BoxRec

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:im not impressed with calzaghe on film. he has horribly punching technique.

Yeh he's not pretty but hes effective, and that's all that matters.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:im not impressed with calzaghe on film. he has horribly punching technique.

You are insane.

He may not throw punches with classical technique but his speed, range, power and variety of shots are impossible not to appreciate.

JC has been accussed of being 'a slapper' since he was in the vest (Where he knocked em cold on the way to 3 consecutive ABA titles in ascending weight divisions.)

His punching technique is horribly effective, despite not being the most aesthetically pleasing.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:* calazaghe is becoming horribly overated because of his win over jeff "unproven overhyped" lacy


heres my top 6

1) Roy Jones jr
2) Joe Choynski
3) tommy burns
4) Nigel Benn
5) Eubank
6) Toney

Calzaghe has always been very highly rated by his fellow professionals.

Joe Choynski and Tommy Burns! There was no super middleweight division when they fought so how can you include them?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:im not impressed with calzaghe on film. he has horribly punching technique.

the worst punch technique i've seen from an elite fighter (currently) is Tarver. He has no jab now, merely lines up sloppy straight lefts and his right hook is like a girl with a handbag. At least Calzaghe gets some body weight behind his shots.

Spinks (Michael) had shite technique, the way his arms and legs seemed to all go in totally different directions reminds me of Jennifer Jason Leigh in The Hitcher - when she gets tied to two cars which pull in opposite directions and kill her. But Spinks was a great fighter.

Yes, and he was knocking the shite out of people at light heavyweight, and mullered Gerry Cooney too.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, and he was knocking the shite out of people at light heavyweight, and mullered Gerry Cooney too.

Eddie Davis really beat Spinks though, despite what the judges said.

Not seen the fight so couldn't comment.

However, untidy as Spinks looked, he could bang more than a bit, he was a bit like the Kanu of boxing, gangly, ungainly and apparently totally uncoordinated, but strangely effective.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:* calazaghe is becoming horribly overated because of his win over jeff "unproven overhyped" lacy

Very true.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Not seen the fight so couldn't comment.

However, untidy as Spinks looked, he could bang more than a bit, he was a bit like the Kanu of boxing, gangly, ungainly and apparently totally uncoordinated, but strangely effective.

i've got all the greats in my fight collection and i rate spinks right up there with anyone.

shame the tyson fight will always be mentioned when spinks name is brought up.

hitman_hatton1 wrote: i've got all the greats in my fight collection and i rate spinks right up there with anyone.

shame the tyson fight will always be mentioned when spinks name is brought up.

His herky jerky technique threw alot of fighters, and he always had 'The Spinx Jinx', his devistating right hand, to get other fighters out of there.

Top 10 Super-Middleweights Ever

1) Roy Jones Jr (the complete fighter)
2) Nigel Benn (the McClellan fight mean he has to be near top)
3) Joe Calzaghe
4) Chris Eubank
5) James Toney
6) Steve Collins
7) Sven Ottke
8) Marcus Beyer
9) Chong-Pal Park
10) Thulane Malinga (first 2-time champ in the division)

That is how I see it off the top of my head, taking all aspects into consideration.

best wishes

"T.M.K"

T.M.K wrote:Top 10 Super-Middleweights Ever

1) Roy Jones Jr (the complete fighter)
2) Nigel Benn (the McClellan fight mean he has to be near top)
3) Joe Calzaghe
4) Chris Eubank
5) James Toney
6) Steve Collins
7) Sven Ottke
8) Marcus Beyer
9) Chong-Pal Park
10) Thulane Malinga (first 2-time champ in the division)

That is how I see it off the top of my head, taking all aspects into consideration.

best wishes

"T.M.K"

You have Baek unrated. I think he lost to Jackson at 154 but had extreme weight making difficulty and went straight to 168. He was a heck of a puncher even at 168.

