BoxRec

er well he failed the test, so wheres the 'nonsense' that I'm talking???.
I'm also talking in a reasonable manner even though you're blowing your gaskets and being abusive as usual.

>>>er well he failed the test, so wheres the 'nonsense' that I'm talking???.<<<

As I have stated two, or three times already...Jones did not fail the WBA urine screen, nor did he fail the WBC screen...just "supposedly" the part of the IBF...what the A sample? And due to the fact that a false positive is the mostly likely result, if in fact the IBF are not just plain lying, which is certainly possible when considering that the only two people who ever discussed the supposed test were Muhammad and Richard Hall's attorney...very suspicious and certainly a red light for any one with any sense. I've brought out some pretty strong evidence which pretty much kills the IBF claim, yet you continue to say...the IBF, the IBF...so what...the WBC and WBA...the WBC is no different than the IBF, but the WBA is the most important as they were the org who did everything for the bout and Jones tested negative in the WBA urine screens!


>>>I'm also talking in a reasonable manner even though you're blowing your gaskets and being abusive as usual.<<<

Oh yeah...you're the most reasonable person on the net...LOL!!! I don't deny what I say, nor do I try to pretend that I am just an innocent by-stander...I own up to all I say and I never try to hide, or deny anything!

>>>Do you have any proof that the IBF result was a false-positive?<<<

Just as much evidence as you have that it wasn't a false positive. It's just common sense when you have one "supposed" positive against around five, or six negatives that one positive is almost certainly a false positive...now if there were no other tests then there might be something to it, but that's not how it is...there is a lot to go against it!!!

>>>Also, the IBF rules don't involve sending the sample to a toxicologist. They involve a "B" sample, which Jones passed.<<<

That is the typical thing that is done with a test that is in question...that is unless it is just a load of bullshit to begin with!!! Any organization, group or anything...whenever there is conflicting tests the results get sent to a toxicologists to determine exactly what is and what isn't and the fact that the IBF did not do that is very, very suspicious...especially since Jones had a negative result ro counter the positive...as I said...if it was in fact a positive and the IBF did not lie, then it's a false positive, or the odds of it being a false positive are around 90 to 10!!!

No it's the other way around numb-nuts!!!

Nooooo...The WBA and WBC tests were given at the same time the IBF test was.

>>>Every test James Toney has had has come back negative except one. Would you consider his test a false-positive?<<<

I certainly would if all the other tests were taken at the same time yet provided negative results...I would fell the same way for any other fighters as well...even Vitali!!! It's not just because I'm a big Jones of fan...there is just too much evidence that contradicts what the IBF, alone, claim!

Since I presented some proof that Roy did indeed take steroids, I'd like to see the proof countering this argument instead of all this speculation.

Anyway like I said the proof is there for everyone, if you choose to ignore it then thats fine but when highly respected magazines such as "The Ring" publish articles supporting the case that he was a steroid user and with the actual letter from the IBF (which I did not think you knew of TBH) I'll believe he was a steroid user, the end.

lvlarc_uk wrote:Since I presented some proof that Roy did indeed take steroids, I'd like to see the proof countering this argument instead of all this speculation.

Anyway like I said the proof is there for everyone, if you choose to ignore it then thats fine but when highly respected magazines such as "The Ring" publish articles supporting the case that he was a steroid user and with the actual letter from the IBF (which I did not think you knew of TBH) I'll believe he was a steroid user, the end.

You've done an excellent job. As I have said you can't just jump up and own weights without some kind of help. Tommy Morrison came out and said that there was a lot of drug abuse in the sport.

The sanctioning bodies do their best to prevent the star names getting caught out. I'd rather it was out in the open.

I'm not really interested in attacking Jones, and defending him is just ridiculous.
What I'd like to know is how do people here take this kind of drug use into account when matching up/ranking old timers and contemporary fighters?

I think it is pretty clear about the WBC and especially the WBA....after all the WBA was the org of the fight...as the IBF president stated herself...and the fact that no positive tests have ever been commented on by the WBC, or more importantly are evidence enough, but if you want me to try to dig up one statement where someone claims that Jones didn't use steroids...well that should be pretty easy!!!!

Would you also like for me to produce evidence about how crooked the IBF has been in they're years...or do you accept that as FACT?


>>>I'm not really interested in attacking Jones, and defending him is just ridiculous.<<<

It's not ridiculous when there is no solid proof to back the claim!!!


