BoxRec

Prizefighter is a bloody excellent idea for getting arm chairs interested again.

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:Prizefighter is a bloody excellent idea for getting arm chairs interested again.

Agreed...

If there was some way to do TUF show like you suggested yesterday, that would be great too - but there's just too many obstacles in the way of that one, for now anyway...

EddieShredder wrote:the fact it is kicking Boxing's ass in terms of marketing, promotion, and popularity.

is this a fact? i don't think it is.

lowersmiths wrote:

EddieShredder wrote:the fact it is kicking Boxing's ass in terms of marketing, promotion, and popularity.

is this a fact? i don't think it is.

In all streams of revenue it is. If you want to ignore the facts I have posted, that's your choice. We can't make you listen.

lowersmiths wrote:

EddieShredder wrote:the fact it is kicking Boxing's ass in terms of marketing, promotion, and popularity.

is this a fact? i don't think it is.

The following is a brief breakdown of how well the UFC and HBO Boxing did in 2007 by way of PPV numbers. Obviously the popularity of both sports runs deeper than simply pay-per-view figures. I couldn’t locate a list of HBO numbers as far as each event went, but you have to take into account that De La Hoya and Mayweather are probably responsible for a majority of the PPV buys. Similarly, Rampage and Chuck had a lot to do with boosting the UFC numbers.

The UFC events combined for 4,885,000 views totaling $194.5 million. UFC 70 & 75 were SPIKE events. Boxing did 4,795,000 PPV’s for $239.75.

UFC 67 - Silva v. Lutter - 400,000
UFC 68 - Slyvia v. Couture - 540,000
UFC 69 - St. Pierre v. Serra - 400,000
UFC 71 - Liddell v. Jackson II - 675,000
UFC 72 - Franklin v. Okami - 200,000
UFC 73 - Ortiz v. Evans - 425,000
UFC 74 - Couture v. Gonzaga - 520,000
UFC 76 - Liddell v. Jardine - 475,000
UFC 77 - Franklin v. Silva II - 325,000
UFC 78 - Evans v. Bisbing - 325,000
UFC 79 - Liddell v. Silva - 600,000

HBO Boxing - 4,795,000 (total) among main events including:
Mayweather v. Hatton
Cotto v. Mosley
Pacquiao v. Barrera
Hopkins v. Wright
De La Hoya v. Mayweather
Cotto v. Judah

So, more PPV buys in 2007 for UFC.... only just mind, but as the article say - majority of boxing buys were for DLH-PBF. Boxing made more revenue, but less buys.

The marketing and promotion of UFC is on a different level. Just the amount of money generated by merchandise alone is enough to show you that....

It's not a pissing contest anyway... but to argue that UFC is a "fad" etc, is just rediculous.

Like Eddie says, this isn't a pissing contest. At least some of us appreciate that MMA is a threat on Boxing's revenue (especially with the #1 PPV draw now looking a forlorn figure), the sport we all love desperately needs a revitalisation of sorts.

Hopefully greater minds than us can recognise this threat, and turn it into something positive for boxing.

the biggest problem in boxing is the sanctioning bodies and their fake belts. kill them and everyone will know what is going on again.

be interesting to see what happens with the ufc numbers as the usa's population changes towards hispanic.

hatton 56,000 fans in manchester, how many was calzaghe v kessler? did the ufc get close anywhere?

Right ok can we finally leave this Thread alone as its a completely pointless debate

To me its not or never will be a question of Boxing vs MMA

Boxing is so clearly the superior sport, i could challenge alot of what has been said here regarding the merits of UFC but really can't be bothered!

The only good thing about this thread is that it has opened my eyes to certain posters here and i'd just hope they move on soon!

Boxing is not in decline and all its problems are self made, nothing to do with any other sport!

exittored wrote:Right ok can we finally leave this Thread alone as its a completely pointless debate

You're more than welcome to not click on it again, but with the greatest of respect - who the f@ck are you to tell people what they should or shouldn't debate?

Dude i didnt say you couldn't debate it, i just said there was no point in debating it!

They are 2 totally different sports with totally different histories, we may as well debate Boxing vs Dodgeball while we're at it too

exittored wrote:Dude i didnt say you couldn't debate it, i just said there was no point in debating it!

They are 2 totally different sports with totally different histories, we may as well debate Boxing vs Dodgeball while we're at it too

Firstly, apologies for the rather short response a minute ago... my bad... one of them days

Secondly... the whole boxing vs mma debate can get very tiresome, granted - but there's a lot to be gained by debating what boxing can learn from certain aspects of mma.

