BoxRec

quickeyg wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 18:59 Anthony 'Eddie can you ask me questions only' Joshua

You'll hate him even more soon Dev.

He just smoked the guy who gave Fury one of his toughest fights and he gonna smoke the guy who just destroyed Fury's legacy now too.

jwfg wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:13

BigDoofus wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:08

Finkel wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 12:44 Fury's legacy will be one full of gaps.

He beat Klitschko who won his Gold Medal when Fury was 8 years old. So then it becomes who didn't Fury fight?

Fury has Wlad
No Vitali
No Haye
No Povetkin
Fury has Wilder
No Ortiz
No Pulev
Fury has Chisora
-----
No Joshua
No Parker
No Ruiz
No Zhang
No Ortiz
No Joyce
Fury has Whyte
------
No Hrgovic
No Dubois
No Anderson
etc.

So in summary that is Wlad, Wilder, Chisora, and Whyte

Does adding a win over Usyk create an ATG legacy?
It looks kind of thin to me.

“No Vitali”

Why not add Holyfield to the list?

Take Vitali out. It's still a long list. Luke did have the balls to fight a cage fighter and that's what's really important.

Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

I don’t think there’s a huge doubt at this point that Fury is faded. The guy is taking beach holidays during the most important camp of his life. At best he’s going to be fractionally better prepared than against Ngannou, but still effectively a 20 stone blob who can’t even punch with much authority anymore. Joshua is probably a better fighter at his point. In fact he’s probably a FAR better fighter! Now that might not have always been the case of course, but it certainly is now!

BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54

jwfg wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:13

BigDoofus wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:08
“No Vitali”

Why not add Holyfield to the list?

Take Vitali out. It's still a long list. Luke did have the balls to fight a cage fighter and that's what's really important.

Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

Who ducked who is irrelevant, it's a list of then active top fighters/champions during Fury's "prime". It demonstrates how flimsy Fury's claim to top 10 ATG status is/would be

As @jwfg said "it's still a long list."

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:21

Finkel wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 19:59 @Gilgamesh, sorry, that turned into a rant.

To be sympathetic to your position, as a fan, I think Fury is a lock for the HOF. The Klitschko win in Germany, the Wilder trilogy, undisputed with Usyk. It will be a career with some fabulous moments. But that is not ATG 10 when taken in context, not for me.

If he beats Usyk convincingly. While you personally may not rank him in your Top 10, you'd have a hard time making a good case as to why not.

To me the Ngannou fight didn't hurt his legacy at all. It didn't boost it any, but it didn't damage it either.

Now if Ngannou winds up fighting 3 more Boxing matches, and winding up with an 0-4 record. Yes, then you can say in retrospect it looks bad for Fury to have struggled so much with him, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

That being said. I suspect Usyk can and will beat him.

Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:21

Finkel wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 19:59 @Gilgamesh, sorry, that turned into a rant.

To be sympathetic to your position, as a fan, I think Fury is a lock for the HOF. The Klitschko win in Germany, the Wilder trilogy, undisputed with Usyk. It will be a career with some fabulous moments. But that is not ATG 10 when taken in context, not for me.

If he beats Usyk convincingly. While you personally may not rank him in your Top 10, you'd have a hard time making a good case as to why not.

To me the Ngannou fight didn't hurt his legacy at all. It didn't boost it any, but it didn't damage it either.

Now if Ngannou winds up fighting 3 more Boxing matches, and winding up with an 0-4 record. Yes, then you can say in retrospect it looks bad for Fury to have struggled so much with him, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

That being said. I suspect Usyk can and will beat him.

Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

Tyson Fury has already lapped Vitali. So if Vitali is in your Top 10 then Fury should be. Fury's achievements are undeniably more impressive by any measure.

Usyk's main point against him is just that his Heavyweight career thus far has been relatively brief, but if he beats Fury brief or not it's been as successful as it could've possibly been.

There aren't many Champions in Boxing history who have reigned for 7+ years. Less than 10.

There are Champions who rank regularly in the all time Top 10 by experts who have less title defenses, and a shorter reign than Fury.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 02:24

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:21

If he beats Usyk convincingly. While you personally may not rank him in your Top 10, you'd have a hard time making a good case as to why not.

