the Chavez jr fight? When ggg went to the ring? They announced it?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 19:13

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 16:56

I'm not disputing that timeline, but you missed something out.

14/12/2015 - WBC announce that it will allow Alvarez and Golovkin one interim fight in the spring, based on an agreement to face each other by September 2016.

So, Canelo knew he had to face Golovkin in November 2015, and he knew when the fight had to happen by in December 2015.

To suggest he was only allowed 15 days is ludicrous. The WBC said they were only giving another 15 days, because they'd had long enough already. The court case is irrelevant, and as far as I'm aware, the fighter isn't required to be present at a purse bid (correct me if I'm wrong).

The only part you can argue the WBC was in the wrong, is cutting the 30 days to 15, but given (as you've shown yourself) Canelo was busy with other things at that time, an extra 2 weeks wasn't going to make a whole lot of difference. Especially when they had 6 months to make it and failed.

So on the 4th May, Mauricio Sulaiman announced there would be a thirty-day period of negotiations, commencing a week after the Canelo-Khan bout, for the winner to agree terms to face GGG, otherwise the rights to stage the fight would go to purse bids.

The WBC's head honcho did this knowing full-well, since the 22nd January, that both Canelo and GBP would be forced to attend court for the $24m All-Star Boxing lawsuit during the week commencing the 23rd May. Both parties were being sued (breach by Canelo and contract interference by GBP).

Three days after the Canelo-Khan bout, on the 10th May, the WBC then imposed a fifteen-day negotiation period for Alvarez and Golovkin to agree terms, with the purse-bid deadline set for the 24th May.

Verify the dates that correspond to each point I’ve raised. You’ll surely appreciate that the WBC put Canelo in an impossible position, which led to a 2½ feud between Mauricio Sulaiman and Saul Alvarez.

I’m not making this up. It happened.

Fights between two competitors aren't negotiated, the terms agreed and contracts signed when both participants already have bouts lined-up against other opponents. It's extremely rare for this to happen.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 21:32

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 19:13
So on the 4th May, Mauricio Sulaiman announced there would be a thirty-day period of negotiations, commencing a week after the Canelo-Khan bout, for the winner to agree terms to face GGG, otherwise the rights to stage the fight would go to purse bids.

The WBC's head honcho did this knowing full-well, since the 22nd January, that both Canelo and GBP would be forced to attend court for the $24m All-Star Boxing lawsuit during the week commencing the 23rd May. Both parties were being sued (breach by Canelo and contract interference by GBP).

Three days after the Canelo-Khan bout, on the 10th May, the WBC then imposed a fifteen-day negotiation period for Alvarez and Golovkin to agree terms, with the purse-bid deadline set for the 24th May.

Verify the dates that correspond to each point I’ve raised. You’ll surely appreciate that the WBC put Canelo in an impossible position, which led to a 2½ feud between Mauricio Sulaiman and Saul Alvarez.

I’m not making this up. It happened.

Fights between two competitors aren't negotiated, the terms agreed and contracts signed when both participants already have bouts lined-up against other opponents. It's extremely rare for this to happen.

Where have I disputed the timeline?

If you want to talk facts, it's a fact that the WBC gave Canelo 15 days, commencing November 22nd 2015 (the day after he beat Cotto), to begin negotiations to fight Golovkin. Nothing happened. Oscar spent the time talking about 'marination'.

The WBC then (in mid December) agreed to allow interim bouts in the spring, on condition they fought each other in September. Eric Gomez said that the complexity of arranging a mega fight was the main reason for the postponement. May was too soon. It needed to be later in the year.

Tell me, if November to May (almost 6 months) is too short a time period to negotiate and promote the fight, why would May to September (only 4 months, even without the 2nd WBC deadline) be enough? You want us to believe negotiations don't happen until after the interim fights, right? I'm calling you out on that point. If they want the fight to happen in September, they use the extra time to negotiate with Golovkin's team, as Gomez stated. They may not have every single detail agreed, and contracts signed, but if they want the fight to happen, they at least have a broad idea of what the terms would be, before the Khan fight. They (professional business people) certainly don't spend the time sitting on their thumbs, while knowing there's a fixed time for the fight to happen by. Sometimes, as Canelo has done himself, contracts do also get signed beforehand.