>>>What I'd like to know is how do people here take this kind of drug use into account when matching up/ranking old timers and contemporary fighters?<<<

That is a good question, which I would assume some would say that more modern fighters are just superior and if they were then performance enhaning drugs may very well be the reason, but I don't see anything superior about more modern fighters...they are not as tough...they are not in as good of condition and when it comes down to it only a select few today have the guts to match the earlier fighters!

barry wrote:I think it is pretty clear about the WBC and especially the WBA....after all the WBA was the org of the fight...as the IBF president stated herself...and the fact that no positive tests have ever been commented on by the WBC, or more importantly are evidence enough, but if you want me to try to dig up one statement where someone claims that Jones didn't use steroids...well that should be pretty easy!!!!

Would you also like for me to produce evidence about how crooked the IBF has been in they're years...or do you accept that as FACT?


>>>I'm not really interested in attacking Jones, and defending him is just ridiculous.<<<

It's not ridiculous when there is no solid proof to back the claim!!!


>>>What I'd like to know is how do people here take this kind of drug use into account when matching up/ranking old timers and contemporary fighters?<<<

That is a good question, which I would assume some would say that more modern fighters are just superior and if they were then performance enhaning drugs may very well be the reason, but I don't see anything superior about more modern fighters...they are not as tough...they are not in as good of condition and when it comes down to it only a select few today have the guts to match the earlier fighters!

But, Barry,

There's no proof that he didn't take them either. There's an obvious suspiscion. I don't think we can make a definite conclusion either way. Drug abuse is rife in sports. An already fully developed Jones put on 20 pounds of muscle between Woods and Ruiz, I don't know how he did it. I don't see what the IBF has to gain from the test, I only see that it has something to lose. Then again, singling out Roy is a bit harsh...

I almost think it would be better if drugs were just allowed. Let them take what they want and get on with it. At least then we'd have a better idea of what's what.

>>>There's no proof that he didn't take them either. There's an obvious suspiscion. I don't think we can make a definite conclusion either way.<<<

I have no issues with that...in fact that's pretty much what I stated at the beginning...and being that our system of belief here in the States is "innocent until proven guilty," then a person should be given the exact same treatment as anyone else would recieve!


>>>An already fully developed Jones put on 20 pounds of muscle between Woods and Ruiz, I don't know how he did it.<<<

With the kind of money that people like Jones has getting one of the very best nutritionist's in the world is not a hard thing to do and with the kind of help that money buys...putting on 20 lbs is not difficult, but then again...Jones did not put on 20 pounds...Jones always weighed in right at 175 and by fight time he was almost always 180+...he weighed in for the Ruiz bout at 193, but I don't recall what his ring weight was at the time of the fight, but I do know that his usually every day walk around weight was almost always right around 185...even when he was fighting at middleweight.

>>>I don't see what the IBF has to gain from the test<<<

Really? Firstly a grudge against a certain fighter...it's certainly happened many times before and also I see all kinds of publicity by such a claim, which the publicity never happened and being that it didn't it just shows who and how many of the boxing community actually took the claim serious! Lastly, the IBF...along with Hall had a lot of fine money to gain from such a claim and being that the only people who ever discussed the issue was the IBF pres and Richard Hall's attorney...well, if that is not suspicious...then what is two test...one a positive and one negative?

If the IBF had been the ruling body for the Hall fight then it would have a little stronger claim, but due to the fact that the WBA was the ruling org...the IBF honestly just did not really matter...not to mention that they had one positive and one negative...which is so, so very common with false positives!

Let's also not forget that behind the allegations was Don King, who was Hall's promoter at the time!!! And for the record...in the same fight Richard Hall was stated as testing positive for steroids as well!

Did Jones use steroids...possibly, but based on the actual evidence surrounding the Hall fight from all orgs it is highly unlikely and as I stated earlier...innocent until proven guilty!

Below is an interview with Hall, who was the first to make the claim!

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-ne ... erview.php

Hall did test positive as well!

Here is another good interview, which claims that they both in fact did test positive, but that it was not a certain, unquestionable result and that "ripped fuel" may have indeed been responsible, but to show the non-bias that seems to lack in others I just want to present this interview!

http://www.braggingrightscorner.com/sarajhall2.html

I've also e-mailed the WBA and WBC for results of the drug tests for the Jones-Hall fight!

I also found that Ring Magazine talks about it in they're January 2004...I'm not certain if I have this issue, but if anyone else does how about posting the article.

I've also found claims about Mosley, Virgil hill and Bernard Hopkins using steroids!

barry wrote:I also found that Ring Magazine talks about it in they're January 2004...I'm not certain if I have this issue, but if anyone else does how about posting the article.