I'd make Baek top 10

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:* calazaghe is becoming horribly overated because of his win over jeff "unproven overhyped" lacy


heres my top 6

1) Roy Jones jr
2) Joe Choynski
3) tommy burns
4) Nigel Benn
5) Eubank
6) Toney

Yeah and you favoured Lacy to win.

Not just that win.

His talent, unbeaten record, handspeed, nice power and 18 defences is what rates him.

I rated Calzaghe high, ask the British guys here when they favoured Lacy.

im not impressed with calzaghe on film. he has horribly punching technique.

Yet they still can't touch him.

Marciano was a horribly dirty fighter and yet you rate him high.

KO Artist wrote:
You have Baek unrated. I think he lost to Jackson at 154 but had extreme weight making difficulty and went straight to 168. He was a heck of a puncher even at 168.

This is true Mr Artist,

however we were not asked to define wether we were rating them as fighters, punchers, overall, or simply as champions. For example, Calzaghe and Ottke are the 2 best champions the division has ever seen, whereas I think RJJ was best fighter fighter to weigh 12st that the world has ever seen. I have Baek unrated as I think the accomplishments of the men above him in the rankings are more worthy.

10) No-one had ever regained a version of the title, and although it is a slightly dubious reason to have in the top-10, it does mark Malinga as something of a first-timer.

9) Park was the divisions first champion, made 8 defences, then switched to the more prestigious WBA belt and continued his reign for what amounted to 10 Linear defences.

8) Beyer has held the most prestigous belt 3 times now, and his reign covers a number of years, and some former champions - to clear the WBC situation up a bit. He is the first-ever 3-time champ of the weight.

7) Ottke may well have had many dodgey decisions (I thought the Tate "headbutt" was no such thing, and Tate was robbed of the title), and he may barely have been able to crack an egg........but he was well managed, fought very regularly, retired undefeated, and made 20 defences of his crown - as well as unifying 2 belts. Technically he has done more than Calzaghe......

6) Steve Collins was a nice guy, a rough-n-ready fighter, exciting to watch, and hard-as-nails. I met him a few times (got to first-name terms) and he was a lovely chap - but too much of his career was "right time, right place" when it comes to his accolades. He is best remembered for his 4 victories over Benn/Eubank. Eubank was at the end of a rocky road and some think he should have got the nod over Collins in one of the fights (plus Collins had EVERYTHING in his advantage....venue, crowd, date, media etc), and Benn was finished when they fought - he just wanted the pay-day (and the first fight was a farcical ending really).

5) James Toney - just didn't spend long enough in the division or make enough defences to get any higher than 5th. If he hadn;t fought Jones (one fight too many at the weight) then maybe history would be kinder.....

4) Chris Eubank may well have had some questionable decisions, but again - like Ottke, no-one ripped his title away from him, he was very active (6 defences in one calendar year!), and he made many defences. He held Benn to a draw when Benn was red-hot, and if not for the Watson happenings, maybe he would have been even better.

3) If Calzaghe gets to 20 defences (in my opinion he should aim for 21, and get the other 2 major belts.......to literally DOMINATE the division like Hopkins did) then he could/should go higher. His acheivements are great, but he needs a little bit more to eclipse the other and become THE number one of all time.

2) Nigel Benn. Going abroad to win, defending 9 times, the victory over McClellan... almost number 1.

1) RJJ - simply amazing at this weight. I thought he'd never lose a bout as i saw him defend his title at 12st.


Just my opinion.

Best wishes,

"T.M.K"

T.M.K wrote:

KO Artist wrote:
You have Baek unrated. I think he lost to Jackson at 154 but had extreme weight making difficulty and went straight to 168. He was a heck of a puncher even at 168.

This is true Mr Artist,

however we were not asked to define wether we were rating them as fighters, punchers, overall, or simply as champions. For example, Calzaghe and Ottke are the 2 best champions the division has ever seen, whereas I think RJJ was best fighter fighter to weigh 12st that the world has ever seen. I have Baek unrated as I think the accomplishments of the men above him in the rankings are more worthy.

