BoxRec

MightyWarrior wrote:

stujones wrote:Although in Khan's case there is no WBA Super Champion, Kotelnik is the only WBA champion.

He's listed on boxrec as being the "ordinary" WBA champion, which says it all really.

So is Ali and any holder of that belt now, even pre the days of Super Champion. Nobody condemmed him when he challenged Gavin Rees.

I'm sure people who cared did

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

gobbles wrote:Proliferation of the titles is nothing new. In the old days there was the NBA, IBU, New York and British world titles and that was when the boxing world was basically western Europe and North America, plus a few other outposts.

The problem with one world title is that it gives the champion ridiculous power in negotiations and challengers virtually have to sign their lives away for no pay, unless it's a mandatory. And it is not as if champions defend 4-5 times a year. Some box once or twice a year.

In just about every other sport, a world champion is someone who won a world championship, which everyone was able to enter. Boxing is very different in that way and that is why there is the demand for more champions. What there should be is more support for unifications and less pressure from governing bodies to avoid unifications.

The trouble also is that someone unifies, they are then made a super champ, and only have to defend once every 18 months - then the titles are split and you have a 'regular' world champion - which is clearly bollocks.

This just serves to confuse the hell out of the general public - thats why there are people out there who probably genuinely will believe that Khan is the best light welterweight in the world if he beats Kotelnik - which is very sad indeed.

But Kotelnik is the only WBA champion, so what's the problem with that? Had he fought Paulus Moses, he would have been trying for the lesser WBA lightweight title, but at light-welter, Kotelnik is it.

gobbles wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
This just serves to confuse the hell out of the general public - thats why there are people out there who probably genuinely will believe that Khan is the best light welterweight in the world if he beats Kotelnik - which is very sad indeed.

But Kotelnik is the only WBA champion, so what's the problem with that? Had he fought Paulus Moses, he would have been trying for the lesser WBA lightweight title, but at light-welter, Kotelnik is it.

James has hit the nail on the head as clearly as you can. That's the problem.

Quixall wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:As others have said Khan may not deserve the shot but through the years many have got shots at titles without really "qualifying" for that opportunity. I have said all along Khan is at best Euro standard, although he hasnt as yet proved he is. With so many danger men at LW and LWW I cant see Khan being around too long. The elite in both divisions will beat him and Khan wont want to drop down and fight for a British title or European. Thats the problem with going from the primary school straight into university. Khan hasnt worked his way up so he lacks the experiance he needs to have to survive at world level. Add to that his inability to take a good shot to the head or body and his reign at the top, if he gets there, looks like being short lived. The story of Khan is not about a great fighter, its all about hype and making a small fortune for as long as possible. I can see another Khan crisis before this year ends.

I wrote very similar sentiments earlier in the thread and like you, i can't see Khan being around too long, three years at max. He will lose to the first elite fighter that he faces (Not Kotelnik) and then will have a few comeback fights, go for the elites again, lose and then retire. If Khan had of gone the traditional route to a world title, he would have fallen many fences ago and would be no-where near a wrld title challenge. The fact remains that Khan will always cause certain fighters problems, at whaterver level, because of the hand speed, accuracy, range of shots, hs athleticism and power, but equally, certain fighters will always cause Khan problems, regardless of what level they are at. So, Khan always has an equal chance of winning a one off , supposed "world class" fight, like is the case with Kotelnik, as he is of losing in a one off fight with an "ordinary" fighter, like the Limond's, Gomez' and Prescott's of this world.

I disagree - I'd accept that if any one of Limond, Gomez or Prescott had troubled him, but the fact is that all of them have.
That to me says that he has a far greater chance of losing against the Kotelniks of the world than of winning. He's not shown against even poor opposition that he can get through 12 rounds without being hurt, and the bottom line is the higher level guys will hurt him far more and far more often that the Willie Limonds of the world.
I think Khan has displayed quite clearly that - unless the opposition is so poor he stops them quickly - any fight going more than a couple of rounds will lead to him being hurt. I think on that basis alone he has little or no chance of even winning a one off fight against a genuine world champion. And Kotelnik has a damn sight more than a one eyed Barrera or a well past it Michael Gomez.

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

gobbles wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
This just serves to confuse the hell out of the general public - thats why there are people out there who probably genuinely will believe that Khan is the best light welterweight in the world if he beats Kotelnik - which is very sad indeed.

