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Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:37
by Arsenal
Come on Barry don't try and back track. What you said was that Lewis wasn't a true champion! Tyson got KOed by Douglas so on your theory how can he be an all time great? He got KOed by some standard opposition like Lewis supposely did. What was the bigger shock? I'm sure most people would rate McCall and Rahman ahead of Douglas. Instead of throwing insults around give some back up to your claims. By the way did McCall spar with Tyson? The fact that Lewis is in most people top 10 and you still don't think he is an all time great shows you know nothing! As for tough fights Lewis had. He was behind against Bruno, Mercer, Briggs wobbled him a few times, he had a tough fight against Holyfield. Need I go on? Tyson whenever it got tough he went missing!
Re: re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:41
by silkov
barry wrote:>>>So what are you saying here then Barry? You are seriously deluded because you can't even remember what you say? The fact you think Tyson is some kind of god shows you know nothing!<<<
You think you proved something with my quote? You didn't, except that you do in fact make up shit when losing an argument because as it shows I did not say Lewis was not a champion. What I did say was that getting knocked out by two sub-par heavyweights just doesn't bode well for a true champion! Now that is what I said regardless of how you might try to twist it and turn it to suit you. Jeez, are you going to need someone to start drawing a picture to explain things for you!
>>>The fact you think Tyson is some kind of god shows you know nothing!<<<
Again, as is usual with someone of your intelligence, you can only make up shit because you cannot offer anything with any substantial facts to back an argument against me. What, do you actually think no one notices when you make up shit like that?
Besides, I don't think Tyson is no more a God than you think Lewis is, well no I take that back...I don't think Tyson is a God, you do with Lewis...I'm just more realistic about what they did in they're career and realistic about what they probably could do against other all-time greats...Tyson, on any given night, could beat any heavyweight in history, just like any of the other all-time greats could beat anyone else on any given night...You're just sore because Lewis doesn't fit into that category of all-time greats and Tyson does!
>>>when did he come from behind to win a fight?<<<
When did Lennox Lewis ever come from behind to win a tough fight?
Lewis was hurt against Mercer, Tucker, Bruno, Briggs and won all those fights... he was hurt against Klitchenko and still won, though with help of a cut.
When did Tyson prove that he could stand up with the all time greats?... his career shows that he didn't have the character to stand up against fighters who were able to take his shots and come back. Most of his wins were over faded fighters, as soon as he met a fighter who wasn't afraid of him he lost. If you use this argument for Tyson then you may as well use it for a dozen or so fighters that on their best night they could have beaten anyone... Max Baer, Gerry Cooney, for instance would have koed most fighters had they got them right... but the fact is these guys were flawed mentally in different ways and could not make full use of their physical talents. Tyson proved in his career that he wouldnt have the character to beat the greats... Lewis would do better against the all timers because he had a stronger character and he proved this during his career, he came back from bad defeats, came back to win fights when he'd been hurt... all things that Tyson never did.
The difference between a talented fighter and a great fighter is often the character and mental strength rather than any special physical gift...
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:45
by barry
>>>The fact that Lewis is in most people top 10 and you still don't think he is an all time great shows you know nothing!<<<
Most people...maybe in a few of those that don't really know better. He is not in the top ten of the IBRO, whose members are a lot more qualified to give an opinion than you...he's at twelve, but not ten...do you have any kind of actual statitistics, or proof to back what you say about ten, or will you just ignore it, like usual? But then again when you make up shit it doesn't really matter though does it?
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:49
by barry
>>>Lewis was hurt against Mercer, Tucker, Bruno, Briggs and won all those fights... he was hurt against Klitchenko and still won, though with help of a cut.<<<
Please tell me that you don't actually think those were tough fights, except maybe for Mercer, who is far from an elite fighter and being that Tyson just basically walked through two of those fighters mentioned a total of three times actually looks a lot better for Tyson than it does for Lewis...and Briggs...the manner that he has panic attacks in big bouts they would have had to carry him to the ring if he had ever fought Tyson!
>>>Lewis would do better against the all timers because he had a stronger character and he proved this during his career, he came back from bad defeats<<<
Yeah, it takes real character to beat a man having a nervous breakdown during the fight. Hell, Lewis couldn't even put McCall away even then...McCall was pretty much begging to be put out of his misery, but Lewis was too timid to do it! Now there is a real test of will and character!
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:50
by silkov
I wouldn't rate Lewis in the top ten but I'd put him ahead of Tyson for sure. Anyone who trys to foul his way out of fights etc has more than a bit of dog in him and that is not a mark of greatness in my book...
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:55
by barry
>>>Anyone who trys to foul his way out of fights etc has more than a bit of dog in him and that is not a mark of greatness in my book...<<<
Would you really like for me to go through the Hall of Fame and bring out all the greats who have fouled out of fights? Benny Leonard comes immediately to mind in his bout against Jack Britton. Do you hold him accountable, or is that just something that you hold out for Tyson, and only Tyson? By your account, no way was Leonard great in your book!