Even if you don't appreciate the fighting itself, there is a lot boxing can learn from the promotion, and general setup of the UFC.

exittored wrote:Right ok can we finally leave this Thread alone as its a completely pointless debate

To me its not or never will be a question of Boxing vs MMA

Boxing is so clearly the superior sport, i could challenge alot of what has been said here regarding the merits of UFC but really can't be bothered!

The only good thing about this thread is that it has opened my eyes to certain posters here and i'd just hope they move on soon!

Boxing is not in decline and all its problems are self made, nothing to do with any other sport!

Why can I picture Fwank Warren writing this message? Warren or any other leading boxing promoter for that matter. This kind of ignore-it-and-it's-not-there mentality is one of the many reasons boxing is in the state it is right now - and, yes, the numbers do suggest it's declining. As others said, nobody is saying UFC is better than boxing - it's not, and that's why we're all here and not at some MMA forum. We're only pointing out the various departments that the UFC are bossing boxing promoters in right now. Open your eyes and you'll see 'em too.

the UFC can never be compared to boxing due to the fact, the UFC in a sense is like a promoter just like golden boy promotions it is a company. the Sport is MMA which right now is no-where near the size of boxing in general. Without UFC MMA would not exist, or at least be as well known as it is now.

So to compare UFC to boxing you cant get a good comparison due to the fact the UFC is the face of MMA they dont co-promote cards, whereas in boxing alot of promoters co-promote to get the best fights. It has always been the same in MMA the companys are trying to establish themselves as the best which means they are unwilling to co-promote.

So for the UFC to put on a good card that solely relies on them making money, so in general they will try and put on a card which will appeal to the fans. Also another way to look at it is, UFC only put on one big card a month so they have to be sure that the fights on that card are the best they can put on, whereas in boxing there is huge fights almost every week and you can bet that Golden Boy or other big promoters are involved in them, so for boxing to put on great cards mainly becomes more difficult due to the amount of cards they have compared to UFC or any other MMA promotion.

What boxing has over MMA is that boxing is a defined and universal sport.
MMA is a cluster of promotions sheltered under one generic term.

Their is no amateur MMA on a mass scale. No legitimate international
governing bodies and no unified set of rules. To many MMA is the UFC
one promotion....the UFC as succesful as it is, does not define MMA...
even though of late it has set the benchmark.

Boxing is boxing...the sport essentially un changed since John L Sullivan
lost to Corbett.

MMA has not defined it self as a sport in its 80 odd years of modern
history, least of all since 1993 when it became an American obsession.

It has lost its rawness and brutal appeal and is slowly becoming more
and more a skilled profession.

As a fighter the biggest trouble I find with MMA is that I do not know
the rules of the promotion often...how long the rounds are, how many rounds
and what you can and can not do (ie knee to the head of a grounded
opponent, elbows with the point, how long your allowed on the ground
before you are stood up, soccer kicks to the face, etc)....

On the local level MMA lacks judges and refs that are capable and
efficient..often they are 'volunteers' or mates of the promoter and
this often see's lopsided decisions and idiotic refering.

These to the crowd are minor things, but effect how one prepares and
trains for the fight. When training for a boxing match one does not
deal with this.

Another factor is that an entire cards fighters purse is so a small percentage
of the total PPV...where as in boxing a good chunk of the PPV goes to
the fighters....most often the main eventers.

Most smaller shows see that the fighters are paid nothing or very little,
meanwhile the strippers holding the round cards, the MC, the bar and
catering staff get paid...often more than the fighters putting it on
the line and risking it all....

those are the weaknesses of MMA.

MMA has a long way to go as far as being a real sport. As far as its appeal
to fans and the general public...PPV buys and You Tube hits do not lie...
Its ashame that those making the money do not do more to refine and
clean the sport up on the local level.

Ant Evans wrote:We all know what needs to happen to make boxing great again, and I mean great all year round, not just a great fight or night here and there... no more mismatches as main events... less divisions (I'd say maybe 10)... one world title in each division... best have to fight the best in every fight... no more 40-0 records based on bullying German taxi cab drivers... the WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO need to go away... HBO needs a clue... promoters need to put on proper nights out... promoters need to learn how to market and promote in 21st Century... etc etc etc

We have all read/heard/talked about it for year, UFC or not, and yet there's been no change at all...

Easy to say Ant!!!

It is clear the marketting and PR budget available to UFC is huge - in addition UFC has one governing body and one person who takes the large portion of the profits where as boxing has a multitude of promoters and puts on far more shows thus diluting the PR and marketing budgets and due to the number of promoters in a number of countries that also dilutes the quality of fighters until they reach world level.