To me the Ngannou fight didn't hurt his legacy at all. It didn't boost it any, but it didn't damage it either.

Now if Ngannou winds up fighting 3 more Boxing matches, and winding up with an 0-4 record. Yes, then you can say in retrospect it looks bad for Fury to have struggled so much with him, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

That being said. I suspect Usyk can and will beat him.

Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

Tyson Fury has already lapped Vitali. So if Vitali is in your Top 10 then Fury should be. Fury's achievements are undeniably more impressive by any measure.

Usyk's main point against him is just that his Heavyweight career thus far has been relatively brief, but if he beats Fury brief or not it's been as successful as it could've possibly been.

There aren't many Champions in Boxing history who have reigned for 7+ years. Less than 10.

There are Champions who rank regularly in the all time Top 10 by experts who have less title defenses, and a shorter reign than Fury.

Well the fighters I listed have retired, Fury is still active.

But I don't really care about the length of Fury's reign when he has only fought two top 10 opponents since beating Wlad: Wilder and Whyte. In fact, it is a fornicating awful reign given its length when you think about it. But hey, Dempsey also sat on the belt for years and didn't fight some of the best fighters of his era. So there is that.

But sure, if Fury retired today, it would be a toss up between him and Bowe in my above list. Or as you say, possibly Vitali. On the one hand、 Bowe openly ducked Lewis, on the other, he won two of three against ATG Holyfield and was undisputed champion.

But then again if Fury retired today, he is likely getting nudged out by Usyk and possibly even Joshua down the line. Because funilly enough after reading your Ngannou comment above, news broke about him signing to fight Joshua, so that's 0-2 locked in.

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:21

Finkel wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 19:59 @Gilgamesh, sorry, that turned into a rant.

To be sympathetic to your position, as a fan, I think Fury is a lock for the HOF. The Klitschko win in Germany, the Wilder trilogy, undisputed with Usyk. It will be a career with some fabulous moments. But that is not ATG 10 when taken in context, not for me.

If he beats Usyk convincingly. While you personally may not rank him in your Top 10, you'd have a hard time making a good case as to why not.

To me the Ngannou fight didn't hurt his legacy at all. It didn't boost it any, but it didn't damage it either.

Now if Ngannou winds up fighting 3 more Boxing matches, and winding up with an 0-4 record. Yes, then you can say in retrospect it looks bad for Fury to have struggled so much with him, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

That being said. I suspect Usyk can and will beat him.

Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

How on earth do you have frazier 2nd?

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 04:23

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:21

If he beats Usyk convincingly. While you personally may not rank him in your Top 10, you'd have a hard time making a good case as to why not.

To me the Ngannou fight didn't hurt his legacy at all. It didn't boost it any, but it didn't damage it either.

Now if Ngannou winds up fighting 3 more Boxing matches, and winding up with an 0-4 record. Yes, then you can say in retrospect it looks bad for Fury to have struggled so much with him, but I don't suspect that'll be the case.

That being said. I suspect Usyk can and will beat him.

Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

How on earth do you have frazier 2nd?

I don't. It's chronological (kind of)

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23 Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.

Finkel wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 04:50

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 04:23

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23
Fair point, it's all about opinions, but I don't believe it would be a minority position.

Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko

I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?

I don’t think it’s particularly out-there to say no, that isn’t enough. And same would apply to Usyk for the near same reason, btw. But sure, we can chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

How on earth do you have frazier 2nd?

I don't. It's chronological (kind of)

Ah...ok

BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54

jwfg wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:13

BigDoofus wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:08
“No Vitali”

Why not add Holyfield to the list?

Take Vitali out. It's still a long list. Luke did have the balls to fight a cage fighter and that's what's really important.

Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.

Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 20:56

BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54

jwfg wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:13

Take Vitali out. It's still a long list. Luke did have the balls to fight a cage fighter and that's what's really important.

Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

Who ducked who is irrelevant, it's a list of then active top fighters/champions during Fury's "prime". It demonstrates how flimsy Fury's claim to top 10 ATG status is/would be

As @jwfg said "it's still a long list."