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:55
by dalek
the vitali fight was definitely a hard fight in mine and most others opinion.lewis did incredibly well to keep hold of his titles that night.
Re: re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:57
by silkov
barry wrote:>>>Lewis was hurt against Mercer, Tucker, Bruno, Briggs and won all those fights... he was hurt against Klitchenko and still won, though with help of a cut.<<<
Please tell me that you don't actually think those were tough fights, except maybe for Mercer, who is far from an elite fighter and being that Tyson just basically walked through two of those fighters mentioned a total of three times actually looks a lot better for Tyson than it does for Lewis...and Briggs...the manner that he has panic attacks in big bouts they would have had to carry him to the ring if he had ever fought Tyson!
Please tell me you've seen those fights?.... the point I'm making is that Lewis had the guts to win when he got hurt, when things got tough.... Tyson didn't. Tyson had a better chin than Lewis, but a much smaller heart, I know which I admire more. This is a thread arging that Tyson 'could have been the best' well he plainly couldnt unless he had had the mentality of someone like Frazier, Marcinao, or Ali... I'm not saying Lewis could have been the best and I don't consider him one of the all time greats but he proved himself a better all round fighter than Tyson and rates higher because of it....
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 08:58
by barry
>>>the vitali fight was definitely a hard fight in mine and most others opinion.lewis did incredibly well to keep hold of his titles that night.<<<
Vitali Quitschko...are you kidding me...you think that was rough and tough? Hell, neither of those fighters combined ever knew what a tough fight was...hell one even quit when it really got tough!
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:00
by dalek
well it was a damn sight harder than tyson-mcbride and lewis was in with a guy that was in his prime whilst he himself was clearly in decline.lewis didn't look for a way out,he never did.
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:02
by barry
Tyson got hit plenty of times and still went on to win...Bruno hit him with a bomb and Tyson knocked him out...Razor Ruddock landed some punches, but Tyson went on to win...thats what fighters do...being hit and stunned by a punch is much different than being in a tough fight and no matter how hard you might try to make it seem like a tough fight...it isn't, wasn't and never will be, but I want to hear your response to what I last stated...
Benny Leonard comes immediately to mind in his bout against Jack Britton. Do you hold him accountable, or is that just something that you hold out for Tyson, and only Tyson? By your account, no way was Leonard great in your book!
Re: re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:02
by silkov
barry wrote:>>>Anyone who trys to foul his way out of fights etc has more than a bit of dog in him and that is not a mark of greatness in my book...<<<
Would you really like for me to go through the Hall of Fame and bring out all the greats who have fouled out of fights? Benny Leonard comes immediately to mind in his bout against Jack Britton. Do you hold him accountable, or is that just something that you hold out for Tyson, and only Tyson? By your account, no way was Leonard great in your book!
When did Leonard bite an opponents ear off? please let me know. Fouling in order to win a fight is one thing, but Tyson fouled to get himself out of fights!... big difference Barry!. Leonards fight against Britton is another matter, he was winning the fight when he landed the low blow, was it on purpose or not?... if he fouled out on purpoce it certainly wasn't because he was scared of Britton.
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:04
by barry
Again, you guys go reaching for the bouts where Tyson should have been retired for ten years...is that the best argument that you can come up with, the Tyson-McBride fight? The McBride bout has no bearing whatsoever on Tyson's career...it should never have happened as Tyson quit fighting many years before that bout!
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:06
by barry
>>>When did Leonard bite an opponents ear off? please let me know. Fouling in order to win a fight is one thing, but Tyson fouled to get himself out of fights!... big difference Barry!. Leonards fight against Britton is another matter, he was winning the fight when he landed the low blow, was it on purpose or not?... if he fouled out on purpoce it certainly wasn't because he was scared of Britton.<<<
Just what I thought...you only hold that out for Tyson while excusing others of the same behavior. That's very, very, very, very bias. I usually take what you say serious, but not anything about Tyson any more!
Re: re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:14
by silkov
barry wrote:Tyson got hit plenty of times and still went on to win...Bruno hit him with a bomb and Tyson knocked him out...Razor Ruddock landed some punches, but Tyson went on to win...thats what fighters do...being hit and stunned by a punch is much different than being in a tough fight and no matter how hard you might try to make it seem like a tough fight...it isn't, wasn't and never will be, but I want to hear your response to what I last stated...
Benny Leonard comes immediately to mind in his bout against Jack Britton. Do you hold him accountable, or is that just something that you hold out for Tyson, and only Tyson? By your account, no way was Leonard great in your book!