But Kotelnik is the only WBA champion, so what's the problem with that? Had he fought Paulus Moses, he would have been trying for the lesser WBA lightweight title, but at light-welter, Kotelnik is it.

James has hit the nail on the head as clearly as you can. That's the problem.

I don't think that's true. I can understand how many people in Ireland might think that Bernard Dunne is the best super-bantamweight in the world, because they will have no idea who the other champions are, but Khan will struggle to get away from comparisons with Ricky Hatton now, while Timothy Bradley won his title on peak ITV1. The majority of people who watch boxing are not that ignorant.

gobbles wrote:
I don't think that's true. I can understand how many people in Ireland might think that Bernard Dunne is the best super-bantamweight in the world, because they will have no idea who the other champions are, but Khan will struggle to get away from comparisons with Ricky Hatton now, while Timothy Bradley won his title on peak ITV1. The majority of people who watch boxing are not that ignorant.

I'm not talking about boxing fans - you're right there.

I'm talking about the general public, to whom James refers. I doubt TV will clearly explain the anomaly re Hatton.

Khan, if he wins, will be referred to as 'the world champion' which - crazy as it sounds - might give people the impression he is the, erm, world champion, i.e. THE BEST FIGHTER AT THAT WEIGHT IN THE WORLD.

I'm sick of getting into daft arguments about this. The point is so obvious is shouldn't need stating.

Then again...perhaps the general public won't cough up for it anyway.

DaveyH wrote:I'm sure people who cared did

He was such a bad challenger, he was the betting favourite.

sharpei_louis wrote:

Quixall wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:As others have said Khan may not deserve the shot but through the years many have got shots at titles without really "qualifying" for that opportunity. I have said all along Khan is at best Euro standard, although he hasnt as yet proved he is. With so many danger men at LW and LWW I cant see Khan being around too long. The elite in both divisions will beat him and Khan wont want to drop down and fight for a British title or European. Thats the problem with going from the primary school straight into university. Khan hasnt worked his way up so he lacks the experiance he needs to have to survive at world level. Add to that his inability to take a good shot to the head or body and his reign at the top, if he gets there, looks like being short lived. The story of Khan is not about a great fighter, its all about hype and making a small fortune for as long as possible. I can see another Khan crisis before this year ends.

I wrote very similar sentiments earlier in the thread and like you, i can't see Khan being around too long, three years at max. He will lose to the first elite fighter that he faces (Not Kotelnik) and then will have a few comeback fights, go for the elites again, lose and then retire. If Khan had of gone the traditional route to a world title, he would have fallen many fences ago and would be no-where near a wrld title challenge. The fact remains that Khan will always cause certain fighters problems, at whaterver level, because of the hand speed, accuracy, range of shots, hs athleticism and power, but equally, certain fighters will always cause Khan problems, regardless of what level they are at. So, Khan always has an equal chance of winning a one off , supposed "world class" fight, like is the case with Kotelnik, as he is of losing in a one off fight with an "ordinary" fighter, like the Limond's, Gomez' and Prescott's of this world.

I disagree - I'd accept that if any one of Limond, Gomez or Prescott had troubled him, but the fact is that all of them have.
That to me says that he has a far greater chance of losing against the Kotelniks of the world than of winning. He's not shown against even poor opposition that he can get through 12 rounds without being hurt, and the bottom line is the higher level guys will hurt him far more and far more often that the Willie Limonds of the world.
I think Khan has displayed quite clearly that - unless the opposition is so poor he stops them quickly - any fight going more than a couple of rounds will lead to him being hurt. I think on that basis alone he has little or no chance of even winning a one off fight against a genuine world champion. And Kotelnik has a damn sight more than a one eyed Barrera or a well past it Michael Gomez.

Well for a start, i only said that there was a possibilty of him winning a "supposed" world class fight...

Styles make fights and all i'm saying is that independant of what level a fighter is at, he can run into trouble against a supposed inferior fighter and be more succesful against a more higher calibre fighter. This has been seen with Khan already. He fought and easily beat Gairy St.Clair, who had been a world champion, abeit at a smaller weight and yet struggled and got dropped by Limond a domestic fighter, before overpowering him and was sparked out by a virtual unknown in Prescott.