Due to the smaller proportion of shows UFC puts on and only being one body it can thus throw a massive marketing budget to promote its shows in the various countries - but you can also argue UFC has what we have continually disliked in this country concerning one particular promoter in boxing and that is the monopoly with the TV channels !! thankfully that is no longer the case in boxing.

However what I will completely concede on when the shows are actually on - regardless of the standard of fights - UFC knows 100% how to look after its customers, the media and they pay particular attention to the "show experience" - no stone is left unturned with regards to the way they look after people - the behind the scenes team in the UK pay particular attention to every minute detail - their top man was orignally poached from boxing and did indeed work for Mr W arren when he first started in the sport.

In fact I remember a certain Mr Evans and this other gentleman in the lobby of the Paris Casino in Vegas telling me to go and get changed into a suit as there was a big meeting with the press and UFC - I refused to go as I thought it wrong as Fight Academy had paid my flights and expenses to get to Vegas in the first place - it was just after the Hatton/Urango show that the UFC operation in the UK went huge and I commend you Mr Evans for jumping on the wagon at that early stage!!! - in fact I remember having the misfortune of rooming with you on that particular time!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7775062.stm

exittored wrote:Right ok can we finally leave this Thread alone as its a completely pointless debate

To me its not or never will be a question of Boxing vs MMA

Boxing is so clearly the superior sport, i could challenge alot of what has been said here regarding the merits of UFC but really can't be bothered!

The only good thing about this thread is that it has opened my eyes to certain posters here and i'd just hope they move on soon!

Boxing is not in decline and all its problems are self made, nothing to do with any other sport!

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous post. Anyone who's involved in business (and let's not kid ourselves, professional boxing IS a business) knows that you operate in a competitive context.
Let me spell it out for you - I love boxing, I've never attended a UFC event live and I want boxing to survive and thrive. But to claim that all its problems are self-made and have nothing to do with any other sport ignore the numerous posts on this board pointing out the fact that the new generations are choosing to watch MMA rather than boxing.
Your claim that it's nothing to do with any other sport therefore borders on complete irrelevance as while it isn't the case for you, there are clearly thousands who are choosing UFC whereas in the past they might have been expected to become fans of boxing.
If you can't see the potential threat that trend poses to boxing's long-term health you are deluded.

lowersmiths wrote:

Deserter wrote:

lowersmiths wrote:if this thread had been going 20 years ago, some of you would have been scared stiff by the sight of young kids karate chopping and kung fuing their teenage years away.

ufc is a fad, let's talk again in 20 years and see what has happened.

Totally inaccurate comparison as it's ignoring one massive (and vital) difference.
Despite their increase in participation during that period, karate, kung-fu and Tae-kwon do never managed to break into mainstream spectatorship. Even kick-boxing failed to do this despite its Westernised-format and borrowing from boxing.
This hurdle, which proved insurmountable for the other fighting 'arts', has already been achieved comfortably by UFC/MMA. The numbers don't lie and you can see that in terms of PPV it's already outperforming boxing.
Your ancestors didn't play the violin in Rome by any chance did they?

UFC hasn't broken into mainstream spectatorship. So what if 6,000 tickets get sold for an event easily - Grimsby Town can sell that every Saturday afternoon (well maybe a couple of seasons ago).

Look at boxing on a world scale and MMA on a world scale (ie, try looking at the world around you and not the six inches in front of your face).

MMA is a poor product marketed well in the UK/USA. Boxing is a brilliant product marketed poorly. MMA is nothing in the vast majority of the world.....

I think your points have already been undermined by subsequent posts re. MMA's reach globally, but in relative terms UFC has undoubtedly entered the mainstream in that it is attracting a sizeable number of fans who aren't participants. In business terms it is also gaining support from commercial brands that wouldn't touch boxing with a bargepole and that's important to note as that money will fund further expansion and investment in the product, thereby accelerating its growth.

Robinson wrote:What boxing has over MMA is that boxing is a defined and universal sport.
MMA is a cluster of promotions sheltered under one generic term.

Their is no amateur MMA on a mass scale. No legitimate international
governing bodies and no unified set of rules. To many MMA is the UFC
one promotion....the UFC as succesful as it is, does not define MMA...
even though of late it has set the benchmark.

Boxing is boxing...the sport essentially un changed since John L Sullivan
lost to Corbett.

MMA has not defined it self as a sport in its 80 odd years of modern
history, least of all since 1993 when it became an American obsession.

It has lost its rawness and brutal appeal and is slowly becoming more
and more a skilled profession.