Are you saying that Leonards and Tysons career compare favourably with eachother??.... I find that very hard to believe. Leonard was world champion during a time when the division was full of talent, he retired undefeated champion, Tyson beat fighters that were mostly past their best... there is no comparison between the two men and I'm shocked and disapointed in you if you really belive there is. Do you compare Leonard being disq against Britton (he was actually disq for hitting Britton after he went down on one knee) with Tyson biting an opponents ear off???.... and what about the other times Tyson should have been disq when he tried to break opponents arms, pushed referees away and bit opponents nipples... not to mention biting opponents before fights and threatening to eat children.
Really it is disgraceful to mention Leonard and Tyson in the same breath... one was an all time great who was a credit to his sport the other was exposed as a bully and a coward and a cheat.
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:15
by dalek
barry-just because you don't agree that lennox came through some harder fights than mike don't make it untrue.so what if lennox made harder work of them than he should have,they were still hard fights where he had to show his mettle.the only fights i saw mike take his lumps like a man was against douglas(defeat and in his prime)and holy(defeat where neither were in their prime)and in the holy fight he never knew where he was after the sixth? round kd.lewis definitely proved he had a stronger mentality and bigger heart than tyson.
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:17
by barry
>>>Are you saying that Leonards and Tysons career compare favourably with eachother??<<<
It has nothing to do with how their career's compare...Leonard was a lightweight, Tyson a heavyweight...there's nothing comparable about it!
It's got to do with damning one fighter, while excusing others of the same type of behavior!
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:20
by barry
Besides, Benny Leonard is just the one name that immediately came to mind...I can dig up several more greats who have fouled out of fights...some just downright dirty, which "Mysterious" Billy Smith comes to mind, but there are several more!
Re: re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:20
by silkov
barry wrote:>>>When did Leonard bite an opponents ear off? please let me know. Fouling in order to win a fight is one thing, but Tyson fouled to get himself out of fights!... big difference Barry!. Leonards fight against Britton is another matter, he was winning the fight when he landed the low blow, was it on purpose or not?... if he fouled out on purpoce it certainly wasn't because he was scared of Britton.<<<
Just what I thought...you only hold that out for Tyson while excusing others of the same behavior. That's very, very, very, very bias. I usually take what you say serious, but not anything about Tyson any more!
Where did leonard behave the same? how is hitting you opponent when they are down, (something that many fighters have done without being disq and something Tyson himself did more than once!) equate with biting your opponents ear off?... or trying to break their arm??.... these are different things. If you can't see the difference between biting someones ear off or hitting them just after they have gone down then I don't know why?... I'd say its your attitude that is biased. Lots of fighters have hit low or hit an opponent when theyve gone down in the heat of the moment... but noone bites someones ear off TWICE! by accident!.
Remember Tyson did it twice!.... he knew he would be disqualified and thats what he wanted...
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:22
by barry
>>>barry-just because you don't agree that lennox came through some harder fights than mike don't make it untrue.<<<
Likewise, just because you think they were hard fights doesn't mean they were!
>>>lewis definitely proved he had a stronger mentality and bigger heart than tyson.<<<
He certainly had a stronger mentality, but he didn't have a bigger heart!
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:30
by barry
>>>he knew he would be disqualified and thats what he wanted...<<<
No, he just lost his mind, he didn't want to quit...hell he was doing pretty good up to that early point in the bout, he just plain and simply lost his mind, just like he did with Savarese, just like he did with Orlin Norris, just like he did with Botha, and just like he did in several other instances, it's not like it was new that Tyson was a lunatic. You try to talk like it was his only way out and that he did it because he was scared...he did it because he is a nut...nothing more, but as to the other point it doesn't matter how a fighter is DQ'd, he used foul tactics that are against the rules and just because one may seem worse to you it doesn't make it any better, or any more dogged than what any other fighter has ever done to get DQ'd and to excuse others and make excuses for them while continuing to damn Tyson is just plain wrong, and shows a bias to where I would never take anyone serious in that certain argument! You have to hold everyone accountable for their actions, you can't just overlook others and damn one just because you don't like him!
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:33
by silkov
I don't think it was a big heart that made Tyson bite Holyfield twice...
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:34
by silkov
Tell me another all time great who actually bit his opponent :x :x :x , twice too!...
re
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:37
by barry
>>>I don't think it was a big heart that made Tyson bite Holyfield twice...<<<
Please don't tell me that you are going to start trying to make up shit now? What did I say, I said that Tyson bit Holyfield twice because he is nuts...plain and simple...the exact same "nuts" that he has went over the edge with countless times before and after that incident...it's not like it was an isolated occurence!
Posted: 10 Feb 2006, 09:38
by silkov
Fouls are one thing, low blows, headbutts, elbows, part of boxing that most fighters accept, but biting crosses the line, it is a cowardly, abhorent act that is never justified in the ring, and it is also one of the few acts that is sure to get you disqualified. Had Tyson hit Evander low or headbutted him he wouldn't have been disqualified, the point is that he wanted out and this is why he did what he did...