Vitali last fought in 2012. Was this Fury’s prime?
Why not add Holyfield to make it longer?

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 05:35

BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54

jwfg wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 16:13

Take Vitali out. It's still a long list. Luke did have the balls to fight a cage fighter and that's what's really important.

Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.

“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 05:35

BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54
Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”

He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.

“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

You can only judge fighters on who they have beat.

Fury's past few fights have been against a professional debutant (which spectacularly backfired), a shop warn Chisora, a shopwarn Whyte, Wilder (who has just been schooled by Parker) and Wallin (who has just been bashed up by Joshua).

That list of opponents is probably why only 68k bought pay per view in America to watch him box Ngannou.

A waste of a talent but perhaps he knew that Ruiz, Zhang, Joyce, Joshua, Hrgovic and Uysk might be too much for him.

big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:25 You can only judge fighters on who they have beat.

Yes, and the topic reads: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight.

big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:25 You can only judge fighters on who they have beat.

Fury's past few fights have been against a professional debutant (which spectacularly backfired), a shop warn Chisora, a shopwarn Whyte, Wilder (who has just been schooled by Parker) and Wallin (who has just been bashed up by Joshua).

That list of opponents is probably why only 68k bought pay per view in America to watch him box Ngannou.

A waste of a talent but perhaps he knew that Ruiz, Zhang, Joyce, Joshua, Hrgovic and Uysk might be too much for him.

I think Fury's supposed talent level, has been somewhat overrated.

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 05:35

He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.

“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

The fight could have happened 13 months ago but Usyk turned it down, yet Fury is “a laughing stock” because FW delayed this by 7 weeks.

big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:25 You can only judge fighters on who they have beat.

Fury's past few fights have been against a professional debutant (which spectacularly backfired), a shop warn Chisora, a shopwarn Whyte, Wilder (who has just been schooled by Parker) and Wallin (who has just been bashed up by Joshua).

That list of opponents is probably why only 68k bought pay per view in America to watch him box Ngannou.

A waste of a talent but perhaps he knew that Ruiz, Zhang, Joyce, Joshua, Hrgovic and Uysk might be too much for him.

Whyte, Chisora, Ngannou and Usyk is Fury’s schedule that has been heavily criticized.
Now the same critics are praising Franklin, Helenius, Wallin and Ngannou.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:38

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12
“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

The fight could have happened 13 months ago but Usyk turned it down, yet Fury is “a laughing stock” because FW delayed this by 7 weeks.

Luke delayed after threatening legal action if Usyk did the very same thing. I thought travellers were hard? Aren't they supposed to fight anyone, anywhere, anytime?

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:48

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:38

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

The fight could have happened 13 months ago but Usyk turned it down, yet Fury is “a laughing stock” because FW delayed this by 7 weeks.

Luke delayed after threatening legal action if Usyk did the very same thing. I thought travellers were hard? Aren't they supposed to fight anyone, anywhere, anytime?

For 7 weeks.
Ignoring the fact that the fight has been delayed for 14 months by Usyk.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:01

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:48

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:38
The fight could have happened 13 months ago but Usyk turned it down, yet Fury is “a laughing stock” because FW delayed this by 7 weeks.

Luke delayed after threatening legal action if Usyk did the very same thing. I thought travellers were hard? Aren't they supposed to fight anyone, anywhere, anytime?

For 7 weeks.
Ignoring the fact that the fight has been delayed for 14 months by Usyk.

You're being silly now. 14 months? Bollocks.

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:13

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:01

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:48

Luke delayed after threatening legal action if Usyk did the very same thing. I thought travellers were hard? Aren't they supposed to fight anyone, anywhere, anytime?

For 7 weeks.
Ignoring the fact that the fight has been delayed for 14 months by Usyk.

You're being silly now. 14 months? Bollocks.

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1185 ... xing-news/

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:27

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:13

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:01
For 7 weeks.
Ignoring the fact that the fight has been delayed for 14 months by Usyk.

You're being silly now. 14 months? Bollocks.

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1185 ... xing-news/

But you're on Planet Doofus, where Fury can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault and he gets a pass for everything.