BoxRec

Posted: **12 Dec 2018, 14:18**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 11:37 And had not fought in 17 months. And he still almost won. And then there is also that Klitschko had major weaknesses himself. And that is Joshua's biggest win. Bruno at least beat Coeztee and McCall. Nobody counts Bruno's win over over Bugner as much, yet somehow we are supposed to buy the win over Klitschko as a big deal.

Hype is an old story: I can reckon that any era might have had its overhyped boxers: great white hopes, great black hopes, and so on... Joshua (with his controversial Olympic gold) might be one of those overhyped champions, champion nevertheless, but overhyped.

A not-so-old story is the fact that boxers, nowadays, peak later than ever before: they train better and fight less often, so I assume that they also deteriorate later... cellular memory can last seven years, so until seven years past your prime, you could keep some of your explosive power, despite all.

All this to state two things:
1) Joshua may haven't reached his peak yet.
2) Klitschko, by the time he fought Joshua, was past his peak nevertheless.

Posted: **12 Dec 2018, 17:11**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:01 You are familiar with all these guys but not Bugner? Well there is a lot of him on Youtube, you should check out some of his matches when you get a chance some time. He is probably #2.

Lol, he was before my time, I've just never looked into him.

I'm only familar with Phil Scott from looking at Young Stribling and Larry Gains (he fought both), I've spent a while on the transitional period, and a bit on Rocky's and Louis. Though in truth, I was just mentioning some of them, I don't know a ton on Smith, Harvey, or Scott, (though I've some of what's out there on the two's) mostly just know of them, and I always like bringing up obscure stuff.

I'm helping some people research bareknuckle ATM.

Posted: **12 Dec 2018, 17:50**

BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 17:11
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:01 You are familiar with all these guys but not Bugner? Well there is a lot of him on Youtube, you should check out some of his matches when you get a chance some time. He is probably #2.
Lol, he was before my time, I've just never looked into him.

I'm only familar with Phil Scott from looking at Young Stribling and Larry Gains (he fought both), I've spent a while on the transitional period, and a bit on Rocky's and Louis. Though in truth, I was just mentioning some of them, I don't know a ton on Smith, Harvey, or Scott, (though I've some of what's out there on the two's) mostly just know of them, and I always like bringing up obscure stuff.

I'm helping some people research bareknuckle ATM.

You know? Bugner never really had a definitive fight.

Posted: **12 Dec 2018, 18:30**

The Bugner win means little because Bugner was unranked at that time and hadn't been a serious contender in years.
Not only does Anthony Joshua have more wins over ranked opponents (3 or 4) vs 2, he doesn't have all of Bruno's losses. It's too easy to call Anthony Joshua an ATG perhaps but he has already accomplished more than Bruno by any reasonable criteria.

A reasonable ranking would be
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Anthony Joshua
3. Tyson Fury
4. Tommy Farr
5. Joe Bugner
6. Frank Bruno
7. Dillian Whyte

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 09:46**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 18:30 The Bugner win means little because Bugner was unranked at that time and hadn't been a serious contender in years.
Not only does Anthony Joshua have more wins over ranked opponents (3 or 4) vs 2, he doesn't have all of Bruno's losses. It's too easy to call Anthony Joshua an ATG perhaps but he has already accomplished more than Bruno by any reasonable criteria.

A reasonable ranking would be
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Anthony Joshua
3. Tyson Fury
4. Tommy Farr
5. Joe Bugner
6. Frank Bruno
7. Dillian Whyte

With all due respect, by now I don't believe that Joshua could've beaten a 30-years-old McCall (I don't know wether McCall was or not perfectly fit for the Bruno fight for some reason...).

Joshua has great athletical assets (not necessarily greater than Bruno's), and a terrific one-two, but Bruno was faster and had a great jab. He wasn't less dirty than Joshua, clinching and hitting while holding, but I hold him in better consideration. Not that I particularly like any of the two...

Joshua, IMHO, has still too much to prove to be considered better than Bruno: in perspective, I could consider it: Joshua looks like a good lad after all, and he could make it, but I wouldn't let him jump on the parade until he hasn't reached 35 years old, at least.

This is a miserable era for heavyweights, so nowadays' champions might run the risk to get overhyped.

All that said, I actually must state I didn't like one bit good Joshua's performance at the 2012 Olympics... probably not all his fault, but a miserable show nevertheless.
English have again proved wrong their classic reputation (or stereotype?) of being fair players, after the 2018 football/soccer world cup, where the English national team behaved as dirty, provocative and anti-sportsmanlike as very few others.
It's a clear fall from grace from the three lions...