I've also found claims about Mosley, Virgil hill and Bernard Hopkins using steroids!

The difference between being number 10 in the world or number 1 or 2 in terms of earning potential is really quite big. I can see that everyone would be scrambling for an advantage.

90 years ago...

The Syracuse Herald, January 16, 1916.

LEWIS SAYS HE USES MEDICINE TO REDUCE

New York, Jan. 15.--Ted Lewis, the sensational English fighter, who claims the welterweight title on account of his recent victory over Willie Ritchie, says a secret medicine invented by Alec Goodman, his trainer, makes it possible for him to reduce weight on short notice without losing strength.

Lewis is a weight freak. He started the fistic world several times by going from 135 pounds for one bout to 145 for another and back to 135 for a third match in less than two weeks. He also announced he would fight any man in the world from 135 pounds to 158 pounds.

Putting on and taking off weight has ruined some of the greatest fighters the ring ever produced. Mike Gibbons has been bothered several times by being forced to take off too much weight. Reducing drove Joe Gans, the great negro fighter into consumption, which resulted in his death.

Lewis claims that by using the medicine Goodman invented he can reduce as he pleases and retain all his strength and energy. He has proven several times he can accomplish wonders along this line. Goodman refuses to tell what the "dope" is.

Lewis is the only fighter who carries a regular trainer. He and Goodman struck up partnership in England five years ago and Lewis has had him with him in all his matches in England, Australia and the United States.

Goodman watches the physical condition of the scrapper a good deal as a mother watches, her baby. He has made a study of food values and supervises selection or all the food the scrapper eats.

Lewis aspires to hold three titles, heavyweight, welterweight and middleweight, the limits ranging from 135 to 158 pounds. He depends on Goodman's secret tonic to make it possible for him to accomplish this freak performance.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Let's suppose that his career is finished, and we can look at his entire career and truly judge Roy Jones, Jr. on his accomplishments in the ring and see where he ranks over all as a fighter.

-Won titles in four different weight classes: MW, SMW, LHW and HW.

-Greatest wins: Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Mike McCallum and John Ruiz. Ironically enough all four victories were at different weight classes and all four were in his debut at the weight.

-Four career losses: Montell Griffin [robbery, but avenged]. The others were late in his career, against Antonio Tarver [once by KO] and Glenn Johnson [also by KO], never avenged.

-Robbed of an Olympic Gold Medal in 1988 but was named the 'Games Most Outstanding Boxer'.

-Defenses: 5 at SMW, 1 at MW, 11 at LHW [3x's champion at the weight].

-Lack of competitive matches at LHW hurt his legacy*

-His unwillingness to take a risk also hurts his legacy*

-The only two instances in his career that he really took a gamble were the Tarver fights and the lone fight at HW against John Ruiz.

-Amazing hand and foot speed

-Power in both hands in the lighter weight classes


*He never fought Graciano Rocchigiani, Micheal Nunn, Buster Douglas or Dariusz Michaczewski [WBO LHW champion]. Nor did he really make a lasting impression on the HW ranks, though rumors of having bouts with a faded Evander Holyfield [another example of not willing to take a risk] was in the works, only to go back to LHW.

Based on all that, let's just say Jones could have had the chance to have defended his LHW title against the likes of Billy Conn, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Ezzard Charles and Michael Spinks...would he? Or would he have just ducked them, like he did with everyone who could actually fight back?

Another thing to wrap your mind around, where does he rank on the ATG LHW or even in a Pound-Per-Pound sense? Sure he 'cleaned' the LHW division, but he wasn't exactly facing opponents of great stature either.

Very good post, he is one of the best pound for pound of all times, top ten(i expect missiles now) and history will judge him better. The same guys frying him now, will be carrying his jocktrap amd ranking him high 20 years from now because they'd want to look knowledgeable. Jones is facing the same crap Schumacher is suffering, people choosing to be blind to the facts in front of them. Greatness is not judged on feeling, it is judged on facts.

>>>Tarver isn't particularly good; he just happened to get in the ring with Jones when Jones was starting to get old, and he just happened to close his eyes and throw a huge bomb that landed on Jones. When you close your eyes and swing for the fences, it almost never works. Against someone like Jones?<<<

That is very true! Some people will claim that there are no lucky punches, but that's just silly reasoning...there are a lot of lucky punches and the one that Tarver landed that chilled Jones was as lucky a punch as I have ever seen...even more so than the shot that Foreman landed on Moorer and as Dec stated...it almost never works against a fighter like Jones!