10) No-one had ever regained a version of the title, and although it is a slightly dubious reason to have in the top-10, it does mark Malinga as something of a first-timer.

9) Park was the divisions first champion, made 8 defences, then switched to the more prestigious WBA belt and continued his reign for what amounted to 10 Linear defences.

8) Beyer has held the most prestigous belt 3 times now, and his reign covers a number of years, and some former champions - to clear the WBC situation up a bit. He is the first-ever 3-time champ of the weight.

7) Ottke may well have had many dodgey decisions (I thought the Tate "headbutt" was no such thing, and Tate was robbed of the title), and he may barely have been able to crack an egg........but he was well managed, fought very regularly, retired undefeated, and made 20 defences of his crown - as well as unifying 2 belts. Technically he has done more than Calzaghe......

6) Steve Collins was a nice guy, a rough-n-ready fighter, exciting to watch, and hard-as-nails. I met him a few times (got to first-name terms) and he was a lovely chap - but too much of his career was "right time, right place" when it comes to his accolades. He is best remembered for his 4 victories over Benn/Eubank. Eubank was at the end of a rocky road and some think he should have got the nod over Collins in one of the fights (plus Collins had EVERYTHING in his advantage....venue, crowd, date, media etc), and Benn was finished when they fought - he just wanted the pay-day (and the first fight was a farcical ending really).

5) James Toney - just didn't spend long enough in the division or make enough defences to get any higher than 5th. If he hadn;t fought Jones (one fight too many at the weight) then maybe history would be kinder.....

4) Chris Eubank may well have had some questionable decisions, but again - like Ottke, no-one ripped his title away from him, he was very active (6 defences in one calendar year!), and he made many defences. He held Benn to a draw when Benn was red-hot, and if not for the Watson happenings, maybe he would have been even better.

3) If Calzaghe gets to 20 defences (in my opinion he should aim for 21, and get the other 2 major belts.......to literally DOMINATE the division like Hopkins did) then he could/should go higher. His acheivements are great, but he needs a little bit more to eclipse the other and become THE number one of all time.

2) Nigel Benn. Going abroad to win, defending 9 times, the victory over McClellan... almost number 1.

1) RJJ - simply amazing at this weight. I thought he'd never lose a bout as i saw him defend his title at 12st.


Just my opinion.

Best wishes,

"T.M.K"

Very well put, particularly your analysis of Collins, who in m opinion did not fight Benn at his prime. Benn had a ferocious style, he fought frequently, both home and away, against anyone who challanged and with immense venom. When he fought Collins he was at the end of the road and had been quitened by the tragedy of the Mclellan fight. When you watch Benn's fights and read his life story you realise what an ultra determined and violent fighter he was. Its interesting to speculate how Benn would have faired had he not had the upbringing he did, had he not carried the loss of his brother into his fighting lifestyle and career, had he not been scrapping from an early age with all types of street fighters much older than him in an almost symbolic war against those who threatened him, his race, culture and even those who were perhaps behind the death of his brother. Benn fought like an animal not simply due to training but due to his experiences since birth.

Marciano was a horribly dirty fighter and yet you rate him high.

the only fight which u watched of marciano was the cockell fight, which was marcianos worst fight. if u think that was marciano at his best, then u are horribly mistaken.

marciano was not a dirty fighter, he was rough

Should of been DQ'ed in it though.

He was a dirty fighter.

fist wrote:
Very well put, particularly your analysis of Collins, who in m opinion did not fight Benn at his prime. Benn had a ferocious style, he fought frequently, both home and away, against anyone who challanged and with immense venom. When he fought Collins he was at the end of the road and had been quitened by the tragedy of the Mclellan fight. When you watch Benn's fights and read his life story you realise what an ultra determined and violent fighter he was. Its interesting to speculate how Benn would have faired had he not had the upbringing he did, had he not carried the loss of his brother into his fighting lifestyle and career, had he not been scrapping from an early age with all types of street fighters much older than him in an almost symbolic war against those who threatened him, his race, culture and even those who were perhaps behind the death of his brother. Benn fought like an animal not simply due to training but due to his experiences since birth.