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 09:53**

The good old heydays of Lennox Lewis (raised in Canada... only a coincidence..?) are sorely missed.

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 11:40**

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 17:50
BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 17:11
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:01 You are familiar with all these guys but not Bugner? Well there is a lot of him on Youtube, you should check out some of his matches when you get a chance some time. He is probably #2.
Lol, he was before my time, I've just never looked into him.

I'm only familar with Phil Scott from looking at Young Stribling and Larry Gains (he fought both), I've spent a while on the transitional period, and a bit on Rocky's and Louis. Though in truth, I was just mentioning some of them, I don't know a ton on Smith, Harvey, or Scott, (though I've some of what's out there on the two's) mostly just know of them, and I always like bringing up obscure stuff.

I'm helping some people research bareknuckle ATM.
You know? Bugner never really had a definitive fight.

You want to expand on that?
He victims list list is as good as anyone except for Lewis.

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 13:25**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 11:40
oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 17:50
BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 17:11
Lol, he was before my time, I've just never looked into him.

I'm only familar with Phil Scott from looking at Young Stribling and Larry Gains (he fought both), I've spent a while on the transitional period, and a bit on Rocky's and Louis. Though in truth, I was just mentioning some of them, I don't know a ton on Smith, Harvey, or Scott, (though I've some of what's out there on the two's) mostly just know of them, and I always like bringing up obscure stuff.

I'm helping some people research bareknuckle ATM.
You know? Bugner never really had a definitive fight.
You want to expand on that?
He victims list list is as good as anyone except for Lewis.

He didn't have any real bout that defines him. No Lewis/Holyfield or even Lewis /washed up Tyson; And his victims list, as you say, is not very impressive. His losses all have the big names, for the most part, during his prime.

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 16:39**

I don't know; is it the wins over Holyfield and Tyson the ones that "defines" Lewis"?
Those were the biggest names that he beat, but really are minor factors when rating him.

What "defining wins" do the rest of these guys have? There are some nice wins but nothing that really leaps out at you.

Outside of Lewis, none of these guys are legends. Bugner had several nice wins which are as impressive as what anyone else (besides Lewis has)
Being competitive with Joe Frazier is more impressive than what anyone else has ever done.

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 17:04**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 16:39 I don't know; is it the wins over Holyfield and Tyson the ones that "defines" Lewis"?
Those were the biggest names that he beat, but really are minor factors when rating him.

What "defining wins" do the rest of these guys have? There are some nice wins but nothing that really leaps out at you.

Outside of Lewis, none of these guys are legends. Bugner had several nice wins which are as impressive as what anyone else (besides Lewis has)
Being competitive with Joe Frazier is more impressive than what anyone else has ever done.

Fitz beat Corbett, Maher, Sharkey and Ruhlin. Fury beat Wlad.

Posted: **13 Dec 2018, 22:11**

A competitive loss to Joe Frazier isn't anywhere close to what Joshua has accomplished. Joshua has beaten actual ranked contenders and has been generally considered the best heavyweight in the world for over 2 years. A good loss obviously doesn't match actual wins over highly ranked opponents. Who did Bugner beat?.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 01:03**

On a UK based site I'm staying out of this one.....lol

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 11:57**

I guess if we count Fitz as British, maybe he should be number 2.
Joshua has accomplished very little so far. Sorry, Povetkin doesn't cut it. Would be nice to see him stop fighting senior citizens.
Fury beat an old Klitschko and nobody else.
Neither Fury or Joshua should be considered top 10 at this point.

Bugner looked a lot better in losing to Frazier than Joshua and Fury did in beating Klitschko.
He also beat Cooper and Ellis. When he was well past his best, he still was able to beat Greg Page.

Yes we can poke holes in the opponents that Bugner beat. However, you can do that with anyone that these others guys beat as well. Bugner has to pretty close to the top.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 14:00**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 11:57 I guess if we count Fitz as British, maybe he should be number 2.
Joshua has accomplished very little so far. Sorry, Povetkin doesn't cut it. Would be nice to see him stop fighting senior citizens.
Fury beat an old Klitschko and nobody else.
Neither Fury or Joshua should be considered top 10 at this point.