It's also very common, where promoters have been negotiating and feel there's a good chance of reaching agreement, to request a delay to purse bids, in order to allow terms to be finalised (and presumably to allow Canelo to get his court case dealt with). Was any such request made?

Canelo spat his dummy out instead, because he wasn't being allowed to have that one detail entirely his own way, after months of the WBC making concessions in his favour.

Was it a harsh deadline to set, on the part of the WBC? Yes.
Was it unexpected? No.
Did anyone request a delay to purse bids, based on an unchanged fight date? No.

To focus on May only, is to ignore 6 full months of events, where Canelo and his team were fully aware they had to fight Golovkin. They were fully aware of that, the second they jumped the queue to fight Cotto.

Stop your cherry picking.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 21:32Was it a harsh deadline to set, on the part of the WBC? Yes.
Was it unexpected? No.

To focus on May only, is to ignore 6 full months of events, where Canelo and his team were fully aware they had to fight Golovkin. They were fully aware of that, the second they jumped the queue to fight Cotto.

lazboy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 04:42 EO you really need to ask yourself, are you listening or are you simply arguing? If you are not listening, you’re not learning. I suggest you re-read deleted scenes post. It’s very clear and reasonable.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you hadn’t factored in the time post the Cotto fight or factored in who Canelo chose to fight post this. Nevertheless it has brought some interesting discussion. However it’s mostly clear in my opinion. Unless you’re able to bring something new rather than repeating yourself then it’s probably time to say goodnight.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 21:32

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Nov 2019, 19:13
So on the 4th May, Mauricio Sulaiman announced there would be a thirty-day period of negotiations, commencing a week after the Canelo-Khan bout, for the winner to agree terms to face GGG, otherwise the rights to stage the fight would go to purse bids.

The WBC's head honcho did this knowing full-well, since the 22nd January, that both Canelo and GBP would be forced to attend court for the $24m All-Star Boxing lawsuit during the week commencing the 23rd May. Both parties were being sued (breach by Canelo and contract interference by GBP).

Three days after the Canelo-Khan bout, on the 10th May, the WBC then imposed a fifteen-day negotiation period for Alvarez and Golovkin to agree terms, with the purse-bid deadline set for the 24th May.

Verify the dates that correspond to each point I’ve raised. You’ll surely appreciate that the WBC put Canelo in an impossible position, which led to a 2½ feud between Mauricio Sulaiman and Saul Alvarez.

I’m not making this up. It happened.

Fights between two competitors aren't negotiated, the terms agreed and contracts signed when both participants already have bouts lined-up against other opponents. It's extremely rare for this to happen.

Where have I disputed the timeline?

If you want to talk facts, it's a fact that the WBC gave Canelo 15 days, commencing November 22nd 2015 (the day after he beat Cotto), to begin negotiations to fight Golovkin. Nothing happened. Oscar spent the time talking about 'marination'.

The WBC then (in mid December) agreed to allow interim bouts in the spring, on condition they fought each other in September. Eric Gomez said that the complexity of arranging a mega fight was the main reason for the postponement. May was too soon. It needed to be later in the year.

Tell me, if November to May (almost 6 months) is too short a time period to negotiate and promote the fight, why would May to September (only 4 months, even without the 2nd WBC deadline) be enough? You want us to believe negotiations don't happen until after the interim fights, right? I'm calling you out on that point. If they want the fight to happen in September, they use the extra time to negotiate with Golovkin's team, as Gomez stated. They may not have every single detail agreed, and contracts signed, but if they want the fight to happen, they at least have a broad idea of what the terms would be, before the Khan fight. They (professional business people) certainly don't spend the time sitting on their thumbs, while knowing there's a fixed time for the fight to happen by. Sometimes, as Canelo has done himself, contracts do also get signed beforehand.

It's also very common, where promoters have been negotiating and feel there's a good chance of reaching agreement, to request a delay to purse bids, in order to allow terms to be finalised (and presumably to allow Canelo to get his court case dealt with). Was any such request made?