Khan has many fundamental flaws to his syle, most notably his defence, which has'nt been improved that much by Freddie Roach, other than keeping his hands a bit higher. He is still too straight up, has his chin sticking out, is vunerable on the offensive and is open to counter shots, plus he has the weak chin. But Khan's saving grace is the fast hands, the accuracy, the range of shots and the power that he can generate, through that speed, accuarcy and varied choice of angles.

In this respect, Khan is extremely good and that's why he will always give certain fighters, at whatever level, a whole lot of trouble. I happen to believe that Kotelnik will struggle against Khan's speed and i believe at the higher weight class, he will be bigger and stronger and have more effective punching power. However, where i do agree with you and what i have clearly stated elsewhere, is that i don't consider Khan to be a world class fighter, because he lacks an all round fighting style and has major weaknesses that can't be ironed out, most notably his weak chin. So, whilst i believe that he could cause some fighters at "world" level some trouble and possibly beat them, in general, i feel that he will fall woefully short and get beaten by "elite" and true "world class" fighters at lightweight and light-welterweight.

ie, he will not beat the likes of Pacquaio, Marquez, Valero, Guzman, Campbell, Hatton, Bradley etc etc

An example of what i'm saying would be against a fighter like Katsidis, if he were to win a world title off the back of his recent victory over Jesus Chavez and had a defence against Khan. That would be a winnable fight for Khan, althoug the odds woud be somewhere in the region of 50 - 50

Terry D wrote:It is deceptively simple with Amir, grab a world title, vacate, batter someone small/old/not very good, grab another world title, vacate, is Marquez 99 yet? Nope, Ok, batter someone small/old/not very good, grab a world title, vacate, How is Prescott looking? Still winning, Ok, batter someone...etc.

As of this point I cannot see how people take the whole Khan thing seriously. There is literally nothing to debate, it is what it is, a rather nice facade.

I'm annoyed because this post from Terry has essentially said anything i had to say on this topic.

Okay i'll add he managed to escape disaster thanks to a horrific freak MAB injury, i can't see the stars and planets all alligning once again for Amir. The circus has to end now.

overhand_right wrote:Okay i'll add he managed to escape disaster thanks to a horrific freak MAB injury, i can't see the stars and planets all alligning once again for Amir. The circus has to end now.

if they don't align, wait wait wait, 8 years if necessary beating on fringe contenders, until they do align

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

gobbles wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
This just serves to confuse the hell out of the general public - thats why there are people out there who probably genuinely will believe that Khan is the best light welterweight in the world if he beats Kotelnik - which is very sad indeed.

But Kotelnik is the only WBA champion, so what's the problem with that? Had he fought Paulus Moses, he would have been trying for the lesser WBA lightweight title, but at light-welter, Kotelnik is it.

James has hit the nail on the head as clearly as you can. That's the problem.

yeah sad but true.
sky sports do hype khan up though ,leading to every fight.

Don't worry folks. Kotelnik is going to stop the circus and turn Frankie green again for our viewing pleasure.

Riddick Blowe wrote:Don't worry folks. Kotelnik is going to stop the circus and turn Frankie green again for our viewing pleasure.

Khan will beat Kotelnik......Unless he walks onto one !!

Khan will be bigger and sronger than Kotelnik, he has the fast hands, a good range of shots, can create good angles and will perhaps stop Kotelnik somewhere around the 6th or 7th round. Kotelnik keeps his hands fairly high, but is open to body shots, has'nt got great speed and is a relatively light puncher. I think that Khan will overwhelm him with his speed and accuracy.

Quixall wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:Don't worry folks. Kotelnik is going to stop the circus and turn Frankie green again for our viewing pleasure.

Khan will beat Kotelnik......Unless he walks onto one !!

Khan will be bigger and sronger than Kotelnik, he has the fast hands, a good range of shots, can create good angles and will perhaps stop Kotelnik somewhere around the 6th or 7th round. Kotelnik keeps his hands fairly high, but is open to body shots, has'nt got great speed and is a relatively light puncher. I think that Khan will overwhelm him with his speed and accuracy.

I think you're right with everything up until the stoppage. Khan will dominate early but Kotelnik is as tough as nails and I think he'll ride out the storm then take control in the second half of the fight. Then it'll be a case of can Khan stand up to Kotelniks (relatively light) punch power and if he can, will his early dominance be enough to get the points win?