Bugner looked a lot better in losing to Frazier than Joshua and Fury did in beating Klitschko.
He also beat Cooper and Ellis. When he was well past his best, he still was able to beat Greg Page.

Yes we can poke holes in the opponents that Bugner beat. However, you can do that with anyone that these others guys beat as well. Bugner has to pretty close to the top.

My issue with Bugner is that it seemed (and I followed his fights in the seventies) he always seemed to fight to lose against the names during his prime. Did just enough to lose is better said. I always thought he was too cerebral for a really successful boxing career.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 16:43**

Well he did lose to Ali twice and Frazier. Also Lyle and Shavers. The Lyle fight was close enough where you could argue that he should have got the decision. You also have to take into consideration the era in which he fought. Sometimes the #8 or #9 guy in one era would have been the #1 or #2 guy in another. This is what happened to Bugner.

He wasn't a legend. He fought a lot and occasionally lost to someone he should not have. However he did beat Ellis. He did beat Cooper. He beat Mac Foster. Way past this prime, he beat Tillis, Bey and Page in consecutive fights. He proved that he was on the next level. Watch his fights and you can tell he had ability. He could box, had some power, had a good chin. For a big guy he moved well.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 17:00**

I don't think Ellis or Cooper were even ranked in the top ten when they fought Bugner. Ellis was way past it by that point and hadn't scored a good win in years.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 17:14**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 17:00 I don't think Ellis or Cooper were even ranked in the top ten when they fought Bugner. Ellis was way past it by that point and hadn't scored a good win in years.

Cooper too was WAY past his prime by like 7 years.

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 17:52**

Peaking Bruno beating Joshua? Aj has like all the belts minus 1. Bruno was found wanting at the top level. Any version of Frank has zero chance against AJ and I grew up watching all Bruno's fights and was a big fan.

quote=Jacopodb post_id=5060247 time=1544625692 user_id=294641]

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:50
cfang wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:45 Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.
Including active fighters?:
Lewis
Bruno
Fury
Joshua
Farr
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Haye
London

That's a fair list: by now, I believe that Joshua would take a beating from a peaking Bruno: he would give Joshua the lesson of his life, the one Klitschko couldn't give him because too old...
[/quote]

Posted: **14 Dec 2018, 17:54**

cfang wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 17:52 Peaking Bruno beating Joshua? Aj has like all the belts minus 1. Bruno was found wanting at the top level. Any version of Frank has zero chance against AJ and I grew up watching all Bruno's fights and was a big fan.

quote=Jacopodb post_id=5060247 time=1544625692 user_id=294641]
oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:50
cfang wrote: ↑11 Dec 2018, 17:45 Aj is streets ahead of Bruno. Bruno's best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Lewis, AJ, fury, farr, bugner, bruno, haye, cooper.
Including active fighters?:
Lewis
Bruno
Fury
Joshua
Farr
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Haye
London
That's a fair list: by now, I believe that Joshua would take a beating from a peaking Bruno: he would give Joshua the lesson of his life, the one Klitschko couldn't give him because too old...

[/quote]

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 10:30**

cfang wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 17:52 Peaking Bruno beating Joshua? Aj has like all the belts minus 1. Bruno was found wanting at the top level. Any version of Frank has zero chance against AJ and I grew up watching all Bruno's fights and was a big fan.

best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.

Points of view: I was never a fan of anyone or anything, not even of my favourite food.
Let me set this fandom issue straight: when I realised I was no fan and had no idols, I started thinking there was something wrong with me, and I could've just not accepted I was a fan like everyone else, so I googled "people with no idols", and a pretty little nice quote from Ayrton Senna came out, going more or less like this: "I have no idols: I admire hard work, dedication and competence"... good enough for me.

Why did I do the digression right above? To state that fandom might be deceitful, one way or another: I had an argument with a deluded Juventus and former Zidane fan, arguing that good old Totti (which never reached Zidane's technical peaks) was better than his former idol, raving about Zidane not possessing a good-enough shot, probably deluded by Zidane leaving Juventus for Real Madrid or so...

All that said, I still believe that Bruno's opposition was more dangerous than Joshua's, being Bruno's era's heavyweight scene more competitive in every aspect.
Bruno was also clearly faster with a mean jab and enough reach (probably the same of Joshua) to keep him at distance.

Joshua has never faced an opponent with the assets of Bruno. Old Klitschko wasn't nearly as dangerous as a peaking Bruno, and that's by far the strongest opposition Joshua ever faced.
So, please... Joshua is the most overhyped fighter I can remember, even more overhyped than Bernard Hopkins or GGG, both still p4p obviously better than Joshua.