Thank you very much Mr Fist.

I also agree with your comments, and found Benn's autobiography a highly interesting read. I fully agree with your comments on his upbringing and his brother (although it is worth noting his parents were not Jamaican...who have the worst attitude/upbringing of their kids in my opinion where not much at all is "constructive" - and i say this from first hand experiences, not some un-educated opinion).

I also found it highly interesting when Benn was on the recent BBC3 phsycological profile. Hearing how much "releif, peace and happiness" he got while training - that it was the only time he felt truly happy - well what an eye-opener into how he got himself so pysched for his fights.

His brother's memory was a powerful tool for Mr Benn.

best wishes,

"T.M.K"

Benn's autobiog is one of the worst books on boxing I've read. Goes on about the inner peace he's gained after being born again and then in the revised edition there's an epilogue that admits he went off on one again! it's ok to read about his life etc, but who cares who he bashed up when in the army, what bird he was shagging blah blah, how fuckiing hard he was etc. nothing compared to some of the books i've read through, it's a great read if you've got a tea bag for a brain. reading that, he comes across as an eotistical materialistic poser. there are some photo spreads, one where he's standing there with mike mccallum. the caption says something like 'eventual heavyweight champion' - what's that all about

viciousmaussa wrote:Benn's autobiog is one of the worst books on boxing I've read...... it's a great read if you've got a tea bag for a brain.

Mr Maussa,

perhaps, if you try, you could be a little more insulting. As it happens, we were not commenting in the entire book, but more the interest in the psychological aspect of reading what makes the man "tick". It's a shame you didn't digest our chat before posting your remarks.

As it happens I agree there are far better autoboigraphies to read (Holmes, Norton......) but they are only good if you have a decent IQ and can take-in information more important that what you'll see by skim-reading.
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so you'd best give them a miss! :P

best wishes,

"T.M.K"

The one reason I cannot rate Mr. Jones at Super Mid is the lack of time at the top. You cannot judge a fighter on a guest list of six fighters. Indeed, Eric Lucas, coming off two losses within the last four fights, and an overweight, undermotivitated Toney.


Give me a Chris Eubank who fought the best, and fought with an arrogance and style that everybody wants and needs for the division. I mean Clazghe admits, that even at the end of Eubanks career he gave Joe his hardest fight.

I just cannot believe that Chris is not revered as he should be, though granted that big truck kind of gets annoying in brighton ( but he is always willing to get that pen out, I think he just wants to be loved)

While I wouldn't put Eubank at #1, to this day I believe he was the most gifted middle since Ray Robinson.

As James said: his attitude wasn't quite there.
He had the Sugar, but wanted to be the Bronx Bull.

T.M.K wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:Benn's autobiog is one of the worst books on boxing I've read...... it's a great read if you've got a tea bag for a brain.

Mr Maussa,

perhaps, if you try, you could be a little more insulting. As it happens, we were not commenting in the entire book, but more the interest in the psychological aspect of reading what makes the man "tick". It's a shame you didn't digest our chat before posting your remarks.

As it happens I agree there are far better autoboigraphies to read (Holmes, Norton......) but they are only good if you have a decent IQ and can take-in information more important that what you'll see by skim-reading.
.
.
.
.
.
.
so you'd best give them a miss! :P

best wishes,

"T.M.K"

as a book, it is pretty poor. it might be good for details on Benn's life, his relations with Warren etc, details of what drove him (the death of his brother, his identification with Big Bro figures) but it is completely trashy (i kicked the fuckk out of him, screwed her) and the whole spiritual thing comes off as insincere. it doesn't take a high IQ to fathom that out. i don't have to give an in depth analysis of your posts. if i want to give my opinion i can.

i think there was a quote on the back, by the Sun saying what a great read it is. there you have it, might be better for Daily Sport readers however, whose outlook on life might not extend much further than a nice pair of fried egg sized nipples and doggin' websites!

