I am not disagreeing really with Tyson's standing. Whilst a great fighter, he was not a great champion, as his prime was far too brief. However, during that Prime, he was an incredibly dangerous fighter with incredible physical tools.Terry D wrote:I've seen it recently and the stand-out is Douglas watching the count. He could do no more. Tyson had time to turn the fight off the back of this but was, as would always be the case, out-manned as Douglas foughtback well in the next round.jamesmcdonnell wrote:The round ended not long after the knockdown otherwise Douglas would never have finished the fight.. Douglas could barely even see straight as he hauled himself off the canvas with drool hanging out of his mouth. It wasn't Douglas' fault the count was slow, but neither was he in any state to get up sooner. I used to share your point of view until I rewatched the fight a few months back Terry. Douglas was utterly fecked.Terry D wrote: I disagree. All Douglas could do was pay mind to the count that was presented. He did this and got up at the right moment so any error went out of his hand. If Tyson has turned the fight so how did Mike end-up not taking advantage?
Douglas went down and got up to slap the living piss out of Tyson. Mike went down, then got up to hide behind his promoter who tried to politrick the title back to Tyson.
Lots of fighters are physically gifted but boxing is as much a mental sport and Tyson would be hammered by guys like Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Frazier, Louis, Liston (who would scare the shit out of Tyson) and especially Holmes, when Holmes was in his pomp.
Even Tyson's winning rematch, Ruddock, showed his as a fighter incapable of learning from the first bout.
Cus or no Cus he was always going to struggle and fell at the hurdle of faded and flawed fighters. Imagine him going into the Bowe-Holyfield-Lewis age? He'd have been hammered even more thoroughly.
Tyson was already a lesser fighter by the time of the Douglas fight, his peak came and went within a few years, it was the nature of his psyche to implode and reject what made him great for that brief period.
Interesting you mention Liston, I've wondered about this fight myself. My dad, who lived through the Louis and Liston eras, and is a big boxing fan, with a pretty good instinctive take, said he thought Tyson would have shocked Liston, himself a bully, with this speed, power and accuracy.
Not saying I agree per se.
A few year peak makes a fighter even less a great. Could be that his style was solved in his peak and he was rendered ineffectual. Longevity is not to be sniffed at. Look at how Holmes and Foreman lasted.
I think a good jab beats Tyson's speed and Liston could also left-hook off it brilliantly. Prior to his title he was the finest fighter the division had seen, in my opinion, and it was no coincidence that he was seen as invincible. He really was that good pre-title and wiped the floor with Patternson, who was still useful later on, twice with only a 4-second gap, expounded by more counting time.
Tyson's head movement against Douglas was virtually non-existent, he had already abandoned Cus D'amato's system, without which, he was a very gifted, but essentially orthodox heavyweight with speed and power in spades.
Liston had probably peaked as you say before becoming champion, as he was held away from getting a shot by Carbo and his boys.