Canelo spat his dummy out instead, because he wasn't being allowed to have that one detail entirely his own way, after months of the WBC making concessions in his favour.

Was it a harsh deadline to set, on the part of the WBC? Yes.
Was it unexpected? No.
Did anyone request a delay to purse bids, based on an unchanged fight date? No.

To focus on May only, is to ignore 6 full months of events, where Canelo and his team were fully aware they had to fight Golovkin. They were fully aware of that, the second they jumped the queue to fight Cotto.

Stop your cherry picking.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 05:22

lazboy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 04:42 EO you really need to ask yourself, are you listening or are you simply arguing? If you are not listening, you’re not learning. I suggest you re-read deleted scenes post. It’s very clear and reasonable.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you hadn’t factored in the time post the Cotto fight or factored in who Canelo chose to fight post this. Nevertheless it has brought some interesting discussion. However it’s mostly clear in my opinion. Unless you’re able to bring something new rather than repeating yourself then it’s probably time to say goodnight.

OK, fair enough.

The reason I’ve doubled-down on making the same point again-and-again is that the preferred narrative is to criticise Canelo, even though the situation was orchestrated by the WBC.

And people are blaming Canelo and GBP, based on incorrect assumptions about how fights are negotiated.

For instance, how many examples can you provide of fights that have been negotiated and contracts signed-up whilst both competitors were already committed to engaging in other bouts against other opponents beforehand? It's very rare and certainly not the norm!

I’ve also checked the WBC’s own rules and it grants a thirty-day free negotiation period for both parties to agree terms to negotiate, finalize, execute, and file a contract for the bout, with purse bids taking place fifteen days after the expiration of that deadline. The WBC didn't abide by their own rule, because on the 4th May they said that this would apply to the Canelo-GGG negotiations, but then moved the goalposts a week later.

I’m not saying that ‘Deleted_Scenes’ didn’t raise some interesting points, but rather than get embroiled in minutiae, I’d prefer to doggedly stand by my original stance, which was that the WBC made a huge mistake, resulting in Canelo and GBP taking the brunt of the blame for Mauricio Sulaiman’s actions.

And this common misconception has more to do with people's dislike of Canelo rather than an appreciation of the truth.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 05:22

lazboy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 04:42 EO you really need to ask yourself, are you listening or are you simply arguing? If you are not listening, you’re not learning. I suggest you re-read deleted scenes post. It’s very clear and reasonable.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you hadn’t factored in the time post the Cotto fight or factored in who Canelo chose to fight post this. Nevertheless it has brought some interesting discussion. However it’s mostly clear in my opinion. Unless you’re able to bring something new rather than repeating yourself then it’s probably time to say goodnight.

OK, fair enough.

The reason I’ve doubled-down on making the same point again-and-again is that the preferred narrative is to criticise Canelo, even though the situation was orchestrated by the WBC.

And people are blaming Canelo and GBP, based on incorrect assumptions about how fights are negotiated.

For instance, how many examples can you provide of fights that have been negotiated and contracts signed-up whilst both competitors were already committed to engaging in other bouts against other opponents beforehand? It's very rare and certainly not the norm!

I’ve also checked the WBC’s own rules and it grants a thirty-day free negotiation period for both parties to agree terms to negotiate, finalize, execute, and file a contract for the bout, with purse bids taking place fifteen days after the expiration of that deadline. The WBC didn't abide by their own rule, because on the 4th May they said that this would apply to the Canelo-GGG negotiations, but then moved the goalposts a week later.

I’m not saying that ‘Deleted_Scenes’ didn’t raise some interesting points, but rather than get embroiled in minutiae, I’d prefer to doggedly stand by my original stance, which was that the WBC made a huge mistake, resulting in Canelo and GBP taking the brunt of the blame for Mauricio Sulaiman’s actions.

And this common misconception has more to do with people's dislike of Canelo rather than an appreciation of the truth.

apollo creed wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 13:08 Saunders just wants to cash in vs Canelo. Now it's up to Canelo to give him this opportunity.