However, don't take my views the wrong way, I was not saying that you guys have a tea bag for a brain just cos you chatted about the Benn book.

agreed, the Holmes book is far better, although Larry papers over his lucky wins (Williams and Spoon) somewhat by saying after the Cooney fight, maybe his ambition went a bit. so is the Paul Briggs one, which is quite remarkable. same with the Lewis 'Mama's Boy.

The ultimate fighter's autobiography, that i would recommend to everyone who posts here, is 'Iron Circle: the life story of Dominiquie Vandenberg', which takes us into the shady past of the guy who was DiCaprio's knife fighting instructor for GANGS OF NEW YORK. Takes us into the brutal world of the Foreign Legion, freestyle karate, bare knuckle Thai boxing to the death. by the end you can really feel the guy who rushes in head first has learned lessons from his life

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 46-9930032

viciousmaussa wrote:

T.M.K wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:Benn's autobiog is one of the worst books on boxing I've read...... it's a great read if you've got a tea bag for a brain.

Mr Maussa,

perhaps, if you try, you could be a little more insulting. As it happens, we were not commenting in the entire book, but more the interest in the psychological aspect of reading what makes the man "tick". It's a shame you didn't digest our chat before posting your remarks.

As it happens I agree there are far better autoboigraphies to read (Holmes, Norton......) but they are only good if you have a decent IQ and can take-in information more important that what you'll see by skim-reading.
.
.
.
.
.
.
so you'd best give them a miss! :P

best wishes,

"T.M.K"

as a book, it is pretty poor. it might be good for details on Benn's life, his relations with Warren etc, details of what drove him (the death of his brother, his identification with Big Bro figures) but it is completely trashy (i kicked the fuckk out of him, screwed her) and the whole spiritual thing comes off as insincere. it doesn't take a high IQ to fathom that out. i don't have to give an in depth analysis of your posts. if i want to give my opinion i can.

i think there was a quote on the back, by the Sun saying what a great read it is. there you have it, might be better for Daily Sport readers however, whose outlook on life might not extend much further than a nice pair of fried egg sized nipples and doggin' websites!

However, don't take my views the wrong way, I was not saying that you guys have a tea bag for a brain just cos you chatted about the Benn book.

agreed, the Holmes book is far better, although Larry papers over his lucky wins (Williams and Spoon) somewhat by saying after the Cooney fight, maybe his ambition went a bit. so is the Paul Briggs one, which is quite remarkable. same with the Lewis 'Mama's Boy.

The ultimate fighter's autobiography, that i would recommend to everyone who posts here, is 'Iron Circle: the life story of Dominiquie Vandenberg', which takes us into the shady past of the guy who was DiCaprio's knife fighting instructor for GANGS OF NEW YORK. Takes us into the brutal world of the Foreign Legion, freestyle karate, bare knuckle Thai boxing to the death. by the end you can really feel the guy who rushes in head first has learned lessons from his life

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 46-9930032

To be honest I really enjoyed his book. Yep it is vernacular in its style, it delves into areas of his life which were not directly related to boxing, it provides accounts of many scraps outside of the ring...but I enjoyed it - I enjoyed reading HIS account of HIS life, gave me a fuller picture of the man.

As mentioned in previous posts, it gave a great insight into the source of his inspiration and fire. The psychology program was very revealing, not only in terms of how his childhood experiences were integtral to his success, but also how boxing provided the only solid form of pleasure and also escape from his demons. He clearly suffered from depression at times, hitting rock bottom when he tried to gas himself in his car.

Yes Benn has turned to God and fair enough you might not care to know that or indeed feel it is genuine, but what it did for him, was fill the hole left by boxing, it gave him faith, helped him deal with his demons, deal wth the death of his brother. It also allowed him to forgive himself and relieve the HUGE guilt he carried around for many things, in particular, his years of constant infidelity to his ex's.

Fair enough, some might not want to know about his life in such detail, but I enjoyed it and ultimately, it provided a massive insight into the BOXER and what made him tick.