As a fighter the biggest trouble I find with MMA is that I do not know
the rules of the promotion often...how long the rounds are, how many rounds
and what you can and can not do (ie knee to the head of a grounded
opponent, elbows with the point, how long your allowed on the ground
before you are stood up, soccer kicks to the face, etc)....

On the local level MMA lacks judges and refs that are capable and
efficient..often they are 'volunteers' or mates of the promoter and
this often see's lopsided decisions and idiotic refering.

These to the crowd are minor things, but effect how one prepares and
trains for the fight. When training for a boxing match one does not
deal with this.

Another factor is that an entire cards fighters purse is so a small percentage
of the total PPV...where as in boxing a good chunk of the PPV goes to
the fighters....most often the main eventers.

Most smaller shows see that the fighters are paid nothing or very little,
meanwhile the strippers holding the round cards, the MC, the bar and
catering staff get paid...often more than the fighters putting it on
the line and risking it all....

those are the weaknesses of MMA.

MMA has a long way to go as far as being a real sport. As far as its appeal
to fans and the general public...PPV buys and You Tube hits do not lie...
Its ashame that those making the money do not do more to refine and
clean the sport up on the local level.

Good points I,ve been to a lot of cage mma shows over the past ten years supplying fighters and watching, I,ve even promoted one and the fact is most of them outside of the ufc are very poorly done with a poor standard of fighters and officiating.
As in thai and kickboxing there is no board of control which means the promoters can basically make the rules as they go along.(the first time I put an mma fighter out we were informed in the ring on the night that headbutting was allowed)
On the watching side its not as spectacular as it looks on tv as watching through the cage mesh is not the same as the arial camera shots and once the fighters go to the floor its very hard to see whats happening.

The UFC still hasn't even scratched the surface of their potential in America as they are still unsanctioned in certain states, including New York.

And MMA is waaaaaay bigger in Japan than the states. The PRIDE organization used to pack out the 65,000 seat Tokyo Dome everytime they ran a show in it.

ebeneezer wrote:The UFC still hasn't even scratched the surface of their potential in America as they are still unsanctioned in certain states, including New York.

And MMA is waaaaaay bigger in Japan than the states. The PRIDE organization used to pack out the 65,000 seat Tokyo Dome everytime they ran a show in it.

But if PRIDE was that big and profitable in Japan, why was it bought out by UFC?

I remember sitting in Saitama few years ago watching PRIDE with about 30,000 people there seing a great show, great fights, amazing production, prime time TV slot on Japanese TV, the lot. It was the biggest thing going at the time

18 months later they were out of business



Bare that in mind when discussing the wonder of UFC

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:I remember sitting in Saitama few years ago watching PRIDE with about 30,000 people there seing a great show, great fights, amazing production, prime time TV slot on Japanese TV, the lot. It was the biggest thing going at the time

18 months later they were out of business



Bare that in mind when discussing the wonder of UFC

Nothing like telling part of the story to mislead and subvert eh KG?

Pride's management/ownership was heavily 'influenced' by the Japanese mafia. The TV companies that backed Pride backed out when the criminal connections where highlighted in the media.

This left Pride primed for a takeover bid, which White et al instigated.

TerribleTerry wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:I remember sitting in Saitama few years ago watching PRIDE with about 30,000 people there seing a great show, great fights, amazing production, prime time TV slot on Japanese TV, the lot. It was the biggest thing going at the time

18 months later they were out of business



Bare that in mind when discussing the wonder of UFC

Nothing like telling part of the story to mislead and subvert eh KG?

Pride's management/ownership was heavily 'influenced' by the Japanese mafia. The TV companies that backed Pride backed out when the criminal connections where highlighted in the media.

This left Pride primed for a takeover bid, which White et al instigated.

There isnt any aspect of any boxing, wrestling or MMA company that isnt controlled, nevermind 'influenced' by the Yakuza, same with the entertainment business in Japan. Its no secret, everyone knows it and accepts it, its been that way for the last 50 + years.

Anywhere you go to in Japan that is drawing a crown/money and you see dodgy blokes wearing sunglasses and dark suits driving BMW's

Thats not why PRIDE failed

PRIDE failed because they promised too much, couldnt fill area's, couldnt deliver the TV ratings they once did and owed a lot of people money and favours.

Hilarious to think people really beleive PRIDE failed because of "mafia connections"

Gray-Fox wrote:

ebeneezer wrote:The UFC still hasn't even scratched the surface of their potential in America as they are still unsanctioned in certain states, including New York.

And MMA is waaaaaay bigger in Japan than the states. The PRIDE organization used to pack out the 65,000 seat Tokyo Dome everytime they ran a show in it.

But if PRIDE was that big and profitable in Japan, why was it bought out by UFC?

To pillage talent.