Sorry for writing so much, but I had to back up my arguments.

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 10:43**

"I was a big fan of [...]" is always a less-than-valid argument to say a euphemism... fans can quickly turn the opposite if deluded somehow, becoming fierce detractors.
Just my two cents to get a grip with.

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 11:36**

Jacopodb wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 10:30
cfang wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 17:52 Peaking Bruno beating Joshua? Aj has like all the belts minus 1. Bruno was found wanting at the top level. Any version of Frank has zero chance against AJ and I grew up watching all Bruno's fights and was a big fan.

best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.
Points of view: I was never a fan of anyone or anything, not even of my favourite food.
Let me set this fandom issue straight: when I realised I was no fan and had no idols, I started thinking there was something wrong with me, and I could've just not accepted I was a fan like everyone else, so I googled "people with no idols", and a pretty little nice quote from Ayrton Senna came out, going more or less like this: "I have no idols: I admire hard work, dedication and competence"... good enough for me.

Why did I do the digression right above? To state that fandom might be deceitful, one way or another: I had an argument with a deluded Juventus and former Zidane fan, arguing that good old Totti (which never reached Zidane's technical peaks) was better than his former idol, raving about Zidane not possessing a good-enough shot, probably deluded by Zidane leaving Juventus for Real Madrid or so...

All that said, I still believe that Bruno's opposition was more dangerous than Joshua's, being Bruno's era's heavyweight scene more competitive in every aspect.
Bruno was also clearly faster with a mean jab and enough reach (probably the same of Joshua) to keep him at distance.

Joshua has never faced an opponent with the assets of Bruno. Old Klitschko wasn't nearly as dangerous as a peaking Bruno, and that's by far the strongest opposition Joshua ever faced.
So, please... Joshua is the most overhyped fighter I can remember, even more overhyped than Bernard Hopkins or GGG, both still p4p obviously better than Joshua.

Sorry for writing so much, but I had to back up my arguments.

Real nice post Jacob. I agree on Bruno over AJ, and really loved the fandom points you make.

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 14:17**

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 11:36
Jacopodb wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 10:30
cfang wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 17:52 Peaking Bruno beating Joshua? Aj has like all the belts minus 1. Bruno was found wanting at the top level. Any version of Frank has zero chance against AJ and I grew up watching all Bruno's fights and was a big fan.

best wins are against a tourist version of coetzee and the messed up macall. He was well managed and his best fight was no doubt against Lewis. Aj is a class above Bruno.
Points of view: I was never a fan of anyone or anything, not even of my favourite food.
Let me set this fandom issue straight: when I realised I was no fan and had no idols, I started thinking there was something wrong with me, and I could've just not accepted I was a fan like everyone else, so I googled "people with no idols", and a pretty little nice quote from Ayrton Senna came out, going more or less like this: "I have no idols: I admire hard work, dedication and competence"... good enough for me.

Why did I do the digression right above? To state that fandom might be deceitful, one way or another: I had an argument with a deluded Juventus and former Zidane fan, arguing that good old Totti (which never reached Zidane's technical peaks) was better than his former idol, raving about Zidane not possessing a good-enough shot, probably deluded by Zidane leaving Juventus for Real Madrid or so...

All that said, I still believe that Bruno's opposition was more dangerous than Joshua's, being Bruno's era's heavyweight scene more competitive in every aspect.
Bruno was also clearly faster with a mean jab and enough reach (probably the same of Joshua) to keep him at distance.

Joshua has never faced an opponent with the assets of Bruno. Old Klitschko wasn't nearly as dangerous as a peaking Bruno, and that's by far the strongest opposition Joshua ever faced.
So, please... Joshua is the most overhyped fighter I can remember, even more overhyped than Bernard Hopkins or GGG, both still p4p obviously better than Joshua.

Sorry for writing so much, but I had to back up my arguments.

Real nice post Jacob. I agree on Bruno over AJ, and really loved the fandom points you make.

It's always nice to meet common ground, Oogie.

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 16:46**

I think Klitschko would have to be favored over Bruno pretty heavily.

Posted: **15 Dec 2018, 16:48**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2018, 16:46 I think Klitschko would have to be favored over Bruno pretty heavily.

True, but Wlad isn't British.

BoxRec

top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: top 10 british heavyweights of all time